Just bought an 89-year-old man's collection - I'm heart-broken
jmlanzaf
Posts: 36,419 ✭✭✭✭✭
I won't mention the mail order house he purchased his collection from. It's kind of in a Small-Town (wink, wink). I paid him $1300 for the first half of it (I paid $20-22 for the Morgans, $16-18 for the Peace, $18 for the Eagles, greysheet on the bulk, 11x face on the 90%), 20% back on proof sets. He must have paid 5-10x that at least.
For example, there was a 3 coin set with a routine UNC Ike, Sac, and President dollar in a beautiful cardboard holder with a plastic sleeve. At BEST, $3.50 worth of coins. It was with the original paperwork. He paid $23 with shipping. I paid him $3.
Sweetest old man. Every coin store in town was downright rude to him. Personally, I didn't want any of it. Just taking it out of the fancy packaging is more time than it's worth for the small amount I make. But I really felt bad for the guy. Love to know what he paid for his set of UNC President dollars that I paid him $1 each for...
Kills me. He needs the money now and sunk thousands into this "investment" hoping to leave it to his 3 kids...
Comments
people think these coins are going to be worth high amounts of money but when they try to sell them they find out the coins are not high value but low valued
*https://photos.app.goo.gl/zhzgx5nmxk4H2sM59
Well, it is LITTLE consolation to him after paying a TON for those coins, but I hope he had fun collecting them along the way. It could have been worse - he could have overpaid for stamps or baseball cards....
Agreed. And a trip to eBay or the local coin store (we have several) would have educated the gentleman on the true value of modern dollar coins and polished Indian cents. Unfortunately, as often happens, he didn't make that trip until he was trying to sell. But, he's EIGHTY-NINE YEARS OLD and fell for the advertising hype. Not illegal (although NY does have laws about doing business with seniors over 75), but it is still heartbreaking...
LOL. Yes, there's a related stamp company that somehow manages to still sell 1st Day covers for $8-$10 when the wholesale market prices them at 10-20 cents.
It doesn't take a Mystic to see that those covers are way overpriced....
I have seen many of examples of where novice collectors have purchased sets of very common, low value coins in fancy packaging for prices that were too high. Unfortunately it’s part of the marketing game. You can’t really stop it unless the seller touted the coins as “an investment.”
Spent about 12 thousand over the course of a few months for one fellow's collection. His sons told me who their dad bought most of it from, over the years. That dealer, still in the network, I called after they told me his name. He said, "Yeah, I sold the old man the whole collection, he was my customer". Funny thing was after I submitted the 1909 S VDB Lincoln cent to PCGS and it came back counterfeit, I called him again. He said, "Well I didn't sell him that one". ( I thought "right, like you didn't ask me to submit a fake '89 CC to PCGS, either ? " ) that's hard to forget.
I asked the gentlemen (brothers) who sold me the collection why they called me, on one of the last visits.
They said their dad's dealer only offered them $3K for everything. Don't feel bad. You paid a fair price for a fair lot. Nothing to feel bad about. It's not how much one spends, it's how much time he spent doing it that mattered.
So long as the guy enjoyed collecting what he collected is all that mattered. This old boy's family didn't mind doing their due diligence. In the end, we dealers typically spend more than what we want for the same reasons you may have. The hobby remains. The stories are always the same. I only felt bad when I found out the truth. I feel bad for that dealer. He's a real piece of work.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
How did the guy find you to sell?
He seemed so sad. I"m not sure he was really collecting. He bought 3 of everything. One for each of his children...
I have relationships with the local coin shops and a couple of the "cash 4 gold" type operations.
Yes, it's especially sad when you think you are leaving a legacy for your children.
On the other hand didn't we have a prominent member of this forum who was purchasing coins from respected dealers for the same legacy purpose and either just before or just after he died it was determined that his intended "legacy" incurred an ultimate loss in dollar terms of many multiples of what the gentleman buying mail order coins suffered?
Well, there is NEVER any guarantee of price appreciation. But I don't know of any prominent auction houses or "respected dealer" who charges $23 for a Sac, an Ike and a Presidential dollar. $15 for an CLEANED indian cent and "V" nickel. Etc.
And while you made the math favorable, losing $250,000 on a $1 million coin is a much lower percentage than losing $20 on a $23 coin, the equivalent is losing almost $900,000 on a $1 million coin.
I am sure that is very possible. It's easy to lose a lot of money in the coin market, even if you know how to grade. Still a nice collection of collector coins will have more vaule than group of Ike dollars in a cardboard holder, or some shined up Barber coins in one of those "history frames."
