A couple of links to look into: I will state outright that there are alot more people that are significantly more qualified and experienced in this field of research and I cannot state beyond a reasonable doubt that any of these coins are AT, I notice a very similar suspect look on many of them-most from the 83-o,84-o,and 85-o instead of my normal seeing 79,s, 80-s, 81-s, 82-s.
I will point out that the diamond industry has been heavily plagued over the last couple of years with lab grown diamonds that are even more perfect than nature made pieces. It used to be thought that in order to get a diamond, parts of carbon needed to be exposed to very specific conditions and pressures for millions of years. Now, some of the lab grown specimens are fooling some of the biggest experts around the world. Does Lab grown diamonds mean that its not a "real" diamond? Its very real and exhibits the same strengths and properties of "natural grown" diamonds from millions of years. A main reason they are not as acceptable is that the companies who handle "real" diamonds are loosing billions to lab grown buyers and create smear campaigns against the lab specimens.
Toning is something that used to be thought to need specific conditions for tremendous amounts of time. Today's coin chemists have learned by trial and error to create the exact same colors and patterns by speeding up the process. Does this mean its not real? oh its real. It has just been helped along. Ultimately the only thing that will make the difference once the AT/NT debate dies down is what the market is willing to accept. People are going to stop spending 10,20,30,40,$50 thousand dollars on super pretty toners once it becomes known among the masses that the colors can and are being replicated. I dont know for sure where on the timeline we are in creating the uber cool toners but I imagine we are not that far away...
okay, GC is not the only enabler-all auction companies are. I say buy the toners w/cac only because you know one of the best graders out there double checked it for you, no lost sleep wondering.
coin docs are masters at AT stuff. its a crime they won't use their abilities for good purposes
@joebb21 - If all of those were made in a lab (some appear to be from the same submission), then I think it is absolutely terrifying. I hope this doesn't hurt the rainbow toned coin market.
A PNG dealer would need to disclose known AT under the PNG Code of Ethics even if the coin was slabbed. In the case of a PNG dealer, the issue is whether the dealer knows a particular coin is AT or not, and it seems this is uncertain for this coin. If the dealer is not a member of the PNG, as appears to be the case here, this is also not an issue.
I will agree that the toning progression of the ASE and Peace dollar are not equivalent. I would also agree that the toning progression on the Peace dollar, by itself, seems appropriate.
I would disagree with the assertion that a toned coin demonstrating an appropriate toning progression is automatically OK.
@BryceM said:
I will agree that the toning progression of the ASE and Peace dollar are not equivalent. I would also agree that the toning progression on the Peace dollar, by itself, seems appropriate.
I would disagree with the assertion that a toned coin demonstrating an appropriate toning progression is automatically OK.
I will agree with your agree. I would also agree with your next agree.
I will agree with your disagree in that I disagree with those that agree that appropriate toning progression that is similar to AT toning is automatically not OK.
Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
I will also state having handled and seen both major toners and some of the possible/probable AT coins..
Many of the AT coins have a freshly painted look to them in that it appears like water colors have been added to the surface instead of what I believe more of the NT coins I have seen that the toning appears to be deeper in the metal.
Perhaps this comment does not make sense and its just one of those "you know it when you see it" or "Ive seen millions of coins and can just tell this one looks off though Im not sure why" idea.
CNNCOIN who has been around 25+ more years than me and has much more experience said he saw this coin in hand and believes strongly this coin is NT. I of course would trust his opinion-however the look does have some very familiar appearances to some morgans Ive seen...and I questioned it as such
@specialist said:
okay, GC is not the only enabler-all auction companies are. I say buy the toners w/cac only because you know one of the best graders out there double checked it for you, no lost sleep wondering.
coin docs are masters at AT stuff. its a crime they won't use their abilities for good purposes
If I have an 81-S with $1000 natural color in a 64 holder and CAC grades it 63, whatever am I to do?
If I could guess one area where many premiums would hold up with color "pollution" of this quality, it would be Morgans..
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
@specialist said:
okay, GC is not the only enabler-all auction companies are. I say buy the toners w/cac only because you know one of the best graders out there double checked it for you, no lost sleep wondering.
coin docs are masters at AT stuff. its a crime they won't use their abilities for good purposes
If I have an 81-S with $1000 natural color in a 64 holder and CAC grades it 63, whatever am I to do?
If I could guess one area where many premiums would hold up with color "pollution" of this quality, it would be Morgans..
Exactly. That was the point I made after @specialist made his original comment about GC.
