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Flying Eagle die break to the max

DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭✭✭

I thought this was pretty interesting. Typical location of a die crack on a Flying Eagle Cent. Look at how it progressed in the photo below. It didn't break, but wow!

Doug

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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Don't recall seeing that one. Put some acetone on it and see if it is still there.

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    DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭✭✭

    lol. It's a canyon!

    Doug
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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DMWJR said:
    lol. It's a canyon!

    Possibly a struck thru but probably glue. If the OP tries acetone, we'll know for sure. :wink:

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    TreashuntTreashunt Posts: 6,747 ✭✭✭✭✭

    crud

    Frank

    BHNC #203

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    ldhairldhair Posts: 7,124 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It looks raised in the image.

    Larry

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The two images are not of the same anomaly....different locations... Cheers, RickO

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    DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Well insider, I am he OP. Yes, I know it is not the same die, but this is a common place for breaks on FE's so there are various dies out there that have a break between the U and the Beak. I just picked one of normal ones you see to compare it to this one.

    It was just a curiosity for me. I'll find a photo of the whole coin and you can see how much deterioration there is on the entire die.

    Doug
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    DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This coin was in the March 2017 Kagin auction. Normally this is a raised line between the U and the Beak. This one is not. Maybe something got caught in the crack of the die? I have no idea. Draw your own conclusions.

    Doug
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    FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 5,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    could be a planchet flaw.

    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors
    for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2017 9:07AM

    @DMWJR said:
    Well insider, I am he OP. Yes, I know it is not the same die, but this is a common place for breaks on FE's so there are various dies out there that have a break between the U and the Beak. I just picked one of normal ones you see to compare it to this one.

    It was just a curiosity for me. I'll find a photo of the whole coin and you can see how much deterioration there is on the entire die.

    Thanks but I don't need to see the entire coin - IT IS GLUE!!!!! @FredWeinberg HELP please!!

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    DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Why would there be glue on the die?? I’m with Fred. I think the dues are worn, but there is also a defect in the planchet. There are other similar areas on the coin. I also note a break to the right of the eagle leaving a blob or two on the coin instead of a depression.

    Doug
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    astroratastrorat Posts: 9,221 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What's the material emanating from the top tail feathers and around the M, and RIC in AMERICA?

    The color looks the same.

    I don't think the "glue" comment was about glue on the die, I imagine it was glue/material residue on the coin.

    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2017 9:34AM

    Good question. Let's work through it together.

    Question: If there is glue or any other debris on the die, what will it look like on a struck coin?
    Question: What color is most dried glue?
    Question: How do you get a raised "characteristic" on a coin? What does the die look like?
    Question: Since you posted an image of the coin, what are all the other lumps of glue....never mind.

    Please think about/then answer just the first three to make sure you understand the coin better and I'll help.

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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,563 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:

    @DMWJR said:
    Well insider, I am he OP. Yes, I know it is not the same die, but this is a common place for breaks on FE's so there are various dies out there that have a break between the U and the Beak. I just picked one of normal ones you see to compare it to this one.

    It was just a curiosity for me. I'll find a photo of the whole coin and you can see how much deterioration there is on the entire die.

    Thanks but I don't need to see the entire coin - IT IS GLUE!!!!! @FredWeinberg HELP please!!

    Definitely glue on the coin. Look above STATES.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 5,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks Tom - glue it is !

    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors
    for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
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    DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Despite insider2's piss poor attitude as usual, it does look raised when I blow up the picture of the whole coin. One more reason not to speculate on a coin you don't have in hand. Glue has been the rage lately wow. Geez. A weaker minded person would be tempted not to ever say a word on the boards.

    Doug
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    FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 5,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Except that, as the Capt. first
    pointed out, and I didn't see,
    there is that 'orange-ish' color
    in various areas on the obv.
    of the coin.

    That's not a lamination, a die
    crack, a planchet defect, etc.
    Viewing just the area above
    the eagles' beak, I thought
    at first it could have been a
    planchet flaw.

