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1837 Reeded edge half with re-engraved collar.

EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,676 ✭✭✭✭✭

According to Dick Graham, author of "Reeded Edge Half Dollar 1836-1839, the reed count on most of the 1837 Half dollars are 140 which is a rather coarse reeding. the 1836 edge has a reed count of 183 reeds, which is very fine.

Here is a 1837 GR-4 with edge reeding that looks like it is struck with half fine reeding and half coarse reeding.


Here are three edge images. An 1837 half with coarse reeding is next to it for comparison.



My theory is that the collar was re-engraved from the fine 183-reed collar used in 1836 to the coarse 140-reed count collar used in 1837.

What do you think?

Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:

Comments

  • TommyTypeTommyType Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2017 10:02AM

    Hmmmm....Guess I don't know much about how they MAKE, (or made), the collars for reeded edge coins.

    Are they machined? (In which case, it seems odd that one could exist with both types of reeding).
    Or are they impressed, like a die is, from existing inverse dies (hubs). (In which case, maybe it's like having a double die from non-identical hubs).

    (Yes, I'm no help at all). ;)

    Easily distracted Type Collector
  • BustDMsBustDMs Posts: 1,568 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Ask Dick!

    If you don't have his contact information let me know.

    Q: When does a collector become a numismatist?



    A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.



    A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've seen this "characteristic" on many coins - even Morgan dollars! So, IMHO, it is not some rare occurrence. By that I'm going to guess that the reeded collar is normal and the next coin did not have this "look." Otherwise (and this is saying nothing), it is some type of damage to the collar that happened while striking coins. Then, other coins will look similar.

    I'm racking my memory but I think that partial narrow reeding combined w/regular reeding on the same coin is more common than compressed edge reeding (Ha! I like that. Hopefully I just coined another new term. :)) around the entire edge.

  • TommyTypeTommyType Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm kind of wondering what the edge looked like on the upset planchet...

    I'm not sure that the "close reeding" isn't really just a result of the upsetting process(?) Like the surface of the upsetting machine was textured to prevent slippage?

    That would imply it was a partial collar strike, though, and I'm not sure it looks like that either....

    Easily distracted Type Collector
  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Reeds were cut into the collar wit a knurling tool. Overlapping of knurls would account for the unusual edge. (See _From Mine to Mint _for details on edge reeding and methods of producing it.)

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,534 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would guess that because they were new at making reeded half dollar collars they needed a few goes before they got it right.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Bungled reeding occurs through the end of the 19th century. It stopped only when the Philadelphia Mint began making collars for all mints and used a drift tool.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RogerB said:
    Bungled reeding occurs through the end of the 19th century. It stopped only when the Philadelphia Mint began making collars for all mints and used a drift tool.

    Can you think of any way it could occur on a coin with a normal reeded collar? This characteristic is somewhat common.

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2017 4:50PM

    The question is not understood. If the collar has normal reeding, then there is no overlapping. Reading the section in FMTM should answer most questions.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2017 4:57PM

    I agree with the collar being deeply reeded. I also like Tom's "experimental" take by the new guys. I rule this out as it continued for decades into the Twentieth Century.

    As I wrote, this occurs on Morgan dollars. IMHO, no Morgan dollar collar was cut with overlapped reeding on purpose. This characteristic is found on reeded coins from many nations also - especially China. The fact that the compressed Edge reeding is very shallow unlike a normal collar tells me it was NOT cut that way. The fact that the compressed reeding often does not go completely around the entire edge is also an indication that the collar was not made that way. I believe it is caused by something happening to certain coins due to the way they interacted with the collar as they were struck.

    How do you like the term "Compressed Edge Reeding?" LOL

  • PocketArtPocketArt Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2017 6:33PM

    from Mine to Mint by Roger W. Burdette

    pg. 413, 4th paragraph under heading Edge Dies- Cutting Reeding

    "The Philadelphia Mint used a straight knurl to put reeding in the collar. The bored out collar was put in the chuck of a lathe and allowed to turn slowly. The knurl was held inside the collar while the latter revolved, thus cutting the grooves which produce raised ridges on the coins. Alignment and accuracy of the first few revolutions of the collar largely determine the quality of the finished collar. Once started the knurl naturally fell into the first grooves cut, and tended to repeat until the reeds had been completed. This also enlarged the opening so the top of the coin reeding would equal a diameter of 38.1 millimeters."

    pg. 413, 1st paragraph under heading Knurl Tracking

    _****"Most collar dies served their purpose without problems and modern collectors pay little attention to the edge of their coins. However, mechanical tolerances for this work were very stringent and a seemingly trivial difference in inside dimension of the collar, or size of the knurl would result in different reed counts on coins. When a single knurl makes its first revolution and then falls back into the first tooth that it rolled, it was tracking correctly. If the circumference of the part being rolled was not an approximate multiple of the pitch of the knurl, the knurl may land somewhere between the two initial teeth, causing it to start a new row. This may cause double tracking (or any multiple of the initial pitch)." _

    I have an 1837 half being graded at NGC at the moment, and never thought to look at the reeding. I'll be sure to look when I get it back!