@Kyle said:
Great Collections sending every coin consigned to CAC doesn't solve the problem of AT coins either. If a toned coin failed to sticker because JA saw it as a "C level" coin? Would you assume that the toning is artificial?
I can't speak for the coin in OP because I haven't seen enough Peace dollars with toning. However; I did find this one in the wild last year- was from one of those cardboard 20th century type set frames meant to be hung on the wall. The colorful toning occured on the reverse of the Peace dollar; the side that was against the cardboard. The obverse has somewhat brown/golden toning close to the date that was against the glass of the frame- no color of premium.
While the lighting is not the same, what I want to point out, and this is not definitive, is that color intensity on one side from more immediate contact with the storage medium is more mellow and even on the other side, where the gas molecules were more dispersed. That's poorly stated, but the mellow consistent lack of a pattern on the reverse of the GC coin "sniffs right" as a product of this phenomenon. I do not see this faked. It is not rich enough to mask many marks below it effectively, and by itself adds little in terms of appeal.
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
I don't know if it's AT or NT but it's certainly Market Acceptable seeing what the coin realized
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@PocketArt said:
I can't speak for the coin in OP because I haven't seen enough Peace dollars with toning. However; I did find this one in the wild last year- was from one of those cardboard 20th century type set frames meant to be hung on the wall. The colorful toning occured on the reverse of the Peace dollar; the side that was against the cardboard. The obverse has somewhat brown/golden toning close to the date that was against the glass of the frame- no color of premium.
I think op coin might look more correct on a Morgan. Not what I expect to see on a peace dollar. I am not going to post any "qualification " but I did collect and study then for quite some time.
Not ma for my wallet.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
@specialist said:
okay, GC is not the only enabler-all auction companies are. I say buy the toners w/cac only because you know one of the best graders out there double checked it for you, no lost sleep wondering.
coin docs are masters at AT stuff. its a crime they won't use their abilities for good purposes
If I have an 81-S with $1000 natural color in a 64 holder and CAC grades it 63, whatever am I to do?
If I could guess one area where many premiums would hold up with color "pollution" of this quality, it would be Morgans..
@specialist said:
okay, GC is not the only enabler-all auction companies are. I say buy the toners w/cac only because you know one of the best graders out there double checked it for you, no lost sleep wondering.
coin docs are masters at AT stuff. its a crime they won't use their abilities for good purposes
If I have an 81-S with $1000 natural color in a 64 holder and CAC grades it 63, whatever am I to do?
If I could guess one area where many premiums would hold up with color "pollution" of this quality, it would be Morgans..
@specialist said:
okay, GC is not the only enabler-all auction companies are. I say buy the toners w/cac only because you know one of the best graders out there double checked it for you, no lost sleep wondering.
coin docs are masters at AT stuff. its a crime they won't use their abilities for good purposes
If I have an 81-S with $1000 natural color in a 64 holder and CAC grades it 63, whatever am I to do?
If I could guess one area where many premiums would hold up with color "pollution" of this quality, it would be Morgans..
@specialist said:
okay, GC is not the only enabler-all auction companies are. I say buy the toners w/cac only because you know one of the best graders out there double checked it for you, no lost sleep wondering.
coin docs are masters at AT stuff. its a crime they won't use their abilities for good purposes
If I have an 81-S with $1000 natural color in a 64 holder and CAC grades it 63, whatever am I to do?
If I could guess one area where many premiums would hold up with color "pollution" of this quality, it would be Morgans..
I don't know if it's AT or NT but it's certainly Market Acceptable seeing what the coin realized
mark
The price realized says nothing about the market acceptability IMHO. It only takes two bidiots to drive the price up.
There was only two bidders?
m
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@specialist said:
okay, GC is not the only enabler-all auction companies are. I say buy the toners w/cac only because you know one of the best graders out there double checked it for you, no lost sleep wondering.
coin docs are masters at AT stuff. its a crime they won't use their abilities for good purposes
If I have an 81-S with $1000 natural color in a 64 holder and CAC grades it 63, whatever am I to do?
If I could guess one area where many premiums would hold up with color "pollution" of this quality, it would be Morgans..
@specialist said:
okay, GC is not the only enabler-all auction companies are. I say buy the toners w/cac only because you know one of the best graders out there double checked it for you, no lost sleep wondering.
coin docs are masters at AT stuff. its a crime they won't use their abilities for good purposes
If I have an 81-S with $1000 natural color in a 64 holder and CAC grades it 63, whatever am I to do?
