Grey Sheet information

PTVETTER

As of September 8, the greysheet will no longer supply coin shows with greysheets.
Things are going downhill, shows first got greysheets free, just pay for FedEx shipping, then shows had to pay a small fee plus fedex shipping, now no greysheet at all!

Thing there appears to be going down hill ?

ColonelJessup

Anyone with a hardcopy subscription also gets full online.
CCE doesn't produce hardcopy.

Good information gets monetized

TANSTAAFL
No sanity clause either

PTVETTER

I have to pay for BOTH the hard copy and the online copy.
Did I get taken or what is going on?

Insider2

TANSTAAFL
No sanity clause either

What the...???

PS: HHUOCVT and this too FEMKOP!

PTVETTER

I have no idea what those letters stand for!

Walkerfan

It's an economic term.

Stands for:

There's no such thing as a free lunch.

Someone always has to pay....free things aren't really free.

Coinstartled

@PTVETTER said:
As of September 8, the greysheet will no longer supply coin shows with greysheets.
Things are going downhill, shows first got greysheets free, just pay for FedEx shipping, then shows had to pay a small fee plus fedex shipping, now no greysheet at all!

Unless the GS catches up with the sagging market, it may not be a big loss.

Insider2

So how does the "A" fit in?

ColonelJessup

I will check again before I consider adjusting the current locations of my foot and my mouth. In whatever direction . Disregard that as being irrelevant if I misspoke. In which case the best I can offer that I canceled my East Coast snail mail subscription immediately the online was available.

If you're a show organizer, this doesn't work out well for your crowd, and I get that

Notwithstanding this, I applaud the act. I see no valid reason to cheapen the value of information for which I have paid in order to have a proprietary right.
@MrEureka backs me up on this 100%.
Both of us will give out this information for free at shows.

Conversation at a Stacks sale when Dick Osburn was warming thing up.
@CJ - Hey, @DaveWcoins , I'll give you a buck if you'll tell me what VF bid is on a 72-CC 25c.
@DaveWcoins - You can have that for free. But what good is Sheet going to do?
@CJ - Gotta have something to multiple by 3.
@CRO - He would have paid you $5.
@MrE - I'll give you $10 not to tell him.
@CJ - I'll give you 20% of my commission to tell me what my guy should really pay.
@Larry - @CJ, too much free coffee again!

TANSTAAFL - any futurist fans of David Delos Harriman or Lazarus Long can explicate.

Practically, last week's info is identical in 99.9+% of the items and it's rare to see variances of more than 2%-3% in the non-bullion items that change.

morgandollar1878

The collectors price guide was the start, and it sounds like this is the next step of the GS being taken away from the collector, which actually has been a long time complaint from many dealers.

1630Boston

Yell at me if you choose, but as a novice collector...not a dealer....I appreciate the GS the same way that I do the Red Book [or the blue book], and I love having a hard copy
JMHO

Insider2

Perhaps that is why the Numismatist magazine is now publishing price info. Sounds like part of a big plan.

Wabbit2313

It's become rocket science (shafting) there. They check the sheet bid, then check auctions, then check some dealer network, then I get the shaft offered to me.

1630Boston

As I have stated before, every resource is as good as the way that you interpret it, any resource [good or bad] is a resource
JMHUO = Just my humble uneducated opinion

ColonelJessup

@Wabbit2313 said:
It's become rocket science (shafting) there. They check the sheet bid, then check auctions, then check some dealer network, then I get the shaft offered to me.

"They" are paying for the information.
"YOU" are giving yourself the shaft by failing to due enough due diligence to defend whatever price level you are willing to trade at.

Wabbit2313

@ColonelJessup said:

@Wabbit2313 said:
It's become rocket science (shafting) there. They check the sheet bid, then check auctions, then check some dealer network, then I get the shaft offered to me.

"They" are paying for the information.
"YOU" are giving yourself the shaft by failing to due enough due diligence to defend whatever price level you are willing to trade at.

Did I say that was the end of it?

ColonelJessup

If it ended well for you, perversely, you have undermined your own whining thesis.
Not invalidated it.

