British farthing from 1672

RMW

I have no idea how this piece was preserved this way, but here is a RED copper 1672 farthing, graded 65 by NGC.
Sorry I still cant seem to get the full size version of pics on here, despite the suggestion the other day, which doesnt work (I get the file name in letters rather than the image itself).
1672 was the first year the new copper farthings, with the depiction of Britannia, were issued for circulation. Patterns were made in the 1660s but no pieces meant for circulation.

7Jaguars

Yes, but if you persist in your efforts, it will load on to your post which you will then be able to see once you "Post Comment"

RMW

RMW

Thanks for the tip 7 Jags. Still have a bit to sort out re size. But anyway, if anyone has a theory on how this stayed red for 345 years, please let me know. It is original.

asheland

That's great!

RMW

Thanks Asheland. The Brits in this period had a lot off difficulty working with copper, as opposed to silver and gold.
The aristocracy who controlled everything then did not even consider copper pieces as money,although small change was badly needed by the average person in the population. There was little or no quality control as a result and dies were often used until they wore out and broke.
For these reasons, as well as the primitive coin making equipment of the time, this series often produced incomplete and weak strikes full of die breaks, die rust and other flaws. As well during the latter part of the 17th and early 18th century, the blanks used were substandard.
This piece has an above average strike for the type, but the amazing red is highly unusual. With copper of course, exposure to air would oxidize the piece and turn it brown. How it stayed largely red with little or no means to keeping it away from air is beyond me.
Nice copper pieces of this era are often a lot more difficult to obtain in top condition than silver pieces of the same period, especially the rare tin pieces made in the late 1680s and early 1690s.

TwoKopeiki

Beautiful coin @RMW . To answer your question, I don't think it did stay red all these years. It was most likely conserved in the last decade or so.

RMW

That's possible of course but I'm told otherwise. Don't know for sure. Some senior dealers have seen it.

Insider2

You have raised a very good point. The color of the coin has raised a question! I'll suggest this. Have the coin authenticated by our host. Very many red Unc copper (just as your piece) 18th and 19th century counterfeits from various countries have hit the market for at least two years. I have not seen any 17th century fakes yet.

Personally, I wouldn't touch it with out certification. Take that in one eye and out the other and disregard my opinion. Get it checked. It will only increase its desirability!

RMW

It is certified by NGC and was bought thru Heritage. And there are one or two other 1672s I have seen with red.
Also been checked out as I said with Brit specialists.
But anything is possible.
There are many 18th century pieces with red. Not many 17th to be sure.

RMW

Although I haven't posted this piece to sell it, I looked up my catalog and the NGC cert number is 3834949-002.
And this piece was crossed over by me from a PCGS certification as well. You will find this piece in the Heritage archive, January 2012 auction, Lot 24331.

RMW

Here is another Charles II farthing of mine with a small amount of residual red on the obverse.
This is a 1665 pattern farthing, Peck 423, a long haired pattern (the rarer of the two versus the short hair ones).
This was first authenticated by the fledgling UK grading service as a CGS 85 (roughly the equivalent of a Us MS 65) but crossed over by me to NGC as a 64.

RMW

JCMhouston

Very nice farthings!

Zohar

Beautiful coins!

RMW

Thanks very much JCM and Zohar. I started my post retirement collection collecting these. but there dont seem to be as many really nice farthings out there anymore. So I have morphed into primarily a type collector of copper bronze and silver with a few sets added on. A little bit of gold as well.
You may have seen me as RMW Collection on the NGC site ( the chat room there is pretty dead).

jdmern

As far as the question to how it has stayed red this many years, my first guess would be it spent many years lacquered... I purchased a small collection of Condors (1790's) that once the lacquer was removed, they were all very nice red and red brown pieces...

Boosibri

Very nice! A group of 1741 Halfpennies was recently brought to market in the UK (where I live) all red as red. Came from a roll kept by an old woman. Local dealer here that I know well had the deal. Certainly later than the coin in the OP but in the right conditions and storage it is possible.

RMW

I would LOVE to get my hands on one of those halfpennies!

RMW

Jdmern , what you say makes sense to me but I would think that some lacquer residue would be left. But there isn't any on this coin. I will post another couple of pieces here shortly on this thread

Insider2

Nope! Lacquer can be completely removed w/o a trace UNLESS it is not done completely and properly so a trace of an iridescent film is visible.

BTW, Sometimes if the lacquer did not cover all parts of the coin, it will tone that area only and often you can tell the coin was once lacquered. Always check the edges.

RMW

Good to know. I will check that out.
In the meantime here is a bronze and a copper piece not all brown.
Bronze piece is the 1649 Charles I death medal. Copper piece is a George II halfpenny.The C1 medal has pride of place in my living room!

jdmern

Insider is correct in regards to the lacquer, an acetone soak will remove it without a trace

jdmern

By the way, beautiful pieces RMW!

RMW

Re jdmern and insider, are you referring to lacquer or wax? Just to make sure.

RMW

Thanks jdmern. Lots of trolling to get these pieces. The C1 medal is NGC 64 RB and was put in one of their super jumbo holders so you can put it on a mount.
The G2 although it's NGC 65 wasn't the one I was thinking of. I have a 1751 in 65( one of the other Old Head types) which has about 15 percent red. Both G2s have super sharp strikes although G2 Old Heads often come well struck, these two are exceptional. The Britannia on the reverse is virtually fully complete at head and chest. Often the head is incomplete and chest is either a bit rounded or has friction.This is quite rare I think for pre steam powered pieces.

RMW

7Jaguars

?Super Jumbo holders?? What on Earth does that look like?

JCMhouston

&Jaguars, I'm not where I can post a pic but here is a ling to a swiss medal in a super jumbo, the medal itself is 50mm. I've got a couple of Anne medals in these.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/switzerland/world-coins/switzerland-confederation-bronze-shooting-festival-medal-1929-ms63-brown-ngc-/a/231721-64348.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

RMW

There is the regular size of course. Then there is the jumbo for pieces too thick for a regular holder, as in some of my Coronation Medals.
Then , ones about the size of a paperback novel, for medals both too big in diameter and too thick for a regular holder.
The C1 medal is somewhere around 50 mm in diameter, maybe more ( I forget the dimensions). The Victoria Diamond Jubilee Medals I have are 55 mm in diameter and are in similarly sized PCGS holders. The C1 is in an NGC holder.

Boosibri

@RWM I can get you one but they aren't cheap. £300 or so.

Boosibri

This one is more red than the image

RMW

I'm in but am Extremely picky as you may see here. Have they all been graded by PCGS now? And the pic is 1749 not 1741.
Since I'm new here and also not that computer savvy, I will figure out how the pm function works.

RMW

To try to clarify the super jumbo holder, I presume they are meant to house oversize medals, or perhaps multiple talers if those coins are big enough. Both TPG services in the US will grade medals.This one is in a super jumbo PCGS holder.

jdmern

RMW, yes, I am referring to lacquer, not wax...

RMW

Ok jdmern . Thanks for the tip. I will ask my coin guru about it. He has seen the farthing.

RMW

Boosibri. As I haven't found the pm function here, if you would be so kind as to initiate one to me, I know where to pick it up.

7Jaguars

Oh, I have a couple of the larger holders, I thought there was something even bigger!

RMW

No problem 7 Jags. Perhaps I dont have the nomenclature correct.
I love that milled British too.