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Questionable Toning on a Gold $50 Reverse Proof Buff???

...my buddy had me hold onto some stuff for him while he left the country and I noticed one of his gold coins has some odd coloring going on. I don't think he got this one directly from the mint if I recall correctly....here are some photo's of naked coin and on scale for weight. I'm not a gold guy but my guess is copper spots, but it's a .9999 fine 24k gold coin so I'm confused? Help me ;)

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    291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,942 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Maybe it's only .9998 fine >:)

    All glory is fleeting.
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    Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,636 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That Toning makes it a cull / get rid of it.

    So Cali Area - Coins & Currency
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    rawteam1rawteam1 Posts: 2,472 ✭✭✭

    He musta took it out 1 day and an Indian head penny musta somehow touched and sat leaned against the bottom left side???...

    keceph `anah
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    TomBTomB Posts: 20,731 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If I recall correctly, some of the gold Buffalo coins developed reddish spots over time. Also, and again this is hazy, but I seem to recall some speculation that it might have been due to oils used in the minting process. No doubt there will be some information contained within old threads on the boards.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
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    jwittenjwitten Posts: 5,077 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am a collector of toned gold, but I don't think I have any .999 that have toned. Not really sure on this one.

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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 3, 2017 5:04PM

    The copper spots on that coin can be easily removed when the owner is ready. BTW, that is NOT CONSIDERED QUESTIONAL TONING!

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    stevebensteveben Posts: 4,596 ✭✭✭✭✭

    unfortunate copper spotting...i still like that coin!

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    ChrisRxChrisRx Posts: 5,619 ✭✭✭✭

    Not a fan, personally.

    image
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    RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2017 9:25AM

    These are caused by particulate contamination, not the gold. Where it occurred is the question. Most contamination seems to occur when the coin is removed from the original package; however, several world mints have reported this problem internally. [Austria, China, Poland, others.]

    [PS: The cause-effect relationships have been independently identified by several technical researchers connected with national mints and by university researchers, and the results published.]

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    3keepSECRETif2rDEAD3keepSECRETif2rDEAD Posts: 4,285 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks guys! @Insider2 if he wants it gone will silver dipping solution work or is there a different approach to gold? For the record, I have already given him his stuff back so I won't be attempting anything but I am curious though?

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    CascadeChrisCascadeChris Posts: 2,517 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks like pinhole 2x2 "toning"

    The more you VAM..
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    CoinCrazyPACoinCrazyPA Posts: 2,899 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2017 2:29AM

    I haven't seen it on any Buffalos but it looks like a lot of Chinese Pandas with copper spots. Quick dip will remove it for a while.

    Positive BST transactions: agentjim007, cohodk, CharlieC, Chrischampeon, DRG, 3 x delistamps, djdilliodon, gmherps13, jmski52, Meltdown, Mesquite, 2 x nibanny, themaster, 2 x segoja, Timbuk3, ve3rules, jom, Blackhawk, hchcoin, Relaxn, pitboss, blu62vette, Jfoot13, Jinx86, jfoot13,Ronb

    Successful Trades: Swampboy,
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    air4mdcair4mdc Posts: 799 ✭✭✭✭

    Another fine piece of high premium garbage put out from the USM. I have a gold Kennedy that spotted just like yours about nine months after our hosts holdered the coin.
    I will never buy gold from them again. I would rather give my premium to a dealer of a holdered coin.

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    ElKevvoElKevvo Posts: 4,064 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have a gold buff that has a small red spot on the obverse face. Looks like a pimple. It has been there since day 1 when it was received from the Mint. It was the series that the Mint put in the little red boxes vs. other types of packaging. Doesn't really bother me but I am sure some would consider it a distraction.

    K

    ANA LM
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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would agree that it is likely particulate contamination .... Gold of that purity should not be displaying copper spots...It is claimed to be pure gold, not alloyed....Composition: 24 karat (.9999 ) fine gold
    Weight: 1.0001 troy ounce (31.1035 g). That being said, in the picture, it sure looks like copper spots. Cheers, RickO

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    TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,848 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sumting wong

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    DrBusterDrBuster Posts: 5,307 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Chief Snot Rocket variety

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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @3keepSECRETif2rDEAD said: "If he wants it gone will silver dipping solution work or is there a different approach to gold?"

