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PWCC-HE
mexpo75
Posts: 1,912 ✭✭✭
Has anyone had any experience with buying a PWCC card which says certified high end? Has anyone tried sending in to PSA for a review and if so, did it get a bump? Thanks,
PackManInNC
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mexpo75
Posts: 1,912 ✭✭✭
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Buy the card, not the holder or HE cert
I don't think that in any way was his point.
He was asking if anyone bought a card (not the holder) that happened to be HE from PWCC...
and did they try to get it bumped - based on the HE.
I did buy a 63F Clemente PSA 9 that was near perfectly centered with razor sharp corners from the front.
Did come with the HE.
On inspection of the back, there was a very tiny bit of green missing from a corner.
In fact, I was considering a bump - was at the National - showed it to cpamike who spotted the tiny chip.
I have to confess, I neglected to check the back. Now is it still eligible overall for a 10? My take is no. But, ya never know - I didn't request a review.
Stone, you nailed it. I was just wondering if the Certified high end had any bearing on whether or not to try for review.
I sent in a 68 PSA 8 Aaron HE for a review and did not get a bump. But I did get a bump on 68 PSA 8 Willie Mays which was not certified HE by PWCC. I may send the Aaron in again at some point because I do think it could bump.
Certified HE is a clever marketing tactic to drive higher price realization.
I do not need an auctioneer to tell me what his opinion is, because he is not the guy who's job it is to put the card in the slab. We all have two eyes to tell us all we need with the hi res photos Brent provides.
If Brent really wants to change to the grading business then he should get out of the auctioning business because what he is doing is clearly a conflict of interest.
Dave
I believe ryanseven bumped a PSA 9 1966 Banks HE from PSA 9 to PSA 10, as well as a 1960s Mantle Sporting News from PSA 9 to PSA 10, which was also HE (IIRC).
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I sent in a HE 1979 Ozzie Smith PSA 8 - no bump - again, the back was the weakest part of the card.
Bosox1976
Yep Tim, I've had success on those two, but several others haven't gotten a bump. It really comes down to the individual card being worthy of the higher grade. Brent does have a great eye at identifying potential bump candidates, but I haven't seen the PWCC HE sticker necessarily influencing the results.
Ryan Hoge - PSA President, IG: @maysmantle
I have had several PWCC HE cards and they were all extremely nice cards that I along with others thought would bump but did not. I have heard some dealers and collectors theorize that PSA does not like bumping these cards because they feel they will just be resold. Don't know why it would make a difference but that was the chatter at the National.
Those two bumps alone put you ahead of the curve for the next decade, Ryan, LOL..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Thanks guys! I really think it goes back to the old montra of "buy the card not the holder".
I totally agree - that's been driven into our skulls over the years here.
But, based on the spirit of your OP, I thought it would be kind of smart ass to respond with that without at least exploring the idea of HE and whether it would translate into a bump - i.e. has anyone actually tried to bump one of those cards.
I just may sub my Clemente since I've got my membership subs to send in.
I think there is nothing wrong with subbing a card with an HE designation for a bump. If you liked the card enough to buy it in its current grade a 1/2 point bump can't hurt if you ever try to sell it.
KC
Agree with you that HE is a clever marketing tactic to drive higher price realization. It is obviously working as you can look at the sale price of his HE card sales compared to VCP.
I am not so sure with your comment (If Brent really wants to change the grading business then he should get out of the auctioning business because what he is doing is clearly a conflict of interest. ) is accurate. If it is accurate then anyone describing cards as high-end would be considered trying to change the grading business. I think he is trying to generate more revenue for his cards that look better than the grade rather than change the card grading business. We have a lot of examples of cards that have or have not bumped that were high-end.
I think that buyers look to PWCC because of the massive amounts of quality graded cards that they bring to market. The amount of cards that they bring to market they spend the time looking them over and determining the best of the best for the grade and label some as HE. As a buyer I can search Ebay etc... and spend a lot of time trying to find the HE for the grade (which I do) or I can let some auctioneer do it for me.