Agreed, but the point is that purchasing coins for legacy purposes is probably not the best reason to be "investing" in coins. In the case of the OP's elderly gentleman it is too bad that his three kids didn't just want to have the coins he collected for them as a memory of his love for them as they clearly had more sentimental value potential than real value.
Well, people do not seem to understand that if an 1893-S sells for a million bucks then every other Morgan Dollar will "someday" sell for a million bucks.
They are easy "marks" for large businesses and there is not a single thing that anybody can do to prevent it.
Is it sad? Sure. It's sad but then what if the fellow had an 1893-S that he acquired from a friend of a friend who needed the money and knew that he was a collector? Would it then be sad?
You see, the thing is, we as a society tend to take the easy route, believe everything we here, cannot relate reality with reality and then waste our money.
I'm happy that, as a sympathetic coin dealer, the OP purchased the collection because the reality of the situation is, is that regardless of WHAT he paid for the coins, he was able to sell what he had. Probably not for what he was expecting but then not everything was at face value either.
It cannot be stated loudly enough or enough times, coins are a LOUSY investment but for a very, very few "lucky" individuals.
The name is LEE!
Ya' caught my heart on that comment.
That's my Dad, through and through. He was collecting the States Quarters for his grand kids up to the day he died. Only difference is his collecting consisted of going to the Bank for a new roll every couple of months. But I could definitely see him getting caught in the same trap if he wasn't so frugal.
I assume the above reference was to Bear. I don't remember how his sale ended up.
There is a big different between fleecing someone, and a knowledgeable collector making calculated purchases. Even experts don't always hit homeruns.
I would never advise a person, young, old or middle aged, to build a legacy out of collector coins unless they have an heir who is a serious collector. Even in that case the person who is building the collection needs to know what they are doing.
If the legacy is built strictly on bullion, that's viable. If it is based up the numismatic value of the items in question, you are on shaky ground in my opinion.
This is exactly why I don't buy that crap from the U.S. Mint. Plus I don't want it anyway.
Same as my Grandpa. At least my Grandpa paid face value for his state quarters from the bank, instead of getting caught up in overpriced gold-plated or colorized crap that these companies market.
There's tons of that stuff out there, and plenty of rude dealers ready to make somebody feel stupid for what they collected.
I am on shaky ground for sure it looks like. I do have rules that I go by when buying coins for my Grand Daughters. No High Priced items and no really low priced items. A few coins that I have put in slabs are a little on the cheap side though. Probably I will sell the cheap coins at a later date. So far in the 3 years I have been buying things have turned out quite nicely. I guess the next 10 will tell the whole story.
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Ken
Education is the answer but tuition Must be paid one way or another. You can pay it by investing time, reading, creating friendships with people who have the knowledge you need, or you can pay the ignorance tax.
It's sad, yes, but we all pay ignorance taxes on different things.
When buying as a legacy gift, there is also the issue of whether or not the kids/grandkids even want it. They might want it, might learn to want it someday, or might have no interest from day one of their inheritance.
If someone is a compassionate coin dealer/buyer with a conscience, I suppose that they might also be signing on to be a therapist of sorts when they run into someone like the elderly gentlemen who prompted this thread. The rude dealers he visited certainly showed no compassion. It was good of you to step in and do what you could for him. At least he was treated nicely and with respect as he saw his dreams for his heirs being decimated by reality. (Also, if he bought three of everything to leave to his kids, why was he selling? Not important for us to know at this point, but too bad he did not just leave the coins to the kids and let them get hit with the reality, since they had no personal stake in the transactions and would have suffered less disappointment and regret).
It probably happens in every city, every day. people trying to sell their collections of overpriced "stuff" only to be brought to reality when it's time to sell. I have seen it before and it is really heartbreaking seeing the owners proudly displaying these "shop at home" and magazine "treasures", only to be told that they are worth hardly more than face value.
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My father-in-law is a junk "hoarder", he wants me to buy his collection, but his scudzy junk becomes immaculate in his eyes and he wants super-premium prices for it. It's all raw and all purchased at country auctions, I've picked a couple of counterfeits out and told him about them, but they're still there. I'd give him a fair price, but no where near what he thinks it's worth...it will just end up in his estate. PS, he sold his paper money hoard to a pawn shop for $.02 on the dollar (value, not face), didn't even let me make an offer.
I bought a collection that was the same deal. Paid $8,500 and took easily half of it to the bank and deposited it. Guy was buying mint sewn bags of presidential dollars, ugh.
I advertised for a few years to dip my feet in the pool. 95% of my calls were estate liquidation.
I largely agree. But there is a lot of room between bad investment and over-hyped junk.
For the rest of us, the problem with incidents like this is that it gives coin dealers a bad name and it gives the hobby a bad name. If this gentleman were 39 instead of 89, we still would have lost a collector forever because of what happened to him.