    One method used is coin dip. Another method is semi-proprietary. It "may" be discussed in Brian's ANA classes. He worked at NCS for a while.

    @TwoSides2aCoin, Roger is partially correct. Foreign debris laying on the surface do cause these stains to gold. I believe in an attempt to keep things simple, Roger chose to not explain any further. Very often there is some foreign material embedded into the coin (usually black in color) or part of the alloy. The embedded material causes stains. Additionally, a tiny, localized "glitch" in compositional concentration of the alloy can also react to the environment causing the stain. This coin shows a similar reaction as all U.S. gold with copper spotting.

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    KellenCoinKellenCoin Posts: 1,193 ✭✭✭✭

    That just looks plain weird.

    YN Member of the ANA, ANS, NBS, EAC, C4, MCA, PNNA, CSNS, ILNA, TEC, and more!
    Always buying numismatic literature and sample slabs.

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    MilesWaitsMilesWaits Posts: 5,310 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Gold Pandas do the same.

    Now riding the swell in PM's and surf.
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    JBKJBK Posts: 14,762 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is very farfetched, but if these spots happen to gold alloys, but this is a pure gold coin, could it be a wrong planchet error? (If so the general color should be off).

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    ronctxronctx Posts: 106 ✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2017 9:58AM

    @Insider2 said:

    Very often there is some foreign material embedded into the coin (usually black in color) or part of the alloy. The embedded material causes stains.

    Is that what this is on this Gold Buffalo?

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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Need better photo, Take three more and ROTATE the coin in each shot.

    1. Date at the bottom (posted above).
    2. Date at 3 o'clock
    3. Date at 12 o'clock
    4. Date at 9 o'clock

    So far, it looks like your coin may have a scrape that "looks" black in the photo.

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    AMRCAMRC Posts: 4,266 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There is no copper in that coin so I find it hard to accept it as a copper spot. More than likely, this is something that got on the coin and is reacting. I am sure the gold underneath is just fine as gold is a very stable metal. In this case, I would just try and take it off and it will more than likely come off cleanly.

    Gold does not tarnish. If you have toned gold coins it is not the gold that is producing a color change, it is what is on the coin.

    MLAeBayNumismatics: "The greatest hobby in the world!"
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    jwittenjwitten Posts: 5,077 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @AMRC said:
    If you have toned gold coins it is not the gold that is producing a color change, it is what is on the coin.

    Or the impurities in less than 24k gold



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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @AMRC said: "There is no copper in that coin so I find it hard to accept it as a copper spot. More than likely, this is something that got on the coin and is reacting. I am sure the gold underneath is just fine as gold is a very stable metal. In this case, I would just try and take it off and it will more than likely come off cleanly."

    Agree, nevertheless, that's what they resemble so that's what they are called. :wink:

    @AMRC continued: "Gold does not tarnish. If you have toned gold coins it is not the gold that is producing a color change, it is what is on the coin."

    Or in it! :wink:

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    stevebensteveben Posts: 4,596 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @AMRC said:
    There is no copper in that coin so I find it hard to accept it as a copper spot. More than likely, this is something that got on the coin and is reacting. I am sure the gold underneath is just fine as gold is a very stable metal. In this case, I would just try and take it off and it will more than likely come off cleanly.

    Gold does not tarnish. If you have toned gold coins it is not the gold that is producing a color change, it is what is on the coin.

    yes, but .9999 coins do develop spots that resemble copper spotting. i have owned many, unfortunately. it happens. even pcgs acknowledges there is a spotted/non-spotted market for gold pandas (also .9999 pure).

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    ronctxronctx Posts: 106 ✭✭✭

    @ronctx said:

    @Insider2 said:

    Very often there is some foreign material embedded into the coin (usually black in color) or part of the alloy. The embedded material causes stains.

    Is that what this is on this Gold Buffalo?

    Well, this is rather embarrassing. The coin is still Mint sealed and after carefully wiping down the material (not the coin, of course) the black disappeared. So, apparently, it was on the Mylar sheet (or whatever is used) instead of the coin.

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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ronctx said:

    @ronctx said:

    @Insider2 said:

    Very often there is some foreign material embedded into the coin (usually black in color) or part of the alloy. The embedded material causes stains.