    It's not that Glue is All The Rage
    now - it's that for some reason,
    finding coins with Glue, and
    posting them (not your coin,
    as I didn't think glue at first either)
    here on CU is All The Rage Now.

    Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors
    for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DMWJR said:
    Despite insider2's piss poor attitude AS USUAL, it does look raised when I blow up the picture of the whole coin. One more reason not to speculate on a coin you don't have in hand. Glue has been the rage lately wow. Geez. A weaker minded person would be tempted not to ever say a word on the boards.

    I am really sorry you feel that way. :'(:'(

    I'll suggest you put me on ignore as a member with a piss poor attitude (ME) tried to help you learn something by asking you a few simple questions from a basic "How Coins are Made" class. I also suggest you never take a coin grading class as the instructors often teach with the Socratic Method.

    What is an example of the Socratic method? The Socratic method is a style of education involving a conversation in which a student is asked to question their assumptions. It is a forum for open-ended inquiry, one in which both student and teacher can use probing questions to develop a deeper understanding of the topic.

    That's the way I learned HOW MUCH I :( DON'T KNOW.

    I'll guarantee you will contribute much more to this thread and your understanding of numismatics by answering my three questions rather than pointing out my >:) faults!

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    DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree Fred. I didn't see it either until I backed off and looked at the whole coin. I'm so used to seeing breaks there on FE's after looking at a few thousand of them, my thought process went right to it. I thought it would be interesting, so I posted it. :smile:

    Yes Insider2 I know a little bit about the socratic method. If you've had a law professor or a Judge use it on you or one of your peers, you would have an understanding and appreciation of it too, as well as when it is appropriate. I see you are a loud board talker too. I'll bet you wouldn't talk down to me in a socratic tone in person.

    My apologies to others. This thread just needs to die.

    Doug
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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DMWJR said: "I'm so used to seeing breaks there on FE's after looking at a few thousand of them, my thought process went right to it. I thought it would be interesting, so I posted it. :smile:"

    The coin is very interesting, thanks for posting it. Please see my final comment below.

    @DMWJR said: "...I know a little bit about the s[S]ocratic method. If you've had a law professor or a Judge use it on you or one of your peers, you would have an understanding and appreciation of it too, as well as when it is appropriate."

    Actually, I tried to get into law school at GWU. I like to discuss things and argue. My only experience with this method of questioning came in Prep school and then in numismatic seminars. For some reason, virtually any time I try it on a coin forum, the person I try to help gets offended and NEVER ANSWERS the questions as has happened in this thread.

    @DMWJR said: "I see you are a loud board talker too."

    I have no idea what you are talking about. I post a lot, I use the limited emoji's here (too bad there are not more) and I have very strong opinions. If "Let's work this out together," is talking down to you or loud, I'll apologize RIGHT NOW. Unfortunately, you came across as a very uninformed novice collector. Sorry.

    BTW, in the interest of numismatic education, this thread is not going to die until the three questions I asked about your coin are answered by someone (I don't have the time right now - I'm soaking some glue off a coin) or until the mods CLOSE IT. Coins such as yours fool lots of folks and they should not. So...

    This is the only image.

    Here is what we know FOR SURE: The characteristic between the beak and "U" is gold colored. It is either raised on the surface or sunken into it (incuse).

    Question: If there is glue or any other debris on the die, what will it look like on a struck coin?
    Question: What color is most dried glue?
    Question: How do you get a raised "characteristic" on a coin? What does the die look like?

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    ldhairldhair Posts: 7,124 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:
    Don't recall seeing that one. Put some acetone on it and see if it is still there.

    First answer and the best answer.

    Larry

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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 30, 2017 8:53PM

    No takers so here goes. This is for those who are curious about their coins....

    Here is what we know FOR SURE: The characteristic between the beak and "U" is gold colored. It is either raised on the surface or sunken into it (incuse).