Ozymandias will record my postulation and consider it with the same nuanced scrupulosity as he does yours.

Wabbit2313

I stand by what I said. Many sources of info are examined and then the low offer is presented. And more often, greysheet is not the information that is being referenced as the authority.

JohnF

@PTVETTER said:
As of September 8, the greysheet will no longer supply coin shows with greysheets.
Things are going downhill, shows first got greysheets free, just pay for FedEx shipping, then shows had to pay a small fee plus fedex shipping, now no greysheet at all!

Thing there appears to be going down hill ?

Not sure how this new policy would indicate that things are going down hill... quite the opposite.

We are re-evaluating the strategy of giving away sheets at shows because it harms those who actually pay for subscriptions, and our subscribers are our most valuable resource.

Also, sadly, we have found that the sheets being given away at shows are being offered for sale on eBay and other venues to our detriment. In other words, trying to do the right thing has resulted in harming our brand.

If you want a Greysheet, please subscribe. We are adding value to our subscriptions every month. Most recently by posting our prices online for subscribers to access with more price columns than we can fit in print. Other cool features for subscribers are coming, including an APP. Again, FREE for paid subscribers.

JohnF

I forgot to add that we've recently added CAC values for dated 20th century gold with Morgan dollars to follow in the coming weeks.

JohnF

@Coinstartled said:

@PTVETTER said:
As of September 8, the greysheet will no longer supply coin shows with greysheets.
Things are going downhill, shows first got greysheets free, just pay for FedEx shipping, then shows had to pay a small fee plus fedex shipping, now no greysheet at all!

Unless the GS catches up with the sagging market, it may not be a big loss.

Please tell me where we have failed to catch up. Most often we get complaints from dealers that we are too aggressive about lowering prices to market.

amwldcoin

Bites his tongue!

ricko

GS is a resource... and a useful one. It is, however, one resource among several... and due diligence is required in business - or business will lose. Cheers, RickO

JohnF

@ricko said:
GS is a resource... and a useful one. It is, however, one resource among several... and due diligence is required in business - or business will lose. Cheers, RickO

Couldn't agree more. Thanks @ricko

logger7

I'd like to see more AU58 pricing information, with dollars that is quite useful with big spreads. Also would like to have a once in a while package option where you could buy a set once every six months or so, possibly including Bluesheet. And I'm curious whether you are incorporating ebay and private treaty sales, which are a huge part of the business, and not just the usual large auction sales.

ColonelJessup

@JohnF said:

@Coinstartled said:

@PTVETTER said:
As of September 8, the greysheet will no longer supply coin shows with greysheets.
Things are going downhill, shows first got greysheets free, just pay for FedEx shipping, then shows had to pay a small fee plus fedex shipping, now no greysheet at all!

Unless the GS catches up with the sagging market, it may not be a big loss.

Please tell me where we have failed to catch up. Most often we get complaints from dealers that we are too aggressive about lowering prices to market.

Perhaps people here may not have the experiences I have had with CDN before and after @JohnF rescued it.
We won't start with the clatter of teletype machines and the whirl of punch-cards going thru sorters, but CDN did.

Please forgive my IMNSHO generalizations,
By 2005, they were on their way to being irrelevant.
By 2012, they were the only game in town, and still are..... in print. Only.
Their numbers were clueless but close.
@Laurie 's observations from 5 years ago no longer apply. As much as they used to. . It's breakfast time at Long Beach, I'm sure she'll clue in @JohnF as the show goes on. Always does. He's a world-class listener, world-class coin geek and knows a good data-mining algorithm when he sees one.

The last iteration of the old CDN (I've known every publisher but Pauline) didn't crash the market. The editors were blind to most market activity, And listened to no one. As it was sliding, they had no feet on the ground, no "ear" on the floor. Now they do.

Actually, @JohnF , you started out behind the curve (as did many because the acceleration of the decline in many of the market(s) Your editorial staff has better niche and overall market reporting than ever before. Most of your complainants have taken their losses and gone back to the grind of periodic moaning over grading and cash-flow.

