Where does historical information come from?
RogerB
Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
The recent thread "1890 Explanation for IGWT motto" has gotten several nice compliments about historical information. Past posts along similar historical lines have also been well received.
This begs the question: "Where does this stuff come from?"
- Most is in the National Archives, but locked away in thousands of manuscript and press copy volumes. The little 1890 letter about IGWT was unknown to anyone until it was digitized along with the rest of this volume and posted here. (The entire volume will be on NNP later this week.)
- The letters get "found" when someone takes the time and resources to digitize original volumes, and then sends them to NNP where anyone can search for interesting material.
- There is certainly a lot more material of historical value and interest available. If more collectors help digitize materials, then we'll see more discoveries.
- Interesting and potential insightful material is not limited to Mint archives. Many community libraries and all states have manuscript archives of businesses, individuals and families. Were some of these involved in numismatics in some form or other?
You will not find this material on-line or on an iphone app. It takes involvement in the hobby and curiosity about the historical foundations of coin collecting to locate "the good stuff."
Thanks for listening!
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Comments
And I'm sure most of us here are thankful you do the "detective work" and SHARE IT FREELY!
All this time I was under the impression that Historical Information came from @RogerB
And I always thank him for sharing it with us here
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb, Ricko
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
I usually get it from you as well Roger
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Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
You beat me to it.................thanks a lot for all your efforts Roger!
Pete
Some numismatic information comes from "fake news". The so-called Confederate Cent story comes to mind even though I know many believe (or want to believe) it.
I agree with above posts. Easily some of the more interesting threads. Thank you for sharing.
A hope is that others might take an interest in finding new things -- you never know what will be on the next page.
Nothing like spending a few hours in the ANS archives with John Dannreuther to inform one of the incredible amount of time some research can consume. Hats off to @RogerB for all he's shared here.
Historical Societies and the ANA are also good sources of information.
old references?
BHNC #203
The amount of archival material out there is staggering. If you walk through the closed stacks at a National Archives location you'll get a sense of the enormity of it all. It won't be digitized in our lifetimes. Newman Portal and other efforts are an important step forward but won't be comprehensive in terms of archival material. As Roger points out, the model for the forseeable future is that researchers will still have to visit physical archives and page through everything. though to be sure modern technology helps somewhat in terms of finding aids, image capture, etc.
But at least all the National Archives material is controlled and is not going anywhere. In terms of preservation, Roger's point #4 (above) is the largest concern -- smaller collections owned by individuals or small institutions that no one knows about, and might disappear if not moved to a more stable repository.
If we could convince universities to give credit for research and allow the interested students to convert written docs to digital(assuming they can read) we might have many more available records. Even with great interest and knowledge, how many collectors have the funds and time to go to the National Archives and spend the time it would require to research the millions of documents that would and is so interesting and useful to collectors. I, too, wish to thank Roger for his work.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
The Archive Master is Bob Julian - he was searching and tape recording material in quantity back in the 1960s. He continues to make diligent, coordinated exploration of a wide range of sources.
PS: Much of our information about colonial-ear coinage and money comes from incidental material in family papers and related archives.
What could be accomplished if a collector in Des Moines, Iowa were to check the local library archives and newspapers for coin collectors? What might be found?
Why did you pick Des Moines? If there is something there you think is worth looking into I will. I wouldn't even know where to start or what to look for on my own.
History is defined by the victors of war
Menomonee Falls Wisconsin USA
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistr...dset.aspx?s=68269&ac=1">Musky 1861 Mint Set
All coin collectors are said to be anal retentive.
Some are just more retentive than others.
I mentioned Des Moines because we know nothing numismatic about the population or history.
Where would I find that information if I was to look for it?
Start with the city library. They probably have a manuscript collection of papers and other materials relating to local families and businesses. Ask the reference librarian and mention the subject of coin collections. (Many local banks and libraries had modest historical collections of coins, minerals, etc.) Check with the local historical society, also.
Old newspapers can be searched for key words such as "coin collection" "rare coins" "coin auction" "gold coins" and so forth. This will likely lead to the names of a few Des Moines area collectors of the past. Some very rare and historical coins lived in small-town collections for many years....Maybe there were some in Des Moines?
I agree the archives records are extremely important in understanding Mint history
BUT, IMO, you forgot something equally important
The coins themselves
For example, the 1838-O half dollars.
From the coins we can actually see sequence of strike, the pressure was so high, the die cracked further each use.
We can also see from the coins, that several 1839-O half dollars used the reverse that was used on the 1838-O half
before one final 1838-O half dollar was struck, and also is the only 1838-O that was polished, and now in the
Smithsonian.
This is but one example, there are many more.
IMO, in many cases, if you do not study and understand the coins themselves, you will not see the whole picture
and sometimes misinterpret the archive records.
Kevin
I agree that the coins are very important. But they are things we have. The archival materials are things we don't have or know about. When examining coins we can only make reasonably informed assumptions. But with related documentation in-hand, we can be much clearer on circumstances, cause and effect, and background.