I have looked at and bid on many of PWCC HE cards and have only been the high bidder on one card. I agree that I in general do not need an auctioneer to tell me what a HE card looks like but it is nice to be able to search PWCC-HE and pull up a lot of nice looking cards that you may or may not be interested in. Maybe I am in the minority but I would guess a lot of members look at the new High-End listings on a regular basis.
I guess I do not understand why you think he should get out of the business of selling because he has an opinion of a card that he considers high-end. Why is that a conflict of interest?
1968 Nolan Ryan RC bumped from psa-8 HE to psa 8.5.
Many people use verbiage to describe/over-described their cards. Only PWCC prints serialized stickers that are adhered to the slab to put their "pedigree" on it and keeps a database of their own serial numbers. That's trying to be in the grading business in my book.
I have no problem with Brent's eye, but you don't see PSA auction cards do you? If they did then it would be in their interest to over-grade cards in order to drive the price realization. As the unchallenged experts who determine what is a 1 and what is a 10, it would give the appearance of the possibility of impropriety because they would not be able to claim 100% impartiality and neutrality. You could never trust that the graded card that you bought (or sent in and got graded) received a consistent and fair evaluation if the one who renders the opinion is also acting in his own interest as the auctioneer (who receives his cut based on the final price realized).
It's the same thing with PWCC. They are putting themselves on both sides of the game by creating a situation whereby they have the ability to arbitrarily put one of their stickers on a slab to benefit themselves so that bidders will perceive that there may be some better chance at a grading bump at PSA than with a non-HE slabbed card. Even if Brent never abused/abuses the privilege, just the fact that there is the possibility of it destroys the transparancy and neutrality that you would want from an auctioneer.
As any other auctioneer he is free to write whatever he wants in the description and let his words and his scanned images be interpreted by bidders as they choose. But by putting serialized stickers on slabs that try to elevate those cards that PWCC itself deems worthy, they fall below the line of being unquestionably squeaky clean. You could say the same about auctioneers who allow their staff to bid in their auctions (remember Mastro and Legendary???). If the "loophole" for abuse exists then its just a matter of time until someone uses it.
Brent's whole philosophy is that the market should determine the price, not manipulation. That should include auctioneers. The entire auction process and rule set should be transparent and unambiguous. Why some cards get the PWCC "seal of approval" and others don't can never be objective or unambiguous, hence the conflict of interest because there is no one to prevent it from being abused.
Let PSA stick to the grading and Brent stick to the auctioning so that we never have the possibility of "certified HE" becoming too much of a temptation for someone to start behaving badly.
Dave
Great last statement..could not have set it better. Take a look at his descriptions of high end cards and then read how he defines his high end designation...he contradicts himself almost every time. If our hobby was regulated he'd be out. I've bought and consigned with him many times and have had both positive and negative experiences but I will say the HE thing should not at all be in his business model. Thx for the post man.
Here is the Ryan PWCC-HE...
Beautiful Ryan, I can see why that got the bump it did.
I collect: 80’s Rookies and 86 Fleer Basketball
Frankly I am a little surprised that there is any discussion about "High End" being used by a seller to describe a card they feel is better than the grade or just better.
Words like "blazer" and "undergraded" are tossed around to pique interest, sometimes (rarely?) it's true. It's up to the buyer to make the decision, but the seller is simply trying to get you to take a good look at the card. MUCH better chance a card will sell once a buyer starts looking at it as opposed to a quick glance.
I used to say that when two guys were debating their cards they both would say "mine's mint yours is EX" then if you switched the cards they would say the same thing. :-)
I don't see a problem with it. I've never seen a slider. Every time I've seen it used it's been a card that presented multiple grades higher but had a back infraction that the TPGer has a ceiling on. I probably haven't seen as many as most of you here though.
If it were just words there would be nothing to discuss. In this case in addition to the words it is a sticker with a serial number that the auctioneer is arbitrarily adding (and tracking) on an already graded card as a secondary grade.
