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Quiz for the Day... What Overton Variety am I? And what grade would you assign my originality?

Remember to consider year and strike characteristics when grading!

Comments

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2017 10:55AM

    Nice coin! Not original, O-110 Details VF.

  • OKbustchaserOKbustchaser Posts: 5,440 ✭✭✭✭✭

    what insider said

    Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,887 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2017 5:02PM

    Cool die marriage. Looks like a LDS. Love the obv die break, pointed segments on the rev.

    Shoot the XXX edges if it's raw.
    Lance.

  • 1630Boston1630Boston Posts: 13,772 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is out of my numismatic league so I will sit back and learn :smile:

    Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb

    Bad transactions with : nobody to date

  • scubafuelscubafuel Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What are those "pointed segments" on the reverse? How were they created?

  • 1630Boston1630Boston Posts: 13,772 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Good question/observation @scubafuel :smile:

    Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb

    Bad transactions with : nobody to date

  • TreashuntTreashunt Posts: 6,747 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @scubafuel said:
    What are those "pointed segments" on the reverse? How were they created?

    Per Overton/Parsley:

    " There is a row of pointed segments between scroll & eagle's head"

    Obviously not explanation enough, but apparently neither Overton nor Parsley knew the answer.

    Personally, I always thought that a bolt hit into the reverse die and this was from the side.\

    But, in actuality, who knows.

    Frank

    BHNC #203

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2017 2:05PM

    I've always considered them to be dentil marks from a finished die that damaged the surface (dropped on to) of the die used to strike this coin. If I recall, there is a 2c, Morgan, and an Indian cent with similar marks. I think the error guys believe they are clash marks from the dentils of another die that damaged this one while in the press.

    Someone will know.

  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,887 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 23, 2017 5:08PM

    Actually, no one really does know. There has certainly been speculation. It is one of those intriguing capped bust half mysteries.

    Overton called it "clash marked" when describing the reverse from the die's 3rd and final use in the O.102 marriage. I've heard the bolt theory Frank mentioned (I like it too) though I figure a dropped die is more likely.
    Lance.

  • GoBustGoBust Posts: 586 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Vf30. Lovely original. Nice example of the O-110 R5 die marriage. Dramatic rarity in AU or better. Only one uncirculated known of this tough die marriage and very few AU examples. Should have XXX edge markings (the astounding Kahn/Davignon example) This late die state is avidly sought by bust half nuts. Awesome find!
    I favor the bolt theory myself based on the slanted angle of the defects.

  • ldhairldhair Posts: 7,119 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice coin.

    Larry

  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,887 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I deleted my earlier grade guess because I realized I know the coin and its grade.

    Great to hear from you, GoBust!
    Lance.

  • KindaNewishKindaNewish Posts: 827 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Fantastic! I'm not a bust half nut guy, but things like this may have me rethinking my priorities!

  • BustDMsBustDMs Posts: 1,568 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I subscribe to the bolt theory also. I don’t believe it is a “dropped die” as the arch of a dentil clash is not there. The marks are too straight line for the dentil theory.

    I would grade it a solid VF and like the surfaces as original. This marriage is notoriously weakly struck as are many 1809’s. It would sure look good in my collection! :) Feel free to ship it to me with an invoice B)

    Q: When does a collector become a numismatist?



    A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.



    A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
  • ldhairldhair Posts: 7,119 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I always thought this and the 1880 IHC clash were caused by a dropped die. At the same time, these dies would have been hardened. That leaves a question in my mind. I don't feel we will ever know for sure. Fun coin.

    Larry

  • scubafuelscubafuel Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Are these marks on any other bust half of the period? They also show up on a bust quarter variety, 1806 B-7.

    Marks also in an arc, and also on the reverse. They are up between the clouds and stars on the right...
    Very cool and might discount the bolt theory? Though it could have happened twice.

    image

  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,887 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A dropped die will leave an arc mark of its edge somewhere between a straight line and the curve (or radius) of the die. It all comes down to the angle of impact.

