225th Anniversary Sacagawea Dollar DDO? DDR? both explained.
Intueor
Posts: 310 ✭✭✭✭
Something is going on with the Motto “In God We Trust” on my 225th Anniversary Sacagawea Dollar. Experts, please weigh in. Could this be a Class I Rotated Hub Doubling? I purchased two sets. The “doubling” is in both dollars in each set but it is far more pronounced in the set pictured. It is definitely not “Ejection Doubling” since the frost is in-between the doubled area of the letters. Check out the “N”, "T" &"U". There is also nominal “doubling” on the “L” in “Liberty”. Sorry about the picture but I am not setup for detailed shots. I took this shot with my iPhone through a 30x Stereo Microscope eyepiece. Please check your sets. Maybe they are all like this.
unus multorum
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Comments
Machine doubling?
That is what I thought at first but there is no “shelving” and the satin finish effect is in-between the doubling of the letters?? If it were MD, wouldn’t the shift be shiny?
Are the arrows that point to the E and U showing split serifs? If so, yes DDO.
bob
Thanks for your interest. I am not an expert. It appears to be split serifs to me. It is most pronounced in the “N” but the other letters show it to some degree. This could be like the 1943 Walker DDO which was Master Hub doubling and of very little interest. I guess we will not know until others examine their sets. If it is found to be true working die doubling, then there might be a few thousand. Please do not think me rude if I do not respond for the next few hours, as I will be stepping out for a while.
Again I apologize for the crude images. If someone with better skills finds this "variety", maybe they can do the DDO justice.
Interesting find, and pics. I'd send it out to a variety specialist to view the coin in hand. I'd also scrutunize the coin out of the packaging too. thought I had a enhanced finish Kennedy DDR but once I popped it out of the packaging and really looked over the area it was lighting/finish/angle that created some weird stuff. Who knows, you might have something. Cool find, and good luck!
Looks to be.
Some type of frosting/die finishing error? It looks like the left side of those letters are frosted, and the fields to the right of those letters are unfrosted. Just tgrowing that out there!
Thank you for the advice and comments. Here are more images. I know notching is the best marker for DD but the laser cut pebbled surface is not flat so there is little field spread contrast. I was hoping that someone else would find the anomaly on his or her sets to validate the variety or at the very least, in the event of many, confirm that this is the “standard” die variation for the entire run. I will take the next step and try to find a variety specialist.
Discovery coin? Which TPG does the best job slabbing discovery coins these days?
Just curious... did you purchase your 2 sets online/by phone or in person at the ANA or one of the mint stores?
If it were hub doubling, wouldn't these be incredibly common? I mean, with a mintage of 225,000, there aren't probably that many dies that were used. A significant percentage of the strikes would show it.
Zoins:
I was thinking of just submitting it to PCGS and ask them to attribute.
smokincoin:
Online. Got shut out @12:05PM on the first day. Got the Mint email for the second batch and ordered two sets. They arrived August 9.
jmlanzaf:
Kinda why I posted. With only two sets showing this variety, I have no way of knowing if this is a working die anomaly or just Master Hub normality. I was hoping others would check their sets.
I have studied the coins for hours at different magnifications, lighting scenarios, and angles. I am no expert at this so, at the risk of making a complete fool of myself, this is what I see:
1. This is not a peculiar effect of the lens holder or packaging. I have exhausted all the possible viewing conditions.
2. It is unlikely that the doubling effect is “Machine /Ejection Doubling”. There is no trace of the characteristic flat shelf in the laser etching or doubled spread.
3. The identifiable notching is present but muted because the field of the piece is textured by the laser etching and lacks definitive boundaries.
4. If you examine the “N” in the above images, the laser etching appears to be IN-BETWEEN the doubling separation. This would strongly suggest that the laser etching was applied to the die surface AFTER the doubling had occurred.
5. Close examination appears to show the some of the letters (i.e. First “T” & “E”) are tripled.
6. Caveat: Sometimes you look so hard; you wind up seeing what you want to see!
Thx for posting and alerting people to it. I hope it pans out.
And great close-up up of the pebble finish on the coins.
GoldenEgg:
Sorry I missed your post. We posted at the same moment.
I think your right. The etching was set for where the devices (letting) were supposed to be positioned but the doubling caused the etching to superimpose on the doubled portion on the left side of the letters and the fields between the spread. The right side was positioned correctly and was not etched.
Interesting find...Perhaps Fred W. will chime in here... or, you could send them to him.... I do not think you will get an attribution from PCGS until it has been formally recognized. Cheers, RickO
RickO:
Thank you for your comment and advice. On your suggestion. I sent Mr. Weinburg an email and referred him to this thread to view the images and the discussion. I will keep you posted.