An example might help. In 2005 I was examining 1907 gold patterns at Smithsonian. I made notes and photos of some unusual features and discussed these with the Collection Manager, but no one knew what the features meant. About 6 month later, I was looking through archival letters at NARA -- page by page. Suddenly, there was a small run of letters from the Engraver and Director describing 1907 pattern eagles and discussing exactly the unusual features seen on the SI coins. [This led to discovery of two 1907 pattern eagles "in the wild" - completely unknown and unsuspected coins. Unfortunately, neither were mine...
]
Another example, among archive letters were several relating to use of Saint-Gaudens' striding Liberty on half eagles. Dies had been made and patterns struck, and examined. I discussed this in print in RAC 1905-1908. Seven years later, John Mercanti showed me a newly located half eagle obverse die - with Saint-Gaudens' design. It was previously unknown and not on any inventory list.
Documents and physical specimens work together, but much documentary information is locked away in manuscript or hundreds of un-examined volumes and boxes. That is why I hope more collectors will engage in archival research.
Roger, I am not disagreeing with the importance of archive records. When studying two cent restrikes, I was able to use
the archive records to absolutely determine when the 1863 patterns and restrikes were made.
But at the same time, I was stressing the importance of studying the coins also, as there is much we can learn from them,
especially in areas such as restrikes, as the Mint was normally hush hush on this subject.
I would respectfully disagree on the "reasonably informed assumptions" regarding coins. The diagnostics and characteristics of coins are physical evidence on the coins and are absolute, they can teach us a great deal. For example
when some coins exhibit die rust and others do not, we can use this to learn the order and perhaps time line they were
struck.
I only stress this as I have seen some articles, where it was obvious that the author did not understand the coins,
for example with the 1894-S dimes and on the 1838-O half dollars. Assumptions were made when they read in between the lines so to speak.
But I fully agree the archive records hold the key to many mysteries in coins, and I believe helps us better understand
those individuals at the Mint who made our history. Obviously I fully believe this as I have been researching the
National Archives for the past 27 years and it has formed the basis for many of my books. I know you have done the
same. At the same time, full and complete research normally requires looking into all aspects and possibilities.
Sorry, I was basing my response to your title and opening statement, not knowing your objective as presented in
your response to me that you were attempting to inspire others to research the archives.
Kevin - Your position and comments are clear and fully appreciated. The advantage of coin examination is that these are available for immediate research. Most documents are not available with only a small percentage ever having been accessed.
It would be great to have collectors checking local archival sources, especially in the Maryland to Massachusetts area (for early collections, etc.)
Thanks for your work with original sources, Roger. I just hope that as much as possible in these archives could be put on line for free access. I don't know what the barriers to having online access to all documents is, though unrelated, even the Warren Commission report is totally online, but not all the original documents connected to it.
Simple answer - funding
I was a frequent visitor to the Philadelphia National Archives, they were on my way to work, usually once a week when
I was working on a book I would stop there on Friday.
I got to know the people there well, especially the Directors, also got to know the Directors in D.C.
We constant spoke of digitizing. This way more people would have access and second, the records could be taken
to a secure facility, less chance of damage from the environment and viewing. Some of these records are carbons and
very flimsy.
The Philadelphia Archives had upgraded their scanners to make digitization easier.
Bottom line was lack of funding for manpower to scan, organize, get the files online.
I believe Robert Julian had received funding from Central States and hired a brother and sister to scan records,
I saw them most times I was there on Fridays. They were primarily doing the largest record, #1.
I was in discussions when the archives on creating the process for doing the digitization, and actually interviewed
for a position with the archives through D.C.
I had pushed for doing Record #11 first for New Orleans. I was in contact with the person in charge of the New
Orleans Mint, who had a great web site, and they were extremely interested in these to post on their site and provide
feedback and links to the Philadelphia site.
In attempting to get funding, I introduced the Director in D.C. to companies in the hobby, such as Whitman, Heritage,
Newman Portal people, and a few others. No one was able to provide financial support.
The last time I spoke with them, they were going to attempt to task this to interns, will have to check on the status.
Kevin
I enjoy reading the research findings posted by Roger...many intriguing facts have been revealed. I am sure that much greater discoveries are still lying hidden in the vast stores of documentation both in government archives and small town libraries etc.. I hope those with the time and interest continue to volunteer their services. Cheers, RickO
The time it takes to research numismatic history when it’s buried like a squirreled away nut , makes for a monumental undertaking. You inspire , Roger. I so much appreciate the teachings we get from you and fellow authors,writers, exhibitors, collectors, etc., It is a large contingency who make up the whole, yet it’s few who do the real work in this field.
I enough people are interested, maybe something can be arranged during the ANA in Philadelphia next summer? Although NARA is now in the suburbs, a van could be chartered for transportation -- or everyone could thumb rides....
Yes, unfortunately it's a long way. I paid uber about $80 from Center City (surge pricing - it was raining).
Yep. It's now cost and time effective for me to drive from DC to NARA Philadelphia. I used to take the train and a short taxi ride....
FYI here's what many of the archive letter volumes look like. The covers are leather but have dried out and now produce orange dust when handled.