    Is that what this is on this Gold Buffalo?

    Well, this is rather embarrassing. The coin is still Mint sealed and after carefully wiping down the material (not the coin, of course) the black disappeared. So, apparently, it was on the Mylar sheet (or whatever is used) instead of the coin.

    Happens to all of us! I could tell some stories... :wink:

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    3keepSECRETif2rDEAD3keepSECRETif2rDEAD Posts: 4,285 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2017 1:14PM

    ...Thanks for all for the replies!...I decided to let my boy know the coin is absolutely ruined and only worth half of spot...I'll take it off his hands for 20% back of that...It feels good to help out every once in a while ;)

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    AMRCAMRC Posts: 4,266 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I will say it again, GOLD does not tarnish. That Buffalo is supposed to be 4-9's. No copper, no alloy, no nothing. If you are seeing something on that coin, it either has to be from some foreign material deposited on the coin, OR the coin is not .9999 Fine. Take your pick, but my money is on an errant sneeze. :-)

    MLAeBayNumismatics: "The greatest hobby in the world!"
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    AMRCAMRC Posts: 4,266 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @3keepSECRETif2rDEAD said:
    ...Thanks for all for the replies!...I decided to let my boy know the coin is absolutely ruined and only worth half of spot...I'll take it off his hands for 20% back of that...It feels good to help out every once in a while ;)

    Put this down as "things a dealer can never say."

    MLAeBayNumismatics: "The greatest hobby in the world!"
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    NotSureNotSure Posts: 2,978 ✭✭✭

    @AMRC said:
    I will say it again, GOLD does not tarnish. That Buffalo is supposed to be 4-9's. No copper, no alloy, no nothing. If you are seeing something on that coin, it either has to be from some foreign material deposited on the coin, OR the coin is not .9999 Fine. **Take your pick, but my money is on an errant sneeze. :-)

    **> @Cougar1978 said:

    That Toning makes it a cull / get rid of it.

    It's .9999, I've GOT to agree with the booger theory, which, unfortunately, leads me to agree with the 'cull/get rid of it', though I think cull is a tad harsh....but still close enough, unfortunately...I love this design/coin!!! Sell it and use the proceeds (or use it in trade) to purchase another.

    I'll come up with something.
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    ronctxronctx Posts: 106 ✭✭✭
    edited October 4, 2017 8:06PM

    Well, this is interesting.

    I was concerned about the black places on the cheek and when I checked it closer, I noticed these 2 spots. One looks like what's on the Proof, a reddish color and the other spot is black. Both of these spots appears to be on the coin. They were not present when it was bought in 2014 and there doesn't appear to be any pin holes in the Mylar (Mint sealed). The spots can be seen in any direction the coin is rotated.

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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2017 8:42AM

    Hey, what are you trying to do? Everyone knows that PURE GOLD DOES NOT TARNISH!

    Perhaps, this very commonly encountered example will help disprove that uninformed belief. Due to my very limited experience handling pure gold (also a few pure gold coins), I regard that "myth" to be the same as the earth is flat...LOL. >:)

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    derrybderryb Posts: 36,209 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2017 9:21AM

    pure gold is 1.000 fine. The buffalo is displaying the .001 that is not pure. Does not affect gold value of coin and should only be of a concern to someone who collects TPG labels. Not common for .999 gold but it does occur. shame it happened to the only reverse proof gold buff the mint has issued, these deserve a TPG label.

    I don't consider this toning. I view it as copper spotting.

    Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar

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    AMRCAMRC Posts: 4,266 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:
    Hey, what are you trying to do? Everyone knows that PURE GOLD DOES NOT TARNISH!

    Perhaps, this very commonly encountered example will help disprove that uninformed belief. Due to my very limited experience handling pure gold (also a few pure gold coins), I regard that "myth" to be the same as the earth is flat...LOL. >:)

    Ugh.....

    MLAeBayNumismatics: "The greatest hobby in the world!"
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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2017 12:44PM

    As I recall, that's what Tonto replied to the Long Ranger in one episode when he was asked how the beans tasted.

    PS I just read about the ANAS. I'll look you up if you ever come east. :wink:

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