I agree that it is a broader problem. Just yesterday I got another call from someone referred to me by an acquaintance. She had a "giant stamp collection" she wanted to sell and wanted to know what it's worth. I was honest with her. It was all common used 20th century. Some of it actually TAPED into the album. (EEK!) She said, "I'm only trying to get 3 or 4 hundred to move my family into a better apartment." It wasn't worth $50.
But with the worthless stamp collection, at least it was put together cheaply by someone who just liked playing with stamps. If she had paid $5 each for the kiloweight junk in the album...
And it also bugs me that the gentleman is 89 years old.
That's terrible. I'm not sure how these coin hucksters can sleep at night....
My dad bought a set of 20 raw Morgans that were represented, as being mint state, from a similar operation. When I inspected them most were dipped/polished sliders. I insisted that he return them. He tried to argue with me about keeping them but I pressured him and persisted, until he finally agreed to return them.
I know he was frustrated and upset, so I took him to a show and bought him some really nice MS PCGS/NGC Morgans. He's happy now and thanked me later. I'm Just glad that I was there to help hm and intervene.
Now, he knows what he should buy.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
UGH! But at least they were mint BAGS. The worst thing about these collections is the hours spent filling my recycle bin with the packaging just so I can haul it to the bank. I can never bring myself to pay under face value. But sometimes I really want to - not this time, mind you - because it takes a lot of time to pop coins out of holders....especially the cents...even the wheat cents...3 cents at a time....shudder....
He was selling now because he NEEDS the money. That's why it is doubly sad to me. Not only did he lose thousands of dollars. He lost thousands of dollars that he really couldn't afford to lose. And, if you want it to be triply sad, he did it trying to leave something to his kids. His loving gift ended up being a curse...
I've got tons of those individual state quarters in little round plastic snap holders. I just haven't messed with them yet. I'll get around to it eventually ...it's only been 3 years since I bought the collection, haha
I was afraid of that.
I disagree that coins are a bad investment. You just have to know what you are doing. Stay away from all the promotional crap and modern stuff and buy solid better date coins that are priced right.
LOL. There's a local dealer who every few months tries to sell me his hoard of sealed plastic tubes of state quarters at face value. I keep telling him I need back of face if I'm going to have to open them all for the CoinStar. LOL. He says that's why he hasn't done it himself.
I had the same situation years ago. The man knew he had overpaid and had done his research when he came to sell. I don't remember the exact numbers but I paid him around $5,000.00 for his collection...which was more than he had been offered. After we sealed the deal he gave me a stack of invoices and said have fun with this. He paid over $30,000.00 for the coins he sold me and was happy to get the $5,000.00 I offered.
It's not impossible, but most people only look at the buy sell price. To compare with even a bond fund, you need to compound the yields EVERY YEAR. For example, a blended portfolio yielding 7% will double every 10 years. It is not so easy to do that with most coins.
Dimeman could update us on how he did on the (how shall we say, unexpected and unfortunate) recent sale of his primo stuff - that would be interesting. Then we could make some projections regarding his annualized rates of return.
Modern stuff? Let's see, a $3900 mint buy last year is now worth $75,000. That's legitimate Ebay sales.
It's all about what someone buys obviously. But to say all modern stuff is garbage as an "investment" is not accurate.
Spam, but without the same, fine nutritional value.
@jmlanzaf How do you keep the seller from getting suspicious of you or them thinking you are trying to rip them off?
You can offer to sell them similar material for just slightly more than you are buying it for....
I mean seller!! Sorry I have run into this situation
Fortunately, I wasn't the first dealer he visited. If I were, he would have thought I was. I was the 3rd or 4th bad news deliverer.
Haven't done it yet, but expect to do very well.
So now I suppose you will tell us how high grade toned coins have great 'liquidity' too.
You tell me.......you seem to know it all or for some reason want to poke me with a stick!
Yes, I've done that. But, there's no getting around the fact that you never want to be the bearer of bad news. Half the time, they do get mad at you. I just learned to roll with it. Some day, maybe they'll realize I wasn't the one that took them. But often the first reaction is to be mad at the person who tells you the truth.
The worst that usually happen to the scammers is the customer asks to return it because it was determined to be fake, whizzed, substantially over-graded or otherwise basically a flat out fraud! What should happen is some type of government and legal action to punish the scammers for the sake of the hobby.
A jewelry and coin shop recently sold me a couple coins including a fake 09s vdb that she emphasized was high grade. When I called after grading gave their verdict they were a little ashamed, I guess I have to step up my counterfeit and problem coin detection. A long term dealer said that her former husband was a jeweler and added a lot of mintmarks to add $$$. The worst that happens is an angry customer wanting to do a return.