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 14, 2017 7:09PM

    ;)

  • 1630Boston1630Boston Posts: 13,772 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have no idea or logical input but I will learn more here :smile:

    Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb

    Bad transactions with : nobody to date

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PocketArt said:
    from Mine to Mint by Roger W. Burdette

    pg. 413, 4th paragraph under heading Edge Dies- Cutting Reeding

    "The Philadelphia Mint used a straight knurl to put reeding in the collar. The bored out collar was put in the chuck of a lathe and allowed to turn slowly. The knurl was held inside the collar while the latter revolved, thus cutting the grooves which produce raised ridges on the coins. Alignment and accuracy of the first few revolutions of the collar largely determine the quality of the finished collar. Once started the knurl naturally fell into the first grooves cut, and tended to repeat until the reeds had been completed. This also enlarged the opening so the top of the coin reeding would equal a diameter of 38.1 millimeters."

    pg. 413, 1st paragraph under heading Knurl Tracking

    _****"Most collar dies served their purpose without problems and modern collectors pay little attention to the edge of their coins. However, mechanical tolerances for this work were very stringent and a seemingly trivial difference in inside dimension of the collar, or size of the knurl would result in different reed counts on coins. When a single knurl makes its first revolution and then falls back into the first tooth that it rolled, it was tracking correctly. If the circumference of the part being rolled was not an approximate multiple of the pitch of the knurl, the knurl may land somewhere between the two initial teeth, causing it to start a new row. This may cause double tracking (or any multiple of the initial pitch)." _

    I have an 1837 half being graded at NGC at the moment, and never thought to look at the reeding. I'll be sure to look when I get it back!

    Thanks for the quotes from Roger's book. I have a copy and highly recommend it! Nevertheless, IMHO nothing here has helped answer the OP's question. :neutral:

  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,676 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I e-mailed Dick and he said he had seen this before and that is why he didn't list a reed count for the GR-4. it is not a strike related issue. Others from this die pair should be the same. The diameter is slightly larger than the "normal" 1937. That might be why the reeding is not as deep - the collar was too big for the planchet.

    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks! Well if every GR-4 edge looks like this (partially compressed edge reeds), perhaps that's the answer - one unusual collar for these halves. I'm not satisfied and that still does not answer the question of all the other coins with this characteristic to my satisfaction. :(

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    From the photos it looks like overlapping - possible more than once as the operator tried to correct tracking. Variable pressure from the lathe would only add to the mess. The collar should have been discarded, but it wasn't.

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting discussion on a coin feature so often ignored.... Cheers, RickO

  • Jackthecat1Jackthecat1 Posts: 1,122 ✭✭✭

    This is very interesting. Many of us don't really think about the '3rd side' of our coins.

    Member ANS, ANA, GSNA, TNC



    image
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Roger, I'll post some of this characteristic on other coins. It may take some time to find them as they are uncommon. Usually the normal raised reed is visible yet the usual deep groove between the reeds is "bulged-out." I'm going to look through some $ right now.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2017 8:33AM

    LOL, Sorry guys, it took one roll of dollars and less than five minutes to find/photo and post one of these "Compressed Reeding" coins. I'll look for some other denominations but probably not today.

    Bottom image is normal coin.

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2017 11:13AM

    It appears to be overlapping/misregistration of the knurling tool. Top is classic example of over run where knurl and collar do not match exactly. Bottom is similar but the knurl fell back into the previously cut reeds just after the second run started. You can duplicate this to some extent by taking a new coin - such as an Ike dollar - and rolling it across firm clay, then rolling it back along the same path. Try this with varying amounts of pressure, too.

    (NOTE: This is not related to the "sport" of curling although knurling and curling are both rather obscure concepts. Also, there is no cosmetology connection that I know of.)

  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,835 ✭✭✭✭✭

    maybe the counterfeiters don't have everything down yet

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    These coins being shown are genuine. However, at one time the edges of a coin were often an indication that a coin was counterfeit. Not so much now except for older fakes that would not fool a professional TPG.

    The Morgan dollar and Liberty Seated guys have done some excellent research into coin edge reeding. This often helps catch altered date fakes.

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just a minor point.... reeded collars were not "engraved" in the sense that face dies were. So they cannot, therefore, be "re-engraved." OK...this is a fly spec on the window of numismatic clarity.

  • AnalystAnalyst Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭

    PocketArt: from Mine to Mint by Roger W. Burdette ... pg. 413, 1st paragraph under heading Knurl Tracking:

    _****"Most collar dies served their purpose without problems and modern collectors pay little attention to the edge of their coins. However, mechanical tolerances for this work were very stringent and a seemingly trivial difference in inside dimension of the collar, or size of the knurl would result in different reed counts on coins. When a single knurl makes its first revolution and then falls back into the first tooth that it rolled, it was tracking correctly. If the circumference of the part being rolled was not an approximate multiple of the pitch of the knurl, the knurl may land somewhere between the two initial teeth, causing it to start a new row. This may cause double tracking (or any multiple of the initial pitch)." _

    EagleEye: I e-mailed Dick [Graham] and he said he had seen this before and that is why he didn't list a reed count for the GR-4. it is not a strike related issue. Others from this die pair should be the same.

    RogerB: From the photos it looks like overlapping - possible more than once as the operator tried to correct tracking. Variable pressure from the lathe would only add to the mess. The collar should have been discarded, but it wasn't.

    Although I am not an expert on edge reeding, Roger's explanation seems extremely convincing. I find this thread to be very interesting

    "In order to understand the scarce coins that you own or see, you must learn about coins that you cannot afford." -Me
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 17, 2017 3:03PM

    The explanation in Roger's book seems to be correct; however, I'd like to add a few things here to make sure there is no confusion. Tracking, etc. may explain the different "look" of the reeding on 1921 Morgan's that I posted above. What was not mentioned in the quote pulled from his book and something he and other researchers of coin edges obviously know is this: Reed counts may differ at different mints and within individual mints during the same year.
    In some series, they stay constant for a few years and then change to a different count. In some series, the reed count is constant at all mints and for all dates.

    Always check the edges of your coins for repairs. Reed counts are very helpful for detecting altered dates in some series. AFAI can tell, so far, the deceptive counterfeits of today have the correct # of reeds.

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