    Question: What color is most dried glue?

    Most dried glue is golden yellow. Some dry white and some dry clear. Substances such as lacquer look clear but occasionally they have a tint. Lacquer and coatings like it often look greasy and give off rainbow colors. Sometimes they "pool" and become thicker in spots.

    Question: If there is glue or any other debris on the die, what will it look like on a struck coin?

    Anything on a die will be raised on its surface no matter if it is in a recess or on a flat area. When this die strikes a coin, the debris is pressed into the planchet leaving a void in the shape of the debris. If there is some debris on the planchet, it is forced into the planchet also. So, If we look at the OP's image and DECIDE THE MARK IS INCUSE, then that golden mark can be a piece of debris that was either on the die or on the planchet that was struck into the coin. If it no longer fills the hole, it fell out. One other thing can leave a void like that on a coin's surface, a detached lamination.

    Question: How do you get a raised "characteristic" on a coin? What does the die look like?

    If we look at the image and DECIDE THE MARK IS RAISED, then there either had to be a void in the die (the OP thought it was a die break at first) or there must be some foreign material on the coin's surface - that's the case here.

    Simple Summary and not introducing things I have not mentioned here: Raised on the die = incuse on the coin. Incuse on the die = raised on the coin.

    When I looked at the image, the first thing I noticed was the color. I've never seen a translucent golden die break on a coin made out of metal so I suggested acetone.

    I just noticed something else! Note the speckled surface of the coin. It is dark with light patches. Note how the light patches are next to some of the glue chunks. What we are seeing is the normal surface of the coin (dark) and the light patches where the hard glue protected the surface from oxidation before it fell off or was removed. Very often a fingernail is all that's needed to "pop off" the lumps of glue. This should only be done by a professional conservation specialist who is trained in the technique! >:)

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    DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I probably should have mentioned the coin is in a PCGS MS62 holder:

    Doug
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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That is not important at all.

    IMO, the coin is graded correctly! Some MS-62's have a slight amount of rub. You should consider yourself extremely lucky that it was not labeled: Uncirculated, details "Residue." Or, "net" graded as AU-58 due to the rub, glue, and spotting. ;)

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    DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't own the coin. I will sometimes take a particular date in a series and scour every historical auction on line and look at every coin and in every grade auctioned for education and knowledge. That's how I found this MS62 coin in the March Kagin sale. I have learned quite a bit doing this over the years. I can usually only get to about two of the national shows a year, so this helps.

    Doug
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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DMWJR said: "I will sometimes take a particular date in a series and scour every historical auction on line and look at every coin and in every grade auctioned for education and knowledge... I have learned quite a bit doing this over the years."

    What an excellent idea! I tell folks to look at slabs from the top two TPGS to help them learn to grade. With the excellent, enlarged, images such as the one you posted - who needs a coin show?

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    tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,147 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Why do the two eagles look so dissimilar? Beak, mouth, head - all different

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    gonzergonzer Posts: 2,991 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @tradedollarnut said:
    Why do the two eagles look so dissimilar? Beak, mouth, head - all different

    As stated above, two different coins.

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    tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,147 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @gonzer said:

    @tradedollarnut said:
    Why do the two eagles look so dissimilar? Beak, mouth, head - all different

    As stated above, two different coins.

    Yes - but didn’t they use a standardized eagle punch to create the dies in 1858?

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    tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,147 ✭✭✭✭✭

    An the answer is apparently that no they didn’t - review of images on Coin Facts shows that the large and small letter dies have different eagle designs.

    Learned something new today

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    DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭✭✭

    TDN I think the first one I posted was an 1857. But, I will take a look when I can get back to my computer. Of course Rick can speak to the differences better than I, i will try to explain later. I will say that when I took a screen shot I didn’t expect the PCGS forum to blow it up so big. It distorts it somewhat.

    Doug
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    ashelandasheland Posts: 22,694 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It looks like glue on the coin to me.

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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Are you sure? :D

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