So what is the rarest Morgan Dollar(s) variety? How about Scarface variety for one?

afford

I am not into VAMS when VAMS are impossible to distinguish. But I do have a great appreciation for a great variety!

cmerlo1

1921-D VAM-1X2 comes to mind:

vamworld.com/1921-D+VAM-1X2

messydesk

Hard to say. There are many that are extremely difficult to find. The rarest is probably one of the 8TF varieties, perhaps VAM 14.17 or 14.12. More eyes have been on 8TF varieties than the rest of the series, and the populations for these are still in the single digits, I think. Lots of dies fell apart right away with the 8TF series, with some probably striking no more than a couple hundred coins. 89 VAM 23A also comes to mind. Strongest Morgan clash there is, you don't need a glass to see it, and also with single-digit pops.

There are many "one known" VAMs, but only because nobody has bothered to look for the second one.

Edit: Yes, 21-D VAM 1X2 as well. Only one of the full cud specimens has been found, and people have been looking hard for this one. More recently, earlier die stages have been found showing only the cracks together with diagnostic die scratches that match the coin with the cud.

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yosclimber

Here is "Scar Face", if you are not already familiar with it:
vamworld.com/1888-O+VAM-1B
ssdcvams.com/VAMview9.pdf
For the true "Scar Face" (crack in face), the PDF lists the Harrison die stages and rarities as:
1888-O VAM-1B-H7 R8
1888-O VAM-1B-H8 R6/7
1888-O VAM-1B-H9 R6/7
1888-O VAM-1B-H10 R?

Regulated

1878 8TF VAM-9 First Die Pair in Specimen is unique (if you don't count the horribly cleaned one in the Rutherford B. Hayes Presidential Library). I believe that ten were struck.

PCGS SP63CAM

messydesk

@Regulated said:
1878 8TF VAM-9 First Die Pair in Specimen is unique (if you don't count the horribly cleaned one in the Rutherford B. Hayes Presidential Library). I believe that ten were struck.

12 presentation pieces were struck according to accounts of the festivities. The Hayes specimen is a real dog. I have seen a different specimen than the one you show. At least I hope I did. I remember it being quite toned.

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yosclimber

Quoting from Harrison's 2007 article in the PDF:

Die Stage 9 has a die break extending beyond the jaw line, but ends short of the hair.
Die Stage 10 The die break extends into the hair and nearly crosses into the second lock.

No R# was given for H10.
Perhaps @messydesk knows of rarity estimates that have been made published since this 2007 article.

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mustangmanbob

A common date with absolutely no varieties attributed is the rarest variety.

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yosclimber

@afford said:
can we assume H9 is a tad rarer than h10 - is that incorrect?

I don't know.
Harrison gave prices for both H9 and H10 in his article.
The prices for H10 were higher, but demand would be higher since the cracks are longer/wider.
So supply could be less or more.

cmerlo1

@yosclimber said:

@afford said:
can we assume H9 is a tad rarer than h10 - is that incorrect?

I don't know.
Harrison gave prices for both H9 and H10 in his article.
The prices for H10 were higher, but demand would be higher since the cracks are longer/wider.
So supply could be less or more.

I sold an ANACS MS63 H7 about 8 years ago for $2000.

messydesk

The 88-O Scarface coins are much more common than the ultra-rare 8TF, although H7-10 are still quite rare. They are also almost always found in BU, as opposed to some of the 8TFs only being found circulated. Back before I started collecting VAMs, Jeff Oxman told of breaking up a roll of later die stage Scarfaces and selling them for $150 each. They are quickly absorbed into the market, and because of being able to be identified from across a room, difficult to cherrypick in the later stages.

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garrynot

@messydesk said:
The 88-O Scarface coins are much more common than the ultra-rare 8TF, although H7-10 are still quite rare. They are also almost always found in BU, as opposed to some of the 8TFs only being found circulated. Back before I started collecting VAMs, Jeff Oxman told of breaking up a roll of later die stage Scarfaces and selling them for $150 each. They are quickly absorbed into the market, and because of being able to be identified from across a room, difficult to cherrypick in the later stages.