I think you may have something, strong possibility
BHNC #203
Treashunt:
Thanks for the encouragement.
Seems curious that no one has weighed in on other sets. Here is another image with annotations.
post pictures in the same light and same zoom of another coin.
I've got one! Just took time to closely scrutinize the (7) sets currently in hand. 6 are "normal" and 1 looks EXACTLY like these 2 pics. I am using 30X magnification on my end (sorry, no way to photograph it) so I can say with 100% certainty that they are identical. I don't know what this tells us, BUT, you are no longer alone Intueor! THANKS for posting this great find! I had studied these sets once before and missed it with my admittedly poor uncorrected vision. Under magnification it is quite obvious and pronounced.
just in case...
what date and time did each of you order?
and
what date did each of your orders ship?
EDITED for accuracy after fact checking myself......
The set I have that matches the pics was from Day 1....ordered 08/01/17 at approx. 12:06 EST. It shipped on 08/02/17 and was in hand on 08/05/17. This was a 2nd order of (2) sets. The other set in this order is "normal".
The first order of (2) sets I purchased was placed at 12:02 EST and both of those have already been returned to the Mint because of spotting on the Lincoln sets (so who knows about those Sac $!!).
When the Mint put them back on sale on 08/03/17, I purchased (5) more sets and those shipped on 08/07/17. All (5) are normal. This is the grouping that produced the Kennedy error half I have which is noted in another thread.
Darn it! I picked my two sets up at the Post Office last Saturday and kept my fingers crossed that I got decent coins with no damaged packaging. I opened the box (that had insufficient padding based on the racket that the contents made) but I was pleasantly surprised to find that all was well. I repacked them but will now have to open them up again to check the dollar.
BTW - I noticed that the edge lettering on the Sac$ was apparently done with the lettered collar that is used for proof coins rather than the machine that rolls the coins against a lettered die to imprint the letters. Makes sense, since the quality of these would have suffered had the circulation coin process been used.
My guess is it's MDD. The reason I say that is because the spread on a doubled die would be in the same direction.
On the E the spread is to the right, and on the N the spread is to the left.
My opinion.
Pete
With the 2nd one 'discovered' more likely
BHNC #203
Definitely understand your well stated point and would agree with that. I'm NOT an expert on doubling, I'll leave that to you, FredW, and the rest. I just want to say, that in hand, all of the letters are spread the same direction. The pics shown above are FAR better than anything I have been able to capture but still are kind of deceiving because of the satin/sandy finish on the coins. I suspect the "spread" you see to the left of that "N" is just shadowing from the light used to image it because it isn't present on my coin.
Got it, RB. That's the problem with pics. Good luck!
Pete
Answered in order of post:
MsMorrisine Post 1 (Picture)
Closest I could come is this 2009 Satin Finish Unc from Mint set. Same image setup
MsMorrisine Post 2 (Timing)
Online. Got shut out @12:05 PM on the first day. Got the Mint email for the second batch and ordered two sets. They arrived August 9.
RB1026
VALIDATION! (of possible variety) Glad you got one. Thanks for posting.
JBK
Hope you get one but now we all know what to look for. Thanks for the edge letting observation.
BuffaloIronTail
Your assessment is accurate but a little out of my “pay grade”. I was shooting for DDO based on my limited knowledge. If it is MDD that would be a plus.
Here is a partial email response from Mr. Fred Weinburg:
Although I deal in mint errors, I specialize in mechanical errors such as
double strikes, off centers, off metals, etc. Die Varieties can be a whole other
specialty area.
I did see your post earlier on the possible Doubled Die Dollar, and from
looking at the photos, they certainly look like it could be a nice doubled die.
[edit]
You need to confirm this with a Die Variety specialist such as Ken Potter
or John Wexler, each of whom can be found on the internet.
[edit]
_
Guess I need to contact one of them…….
Mine arrive today....will take a look and let you know. Bought after they came back available as was not able to get on the first go around.
Just want to add, regardless of what type of doubling this might be or what sort of error this is, it is VERY COOL in hand. The motto displays a sort of 3D "shadow box" effect where the letters are partially frosted on the left edges and the field to the right of them has shiny outlines of each letter. You can see it easily with magnification, Some of you might be able to see it without, but my 50 year old eyes can't see those kinds of details any longer
At any rate, there must be more of these out there so check your sets. So far, the documented count is 3 and mine came from a split order (1 of 2 with this, whatever it is)
I'm checking my 10 tonight...I love chasing the error coin dream...
Don't quote me on that.
I'm checking the shine on each coin and I am seeing varying degrees of shine on the dime, then nickels and some of the quarters.
of the lettering on some of the dimes are almost as matte as the fields. the difference is barely discernable.
I didn't see any as pictured.
ordered first thing 8/3 once they went back on sale but they did not ship until this past friday for some reason. I suppose I should not have chosen the slow boat.