Now, the results of the slide and current levels, timelier and finer adjustments from give me more for my buck. I need CCE less than PCGS Auction archives for the rest.

I pay what I choose for the levels of of granularity and meta-data I need and am sufficiently un-lazy to use what's easily available for free.

@JohnF is the both the most accessible and the most pro-active market-maven the industry has ever offered to its base.

I think him responding to reportage quality issues would take us more OFF THREAD.

The free-market implications of the distribution policy seem (IMNSHO per usual) clear.

To the issue of being low-balled. Don't bring a rotary-dial device to a smart-phone duel

ColonelJessup

There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch, but for the price of a cheeseburger a week you can leverage yourself for a high proportion of good faith negotiations at the national level

JohnF

@logger7 said:
I'd like to see more AU58 pricing information, with dollars that is quite useful with big spreads. Also would like to have a once in a while package option where you could buy a set once every six months or so, possibly including Bluesheet. And I'm curious whether you are incorporating ebay and private treaty sales, which are a huge part of the business, and not just the usual large auction sales.

We have recently added AU58 pricing in MANY series. Due to space limitations in print a lot of our new pricing columns are available online only. If there is a specific area of interest that we are missing, let me know and we will prioritize it.

As to the "every six months" set of pubs, we already offer something similar. We now offer monthly subscription rates so you can subscribe to the once-a-month GREYSHEET package (Greysheet, Supplement, Quarterly) for $14.99 billed monthly. Billie is running a special right now, and subscribers of the Monthly Grey get FREE Monthly Bluesheet and Goldsheet as part of the deal. PLUS you get online access to these values as well. As soon as our smart-phone app is ready you'll get that free as well as part of the subscription.

So, I guess this sheds more light on the direction we are going at CDN. Hope this helps...

Now, as to eBay and private treaty. We definitely monitor outside data as much as possible. We rely on folks giving us reliable information and feedback. When we get it, we definitely take it into consideration. We just performed a similar exercise on early $5 gold based on feedback like this.

Coin Finder

Makes no difference to me. I always give out GS info at shows. And will continue to do so . Info not actual sheets.

PTVETTER

@JohnF said:

@PTVETTER said:
As of September 8, the greysheet will no longer supply coin shows with greysheets.
Things are going downhill, shows first got greysheets free, just pay for FedEx shipping, then shows had to pay a small fee plus fedex shipping, now no greysheet at all!

Thing there appears to be going down hill ?

Not sure how this new policy would indicate that things are going down hill... quite the opposite.

We are re-evaluating the strategy of giving away sheets at shows because it harms those who actually pay for subscriptions, and our subscribers are our most valuable resource.

Also, sadly, we have found that the sheets being given away at shows are being offered for sale on eBay and other venues to our detriment. In other words, trying to do the right thing has resulted in harming our brand.

If you want a Greysheet, please subscribe. We are adding value to our subscriptions every month. Most recently by posting our prices online for subscribers to access with more price columns than we can fit in print. Other cool features for subscribers are coming, including an APP. Again, FREE for paid subscribers.

The Grey does not give greysheet away.

The FACT is:
they charge the show promoter for the grey at a rate of $1.00 each plus FedEx shipping of over $75.00.

In the past (years ago) the greysheet was more up to date than today's rapid changing market!

1630Boston

Just my two cents
Perhaps in the past, before the internet, the 'market' followed the grey sheet.
Akin to the spot price of PM's. "Buy for a percentage less and sell for a percentage more".
Many more seasoned, and smarter, people here know more than I.......I'm just thinking out loud.

Coinstartled

@JohnF said:

@Coinstartled said:

@PTVETTER said:
As of September 8, the greysheet will no longer supply coin shows with greysheets.
Things are going downhill, shows first got greysheets free, just pay for FedEx shipping, then shows had to pay a small fee plus fedex shipping, now no greysheet at all!

Unless the GS catches up with the sagging market, it may not be a big loss.

Please tell me where we have failed to catch up. Most often we get complaints from dealers that we are too aggressive about lowering prices to market.