If I could guess one area where many premiums would hold up with color "pollution" of this quality, it would be Morgans..
@specialist said:
okay, GC is not the only enabler-all auction companies are. I say buy the toners w/cac only because you know one of the best graders out there double checked it for you, no lost sleep wondering.
coin docs are masters at AT stuff. its a crime they won't use their abilities for good purposes
If I have an 81-S with $1000 natural color in a 64 holder and CAC grades it 63, whatever am I to do?
If I could guess one area where many premiums would hold up with color "pollution" of this quality, it would be Morgans..
@specialist said:
okay, GC is not the only enabler-all auction companies are. I say buy the toners w/cac only because you know one of the best graders out there double checked it for you, no lost sleep wondering.
coin docs are masters at AT stuff. its a crime they won't use their abilities for good purposes
If I have an 81-S with $1000 natural color in a 64 holder and CAC grades it 63, whatever am I to do?
If I could guess one area where many premiums would hold up with color "pollution" of this quality, it would be Morgans..
I don't know if it's AT or NT but it's certainly Market Acceptable seeing what the coin realized
mark
The price realized says nothing about the market acceptability IMHO. It only takes two bidiots to drive the price up.
There was only two bidders?
m
Only two near the $2k level. For what it is worth, I have seen blatantly ATed coins sell for ridiculous sums largely because some blindly buy plastic.
Of course there was only two bids at that level. That's all that humanly possible. You could say that for every single coin that sells at $2300or $4300 or $6300 etc etc etc.
If cnn likes the coin then I would personally take notice
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
In Anacondas defense they were a market maker, if they sold a coin they would happily buy it back. Also they were one of the first with fantastic images. That does not look like a fantastic image. I believe it was voluntarily returned to PCGS to get a bodybag.
@SoCalBigMark said:
In Anacondas defense they were a market maker, if they sold a coin they would happily buy it back. Also they were one of the first with fantastic images. That does not look like a fantastic image. I believe it was voluntarily returned to PCGS to get a bodybag.
@SoCalBigMark said:
In Anacondas defense they were a market maker, if they sold a coin they would happily buy it back. Also they were one of the first with fantastic images. That does not look like a fantastic image. I believe it was voluntarily returned to PCGS to get a bodybag.
SO now someone is rewriting history, Anaconda was a market maker, they would happily buy back all coins they sold....really?
If the price is right, most dealers will buy it back at some price 99% of the time unless it a complete dog.
You have no idea, if you could own every coin Anaconda handled, that sir would be agreat portfolio today.> @afford said:
@SoCalBigMark said:
In Anacondas defense they were a market maker, if they sold a coin they would happily buy it back. Also they were one of the first with fantastic images. That does not look like a fantastic image. I believe it was voluntarily returned to PCGS to get a bodybag.
SO now someone is rewriting history, Anaconda was a market maker, they would happily buy back all coins they sold....really?
You have no idea, if you could own every coin Anaconda handled, that sir would be fantastic portfolio today.
@PocketArt said:
I can't speak for the coin in OP because I haven't seen enough Peace dollars with toning. However; I did find this one in the wild last year- was from one of those cardboard 20th century type set frames meant to be hung on the wall. The colorful toning occured on the reverse of the Peace dollar; the side that was against the cardboard. The obverse has somewhat brown/golden toning close to the date that was against the glass of the frame- no color of premium.
From the same type of holder
Now there is a peace dollar I would love to own. Very nice.
I had forgotten just how hideous the Anaconda piece was. Gototonings' work that was supposedly enhanced, and yes it was in an ngc holder.
at the time when NGC slabbed the toned Peace Dollar the "color" market was in full swing. to say that the floor at Long Beach and the internet was enamored with the coin is a bit of an understatement: things were humming. there seemed to be two groups, one that was in love with it and one that didn't know what to think so remained silent. that was only a few short years after the GMarguli/Braddock led AT Proof IHC scandal that embarrassed NGC/PCGS, that one was a few years removed from all those electric Proof Jefferson Nickels. the Hobby was just beginning to realize the scope of coin doctoring.
when the dust settled everyone knew without a doubt that the coin was AT and new rules were being written. TPG's and coin doctoring remind me a lot of the War on Terrorism --- we can't know what to fight until it is used against us. think about it, who at a major TPG would have ever thought that someone would use a vacuum chamber to AT a slabbed coin.
it seems that the Hobby will be safe or able to guard itself against the worst "terrorist attacks" as long as the older soldiers are still alive and active. their collective memories and experiences date back to the 1960's so there perspective is important.