    As I said I like the bolt idea but saying the radius is too big doesn't make sense to me.
    Lance.

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have no idea what may have cause the marks... but I find it interesting how they transform from a V to an I.....I just cannot think of how a die or a bolt would have caused such marks... I guess it truly will remain a mystery. Cheers, RickO

  • 23Pairer23Pairer Posts: 911 ✭✭✭

    Thank you for all the interest in this thread. I love learning anything I can about early bust coinage. I think I'll take a few of my raw bust halves, and pound them with some bolts at home to try to reproduce the marks! Sounds like a great idea, huh?

    The coin is currently entombed in a PCGS F15 slab, attributed O.102 XXX Edge. As I write this, I believe the FedEx man is taking her away back to CA for a re-attribution, and "hopefully" regrading and correct Overton attribution. I'll post the "Corrected" results when I get them.

    PS., Great picture, Lance. Can you post the whole coin for another example?

    @lkeigwin said:
    Actually, no one really does know. There has certainly been speculation. It is one of those intriguing capped bust half mysteries.

    Overton called it "clash marked" when describing the reverse from the die's 3rd and final use in the O.102 marriage. I've heard the bolt theory Frank mentioned (I like it too) though I figure a dropped die is more likely.
    Lance.

    PPS., great looking quarter, ScubaFuel

    @scubafuel said:
    Are these marks on any other bust half of the period? They also show up on a bust quarter variety, 1806 B-7.

    Marks also in an arc, and also on the reverse. They are up between the clouds and stars on the right...
    Very cool and might discount the bolt theory? Though it could have happened twice.

    image

    Bob

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 24, 2017 10:19AM

    @BustDMs said: "I subscribe to the bolt theory also. I don’t believe it is a “dropped die” as the arch of a dentil clash is not there. The marks are too straight line for the dentil theory. "

    ...and too curved for a bolt. Plus, bolts are not floating around the engraving shop. Note that the deepest part of the damage is in the center of the mark. IMO, something really heavy (DIE CYLINDER ?) made that mark. :smiley:

    OP, while I'm not qualified to grade for PCGS, IMO, your coin is VF as there is mint luster all over it! Opps! I already wrote that. Anyway, I believe your coin was NET GRADED due to the black surface (ED). It is a poster child for a flatly struck VF. Crack it out.

  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,475 ✭✭✭✭✭

    nice coin

  • BustDMsBustDMs Posts: 1,568 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:
    @BustDMs said: "I subscribe to the bolt theory also. I don’t believe it is a “dropped die” as the arch of a dentil clash is not there. The marks are too straight line for the dentil theory. "

    ...and too curved for a bolt. Plus, bolts are not floating around the engraving shop. Note that the deepest part of the damage is in the center of the mark. IMO, something really heavy (DIE CYLINDER ?) made that mark. :smiley:

    In my opinion this damage to the die DID NOT happen in the engraving shop. It happened IN THE COINING PRESS. Again, my opinion but where else would the force needed to damage the die occur? A foreign object, bolt or screw, fell into the coining chamber and the press cycled damaging the die. Now you ask, why didn’t the obverse die become damaged, right? Well.....maybe a planchet intervened absorbing the hit. All we can come up with is conjecture but the force needed to damage a die like this is well above that from merely dropping something on a die, even an unannealed one.

    Another short thought.......the damage occurred during the O110 die marriage. The obverse die developes a die crack. Could the two things be related?

    God, I love the questions these old coins create.

    Now maybe someone could solve the mystery of the E & L Quarters!

    Q: When does a collector become a numismatist?



    A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.



    A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
  • scubafuelscubafuel Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭✭✭

    In looking at Lance's closeup of the 1809 reverse, I'm starting to think that the V shaped marked were caused by two passes of the same damaging item, rather than being laid down all at once. Thoughts?
    I think I can see what looks like overlap.

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