Has a Scarface been found yet prior to the die break? I think they were dubbing it Harrison 0 ?

messydesk

@afford said:
John,
do you know what the rarity # is for the H10 and is it the rarer than H9? Do you own an example if so which H#?
Thanks

I really don't like trying to assign rarity numbers to Morgan dollars, because they're often abused to infer value and all it takes is a roll of something to show up to mess with them. Relative rarity among die pairs of a specific date (or in this case, among die stages) is more important. H9 might actually be more rare than H10, as I've seen H10 more often than H9. I don't actually have a late scarface, but I have an H5 somewhere.

messydesk

@garrynot said:

@messydesk said:
The 88-O Scarface coins are much more common than the ultra-rare 8TF, although H7-10 are still quite rare. They are also almost always found in BU, as opposed to some of the 8TFs only being found circulated. Back before I started collecting VAMs, Jeff Oxman told of breaking up a roll of later die stage Scarfaces and selling them for $150 each. They are quickly absorbed into the market, and because of being able to be identified from across a room, difficult to cherrypick in the later stages.

Has a Scarface been found yet prior to the die break? I think they were dubbing it Harrison 0 ?

Yes, and Ash calls it H0, and Leroy Van Allen cataloged it as VAM 1B0. No cracks at all on the obverse, but die gouge on the reverse through AMER. This could be the rarest, but it's also the most able to "fly under the radar," so the jury is still out. Even if it is the rarest die stage, the general demand for it isn't as large as that for the H8-H10 stages.

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garrynot

@messydesk said:

@garrynot said:

@messydesk said:
The 88-O Scarface coins are much more common than the ultra-rare 8TF, although H7-10 are still quite rare. They are also almost always found in BU, as opposed to some of the 8TFs only being found circulated. Back before I started collecting VAMs, Jeff Oxman told of breaking up a roll of later die stage Scarfaces and selling them for $150 each. They are quickly absorbed into the market, and because of being able to be identified from across a room, difficult to cherrypick in the later stages.

Has a Scarface been found yet prior to the die break? I think they were dubbing it Harrison 0 ?

Yes, and Ash calls it H0, and Leroy Van Allen cataloged it as VAM 1B0. No cracks at all on the obverse, but die gouge on the reverse through AMER. This could be the rarest, but it's also the most able to "fly under the radar," so the jury is still out. Even if it is the rarest die stage, the general demand for it isn't as large as that for the H8-H10 stages.

Thanks John, I'd be glad to take an H0, lol.

ricko

I have never checked for VAM's....and probably do not have any special one's.... that being said, with the quantity of Morgans I have, there should be a few in there..... just never been an area of interest for me. Cheers, RickO

TwoSides2aCoin

I could call one of the top registry VAM guys. Some may know him. Larry Eakins. Great guy. A tranny type. I mean he rebuilds transmissions.

coindeuce

@Regulated said:
1878 8TF VAM-9 First Die Pair in Specimen is unique (if you don't count the horribly cleaned one in the Rutherford B. Hayes Presidential Library). I believe that ten were struck.

PCGS SP63CAM

David, if I ever get to have this coin in hand in the present holder, make sure you have a defibrillator handy.

AUandAG

1881-s Wounded eagle is extremely difficult to find. 36 graded at PCGS in all grades.

bob

TwoSides2aCoin

Funny thing: I called my friend "the tranny guy" this morning and asked him this very question. His answer was "Give me a year ". Meaning there are many many "rarer" and "tough" coins out there. As usual, the most expensive (it appears), are the higher graded specimens of each particular one.

Regulated

David, if I ever get to have this coin in hand in the present holder, make sure you have a defibrillator handy.

Just imagine how I felt when I got it back in that holder after 5 years of research.

Crypto

I wouldn't put much weight in any of the R number for any VAMs. At best they are complete guesses and worst they are sales tools.

CascadeChris

@Regulated said:

David, if I ever get to have this coin in hand in the present holder, make sure you have a defibrillator handy.

Just imagine how I felt when I got it back in that holder after 5 years of research.

Wait, you own that one?? Interested in a trade for my first born!?

RogerB

1895-P circulation strike...?