@JohnF said:

@Coinstartled said:

@PTVETTER said:
As of September 8, the greysheet will no longer supply coin shows with greysheets.
Things are going downhill, shows first got greysheets free, just pay for FedEx shipping, then shows had to pay a small fee plus fedex shipping, now no greysheet at all!

Unless the GS catches up with the sagging market, it may not be a big loss.

Please tell me where we have failed to catch up. Most often we get complaints from dealers that we are too aggressive about lowering prices to market.

PM your most recent Morgan sheet and I will be happy to help you bring your prices in line to current conditions.

Coinstartled

@$186 on a lot of six MS66 Morgan's

http://www.ebay.com/itm/372058670968?_trksid=p2471758.m4704

@$32 MS64 Peace Dollar

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOT-OF-15-PIECES-1923-PEACE-SILVER-DOLLARS-NGC-MS-64-/202023617130?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&nma=true&si=sMNyA7vsHOigoWHURLcRx63ka1Y%

JohnF

@Coinstartled said:
@$186 on a lot of six MS66 Morgan's

http://www.ebay.com/itm/372058670968?_trksid=p2471758.m4704

@$32 MS64 Peace Dollar

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOT-OF-15-PIECES-1923-PEACE-SILVER-DOLLARS-NGC-MS-64-/202023617130?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&nma=true&si=sMNyA7vsHOigoWHURLcRx63ka1Y%

Thank you. These are accurately reflected on Bluesheet, which is why we constantly emphasize that readers need to subscribe to both Blue and Grey.

Wabbit2313

@ColonelJessup said:

3. It's breakfast time at Long Beach, I'm sure she'll clue in @JohnF as the show goes on.

Coinstartled

@JohnF said:

@Coinstartled said:
@$186 on a lot of six MS66 Morgan's

http://www.ebay.com/itm/372058670968?_trksid=p2471758.m4704

@$32 MS64 Peace Dollar

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOT-OF-15-PIECES-1923-PEACE-SILVER-DOLLARS-NGC-MS-64-/202023617130?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&nma=true&si=sMNyA7vsHOigoWHURLcRx63ka1Y%

Thank you. These are accurately reflected on Bluesheet, which is why we constantly emphasize that readers need to subscribe to both Blue and Grey.

John, please explain the difference then between Grey and Blue. In both of my examples the seller is a recognized high volume dealer who incurs the usual 8% in Ebay/Paypal fees and must replenish at a substantially lower cost.

Why are his sales not pertinent to calculating wholesale bid? Do any Ebay transactions count in Greysheet calculations?

TwoSides2aCoin

One of the tools I could not be without, in the trade. And I use it religiously.

PTVETTER

The Greysheet is one of the many tools that is out there.
Coinfacts is also a tool. There are so many finding the right tools can be harder than one thinks

PTVETTER

@PTVETTER said:

@JohnF said:

@PTVETTER said:
As of September 8, the greysheet will no longer supply coin shows with greysheets.
Things are going downhill, shows first got greysheets free, just pay for FedEx shipping, then shows had to pay a small fee plus fedex shipping, now no greysheet at all!

Thing there appears to be going down hill ?

Not sure how this new policy would indicate that things are going down hill... quite the opposite.

We are re-evaluating the strategy of giving away sheets at shows because it harms those who actually pay for subscriptions, and our subscribers are our most valuable resource.

Also, sadly, we have found that the sheets being given away at shows are being offered for sale on eBay and other venues to our detriment. In other words, trying to do the right thing has resulted in harming our brand.

If you want a Greysheet, please subscribe. We are adding value to our subscriptions every month. Most recently by posting our prices online for subscribers to access with more price columns than we can fit in print. Other cool features for subscribers are coming, including an APP. Again, FREE for paid subscribers.

The Grey does not give greysheet away.

The FACT is:
they charge the show promoter for the grey at a rate of $1.00 each plus FedEx shipping of over $75.00.

In the past (years ago) the greysheet was more up to date than today's rapid changing market!