Auctioneers should be auctioneers. Graders should be graders. When you start mixing them together you create another mechanism that can be manipulated and abused.
Dave
Hiya Dave
Good point.
Ya know?
That's why it's good that we have our forum for the exchange of ideas and anecdotes to help us sort thru and navigate a minefield of potential disasters waiting for us on eBay or AH's.
The hobby for many is a business (either part or full time). And I would be remiss if I didn't say that everyone is looking for "that" competitive edge.
So, the concept of a sticker with "high end" on it - for me - has no more impact than being bombarded with L@@k, PSA 8+++, under graded, etc.
Tell ya what? Will be interesting to see what "new" advertising campaign is waiting for us in the very near future.
Perhaps a free trip to Singapore with every PSA 10?
My understanding is that PWCC-HE is simply a designation for those cards which present better than the assigned technical grade by PSA. It does not mean that the card should have a higher grade than assigned by PSA.
For me...PWCC-HE cards make good review candidates. Or in the least...these PWCC-HE cards have outstanding eye appeal for the assigned grade.
IMO, well said buddy.
IMO I don't have an issue with them using a PWCC HE sticker and don't see it as a conflict of interest due to the fact they don't get to assign the original grade - PSA does that. If PSA started selling cards or Beckett I would change my opinion since that would be a conflict.
High End is not a grade, it's an opinion and a sales gimmick nothing more. Why do you think so many items have a price that ends in .95 or .99?
If you were a buyer of a graded card that was accurately graded but had poor (in your opinion) eye appeal you would certainly have the right to point it out.
Since PWCC, or whoever is making a percentage, they have every right to put a sticker on some of the cards. Now if they put it on every card that would bug me.....................a little.
I had a 1972 Topps Willie Mays PSA 9 HE bump to a 10.
This
buying O-Pee-Chee (OPC) baseball
This too, well said.
buying O-Pee-Chee (OPC) baseball
'72 Mays looks good in a 10 holder!
Steve authenticates packs before they are graded and he has PSA graded packs on his website. You don't see the packs on his website labeled as "high end".
buying O-Pee-Chee (OPC) baseball
And Steve's role in the process is to render an opinion only about authenticity, not grade. Not sure how Steve handles things when he comes upon a raw pack and wants to submit it, but I am confident that whatever he does do has been carefully thought through such that there could never be even an accusation of impropriety.
Dave
I am pretty sure Steve assigns a number grade every pack. PSA doesn't follow it to a T every time I was told, but he advises on each. Whether or not its a conflict of interest is your choice, but I am pretty sure Steve gets the closest to graded pack price for his ungraded as you can get so potentially sending packs in isnt even beneficial for him. As far as the packs he has on site already graded, I believe most are from buys.
You don't think Steves "sticker" influences the price?
Some of you guys sure get offended easily. PWCC is NOT only an auctioneer, but a part of the selling process, if their fee/commission goes up with the price of the item, they can render an opinion as long as it's honest. Similar to someone who authenticates items for PSA and sells on his own.
You need to decide for yourself if the person is honest and go from there.
I think the HE sticker is a joke, but it doesn't bother me.
I don't see what the big deal is really. If you think it is a gimmick then just stay away. From what I have seen I think Brent's opinions are usually spot on. I have wondered before if a card without the HE sticker would sell for less if in the same auction versus VCP. In other words does the HE card get the eyes and the normal card suffers?
When I see a PWCC-HE card...I stop perusing their auction and take a closer look.
I am sure this isn't a popular comment...but I love the idea.
Coins use the same system (a CAC sticker) on something considered high end for the grade (which then sell for a premium)
Who out there in the hobby handles a larger quantity of high dollar graded sports cards to do this?
As far as bumping...high end sticker or not....we should all know that if cracked and resubmitted it is a grade lower one time and a grade higher another.
Also, I do not look for the high end label in PWCC auctions and I only own 1 card ever given that designation ('39 PB DiMaggio sample in a '6' holder that could at times be a '7' but it is in my collection so I am not playing that game)