Toned peace dollar collectors seems to want to believe in magic more that the avg collectors. Let them get exploited if that is what they want.
All I can think about with the original coin is what would happen if I walked it on the floor at a major show. Would it get any offers above 300$? Doubt it, but with PCGS plastic and a collector targeted site, somehow it gets defaulted to legit enough.
Comments
A couple of links to look into: I will state outright that there are alot more people that are significantly more qualified and experienced in this field of research and I cannot state beyond a reasonable doubt that any of these coins are AT, I notice a very similar suspect look on many of them-most from the 83-o,84-o,and 85-o instead of my normal seeing 79,s, 80-s, 81-s, 82-s.
I will point out that the diamond industry has been heavily plagued over the last couple of years with lab grown diamonds that are even more perfect than nature made pieces. It used to be thought that in order to get a diamond, parts of carbon needed to be exposed to very specific conditions and pressures for millions of years. Now, some of the lab grown specimens are fooling some of the biggest experts around the world. Does Lab grown diamonds mean that its not a "real" diamond? Its very real and exhibits the same strengths and properties of "natural grown" diamonds from millions of years. A main reason they are not as acceptable is that the companies who handle "real" diamonds are loosing billions to lab grown buyers and create smear campaigns against the lab specimens.
Toning is something that used to be thought to need specific conditions for tremendous amounts of time. Today's coin chemists have learned by trial and error to create the exact same colors and patterns by speeding up the process. Does this mean its not real? oh its real. It has just been helped along. Ultimately the only thing that will make the difference once the AT/NT debate dies down is what the market is willing to accept. People are going to stop spending 10,20,30,40,$50 thousand dollars on super pretty toners once it becomes known among the masses that the colors can and are being replicated. I dont know for sure where on the timeline we are in creating the uber cool toners but I imagine we are not that far away...
Edited to remove links to specific coins for now
okay, GC is not the only enabler-all auction companies are. I say buy the toners w/cac only because you know one of the best graders out there double checked it for you, no lost sleep wondering.
coin docs are masters at AT stuff. its a crime they won't use their abilities for good purposes
@joebb21 - If all of those were made in a lab (some appear to be from the same submission), then I think it is absolutely terrifying. I hope this doesn't hurt the rainbow toned coin market.
A PNG dealer would need to disclose known AT under the PNG Code of Ethics even if the coin was slabbed. In the case of a PNG dealer, the issue is whether the dealer knows a particular coin is AT or not, and it seems this is uncertain for this coin. If the dealer is not a member of the PNG, as appears to be the case here, this is also not an issue.
I will agree that the toning progression of the ASE and Peace dollar are not equivalent. I would also agree that the toning progression on the Peace dollar, by itself, seems appropriate.
I would disagree with the assertion that a toned coin demonstrating an appropriate toning progression is automatically OK.
@joebb21 is a smart dude so I have no reservations in believing him.
I too feel plenty out there look "hurried along" so to speak on the toning.
And GC has done nothing wrong (the coins are authentic... perhaps the "toning" might be another story.... everyone must do their DD)
There's my 2c.
I will agree with your agree. I would also agree with your next agree.
I will agree with your disagree in that I disagree with those that agree that appropriate toning progression that is similar to AT toning is automatically not OK.
I will also state having handled and seen both major toners and some of the possible/probable AT coins..
Many of the AT coins have a freshly painted look to them in that it appears like water colors have been added to the surface instead of what I believe more of the NT coins I have seen that the toning appears to be deeper in the metal.
Perhaps this comment does not make sense and its just one of those "you know it when you see it" or "Ive seen millions of coins and can just tell this one looks off though Im not sure why" idea.
CNNCOIN who has been around 25+ more years than me and has much more experience said he saw this coin in hand and believes strongly this coin is NT. I of course would trust his opinion-however the look does have some very familiar appearances to some morgans Ive seen...and I questioned it as such
NT
If I have an 81-S with $1000 natural color in a 64 holder and CAC grades it 63, whatever am I to do?
If I could guess one area where many premiums would hold up with color "pollution" of this quality, it would be Morgans..
Exactly. That was the point I made after @specialist made his original comment about GC.
I can't speak for the coin in OP because I haven't seen enough Peace dollars with toning. However; I did find this one in the wild last year- was from one of those cardboard 20th century type set frames meant to be hung on the wall. The colorful toning occured on the reverse of the Peace dollar; the side that was against the cardboard. The obverse has somewhat brown/golden toning close to the date that was against the glass of the frame- no color of premium.
Glorious
24-P?