Question????
Will the Greysheet be given to the dealers at FUN?
If so will the CDN give them to subscribers from their table or will FUN disturbe them??

logger7

If subscribers were able to have an auto complete function connected to online GS/BS that would be helpful. Artificial intelligence is coming, Elon Musk says it is an international threat, but sure helps with analysis in hard to ascertain areas. Or maybe I get lazy. But it always annoyed me when you were talking to people who tried to read your mind and complete your sentences....

Wabbit2313

@PTVETTER said:

Question????
Will the Greysheet be given to the dealers at FUN?
If so will the CDN give them to subscribers from their table or will FUN disturbe them??

Is it that important for something that costs a few bucks?

PTVETTER

It depends on the market.
Because of travel time to Fla. for the FUN show, I leave BEFORE they come out.
I already pay for it and use it
Should I have twice for it?

JohnF

We are working on a cool, new product for shows, starting with either Baltimore or FUN. The problem with giving away sheets at the show is simply that they discourage subscribers. I cannot tell you how many times we've heard people tell us that there's no reason to buy at GS b/c "I can just wait until the next show." So, instead of helping us get more subscriptions, we actually lose them. Furthermore, the extras get picked up by non-subscribers and often sold on eBay, etc. Again hurting us. We are not pleading poverty at CDN, but this company operates in a tough world for newsletter/newspaper publishers. We need every paying subscriber we can get to keep the operation at full tilt.

@PTVETTER if you want a timely issue at any show you can the weekly issues are available for PDF download on Wednesday of each week -- usually two days prior to the mails. Plenty of time for any show.

JohnF

John, please explain the difference then between Grey and Blue. In both of my examples the seller is a recognized high volume dealer who incurs the usual 8% in Ebay/Paypal fees and must replenish at a substantially lower cost.

Why are his sales not pertinent to calculating wholesale bid? Do any Ebay transactions count in Greysheet calculations?

We write on this topic nearly every week or two. All articles available on our blog site. But to be short and concise, the main difference is Bluesheet represents the bottom-end or lowest recently reported values for a coin; or the current sight-unseen bid, if that is greater. We do a lot of hard work for our readers to represent these values. In the case of the Morgan lots on eBay, I would contend that these are sold as loss leaders to gain clients.

As proof, John Love is currently offering $112 each for 100 "untoned" MS65 Morgans as a live bid. There are multiple bidders in this area. Toned Morgans have multiple bids at $98/$96.

This is likely my last post on this thread as I do not want to wear out the welcome of our gracious hosts. Folks can email us any time and PLEASE read our blog. We talk on these topics every single week. Thank you.

John

ColonelJessup

The free tacquitos at Long Beach start in 6 minutes.
The shorter the line, the better the show.
It'll likely be mentioned in either Hot Topics and CRO Road Report.
@MrEureka identified this as a leading indicator two market cycles ago.

PTVETTER

just to admit that I have a limited knowledge
I did not know that GS were being offered on Ebay.
JMHO that is dumb because when one gets them they are OLD news. Bidding, and shipping delays!
I guess there is a butt for every seat.

PTVETTER

John I hope you continue to post here
You input and knowledge is more than welcome.
I understand more than most being a past promoter of a state show.

1630Boston

Thanks @JohnF for sharing your info with us
I appreciate it very much

CoinZip

Coin clubs need all the help they can get, taking away something that you have provided free for decades is not going to help them.

I would much rather see you come up with a solution that helps both the coin club and your business instead of just helping yourself.

If I had a subscription to the Grey Sheet, this would convince me to cancel it.....

Cougar1978

Glad to hear it's no longer being distributed free at shows.

I never believed free copies of CDN should be handed out to public especially at shows. CDN reflects wholesale prices.

For MV there many sources whether CW, NN, or free TPG price data available from phone.

I got a good deal recently on getting all the sheets once a month "the works" as they call it which works real well for me.

Your kidding lol - I don't think things or sheet going downhill at all, it's much improved and new improvement additions every much. The continuous improvement philosophy of the new ownership is fantastic. If you want the sheet just subscribe.

Wabbit2313

@CoinZip said:

If I had a subscription to the Grey Sheet, this would convince me to cancel it.....

Case closed!