Close, it's the most common of the series- 2nd year.
Serves me right for trying to show off
While the lighting is not the same, what I want to point out, and this is not definitive, is that color intensity on one side from more immediate contact with the storage medium is more mellow and even on the other side, where the gas molecules were more dispersed. That's poorly stated, but the mellow consistent lack of a pattern on the reverse of the GC coin "sniffs right" as a product of this phenomenon. I do not see this faked. It is not rich enough to mask many marks below it effectively, and by itself adds little in terms of appeal.
Looks NT like what could come from American savings and loan holder or Tidy house. It's a top shelf coin in my opinion.
Wow. Clean cheek too!
100% Positive BST transactions
I don't know if it's AT or NT but it's certainly Market Acceptable seeing what the coin realized
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
They are getting better everyday, and we reward them.
From the same type of holder
Why? It's not your thread.
@Bigbuck1975 - could you post an image of the obverse?
I think op coin might look more correct on a Morgan. Not what I expect to see on a peace dollar. I am not going to post any "qualification " but I did collect and study then for quite some time.
Not ma for my wallet.
^^^^ YES PLEASE
https://imdb.com/name/nm1835107/
Thanks, that's the pattern I was expecting. "Neon" intensity on one side, the other side pastel. That's one pretty coin.
I had no problem selling > @Justacommeman said:
The price realized says nothing about the market acceptability IMHO. It only takes two bidders to drive the price up.
There was only two bidders?
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Only two near the $2k level. For what it is worth, I have seen blatantly ATed coins sell for ridiculous sums largely because some blindly buy plastic.
Of course there was only two bids at that level. That's all that humanly possible. You could say that for every single coin that sells at $2300or $4300 or $6300 etc etc etc.
If cnn likes the coin then I would personally take notice
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Is that the Anaconda peace controversy piece from years ago?
yes, it is. please try to find the members from this thread who disavowed it immediately upon seeing it back then.
Moi
Bruce, you are in the minority. many more were fooled than are probably willing to admit it and it was a good topic of discussion for a while.
A few I've found raw and for low MS prices. The coin in the OP looks nice and I lean NT on it, but not at that level.
This one I could not pass up on due to the unusual pattern, graded MS-62:
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
The coin doesn't look even close to NT. This actually slabbed?
In Anacondas defense they were a market maker, if they sold a coin they would happily buy it back. Also they were one of the first with fantastic images. That does not look like a fantastic image. I believe it was voluntarily returned to PCGS to get a bodybag.
Ngc
If the price is right, most dealers will buy it back at some price 99% of the time unless it a complete dog.
Heck yeah, the market for toned coins was skyrocketing, they in many instances bought back for more, way more.
You have no idea, if you could own every coin Anaconda handled, that sir would be agreat portfolio today.> @afford said:
You have no idea, if you could own every coin Anaconda handled, that sir would be fantastic portfolio today.
As long as there are believers that it's real/acceptable, there's a market.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
Now there is a peace dollar I would love to own. Very nice.
I had forgotten just how hideous the Anaconda piece was. Gototonings' work that was supposedly enhanced, and yes it was in an ngc holder.
This is a pretty toned Peace Dollar ...
Not sure who owns it.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
at the time when NGC slabbed the toned Peace Dollar the "color" market was in full swing. to say that the floor at Long Beach and the internet was enamored with the coin is a bit of an understatement: things were humming. there seemed to be two groups, one that was in love with it and one that didn't know what to think so remained silent. that was only a few short years after the GMarguli/Braddock led AT Proof IHC scandal that embarrassed NGC/PCGS, that one was a few years removed from all those electric Proof Jefferson Nickels. the Hobby was just beginning to realize the scope of coin doctoring.
when the dust settled everyone knew without a doubt that the coin was AT and new rules were being written. TPG's and coin doctoring remind me a lot of the War on Terrorism --- we can't know what to fight until it is used against us. think about it, who at a major TPG would have ever thought that someone would use a vacuum chamber to AT a slabbed coin.
it seems that the Hobby will be safe or able to guard itself against the worst "terrorist attacks" as long as the older soldiers are still alive and active. their collective memories and experiences date back to the 1960's so there perspective is important.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
Toned peace dollar collectors seems to want to believe in magic more that the avg collectors. Let them get exploited if that is what they want.
All I can think about with the original coin is what would happen if I walked it on the floor at a major show. Would it get any offers above 300$? Doubt it, but with PCGS plastic and a collector targeted site, somehow it gets defaulted to legit enough.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set