Before we all go off on a “snipe hunt”, I think we need to have someone else provide detailed images of this variety. Earlier, I joking said that “you see what you want to see”, and RB1026 wisely observed, “the "spread" you see to the left of that "N" is just shadowing from the light used to image”, Lighting, exposure, and color biases are inherent to the shooter’s expectations and preferences. I readily admit that I favored exposures that brought out the effect I was trying to illuminate. Obviously, it would be counterproductive to take shots that minimized the effect. However, before we bother an expert with this “find”, we want to make sure that it has been subjected to our best objective scrutiny. If you have the means and have this possible variety in your possession, please send in new images to corroborate my photos. It would be a terrible waste of everyone’s time if I managed to accentuate a nice example of a “Die Bounce” (on two separate coins?). This is not “cold feet”. It is peer review. Thanks!
Best of luck but IMO you don't have a doubled die coin. I hope I'm wrong. You'll need to send it in to find out.
I just looked through about 20 of these coins and about 11 showed the effect you are seeing. The images above show the same coin in different light positions - both florescent as it reduces the reflections and glare that is on all the coins above. This one has the widest machine doubling of all the coins I looked at.
I would like to clarify a few things for everyone else who's looking for this Sac $ in your sets......
1) In my opinion, the coin in my possession matches EXACTLY to the photos Intueor provided.
2) I am viewing my coin with a 10x/30x stereoscope. Therefore, there is no guessing as to what I am seeing. It is crystal clear.
3) I consider the images provided by Intueor to be extremely accurate. Though there is some mild shadowing in those images, they are overall VERY accurate and representative of what you are looking for.
4) Unfortunately, I am armed with only an iPhone, and can't get any sort of representative clear pics (so far) of the detail on my coin.
5) I concur with Intueor that more examples are needed and will attempt to figure out how to at least post lousy images of mine
6) EDITED........... (Looks as though Insider2 and I were typing at the same time).......NEW INFO provided above in his post ............ it stands to reason there are more dispersed out there.
HAPPY HUNTING!
Insider2
Wow! A great technique to mask glare. I will have to learn to use that. I see the reasoning for your opinion.
Here is my quandary. The etching appears overlaid on both the left letter edges and in-between the spreads (check “N”). That would seem to indicate that the etching was done AFTER the die was doubled during preparation. This is supported in that the doubling in the letters is East to West but the etching “void”, clearly visible in your images, is in a Northeast direction. Wouldn’t MD create the shift in just one direction on each specimen and not two simultaneous directions on several different specimens?
For you sack I hope it is attributed as a DDO. You have eleven specimens! Thank you for your candid assessment. I have been at this for 24 hours and my objectivity is questionable and I know I am biased to defend my opinion but maybe not right.
RB1026
Thank you for your observations and input.
I am using an iPhone 5 with a 30x Stereo Microscope and a bunch of diffused lights of various K’s. I am using rubber bands to hold it 1/8” above eyepiece.
Very interesting about the etching. We'll need to wait until the experts chime in. Sooner or later Ken Potter will receive one of these in Coin World. Perhaps he'll write an article. Mr. Weinberg or Mister Delorey may see this thread and comment. Mr. Carr may be able to explain the surface texture overlap. All this is way above my guess. Still don't think it is a DDO.
Looks like MD or die damage doubling to me. I found something very similar on the Effigy Mounds quarters earlier this year. Dr. James Wiles looked at it and called it die damage doubling. If you go to his Variety Vista website and email him this page or pics, he will evaluate it for you for $8. It will save you mailing it off. He is the expert on this type of error.
Thanks for the photo setup info, Intueor! I tried to get pics in nearly that way last night but never got the mix right and my results were not worth posting. I hope to be able make some time again later tonight for another attempt. I hadn't thought of using rubber bands. Excellent idea.
On the coins, as I stated previously in this thread, I'm not sure what we have here (DDO, MDD, or ??) However, there are now apparently 14 Sac $ coins known (as of this moment) with something very distinct going on. The enhanced finish shadowing aspect is honestly more interesting to me personally than the doubling. How did this happen? How are there shiny fields which mirror the letters and enhanced finish on parts of the letters? At any rate, I have to lean toward the hypothesis that the doubling happened BEFORE the finish was added, because it overlaps it.
If nothing else, I'm looking forward to hearing from the experts in the field and learning something new about how these coins are made. Btw, Insider2, nice going on the 11 set stash! I was just 1 for 7 here.
Whatever it is, it is pretty common and unlikely to be worth a premium. It's present on at least half of the 12 coins I checked. I'd check the other 200, but I don't find it as interesting or exciting as some might.
I also agree with the earlier poster that it is machine doubling not hub doubling as it is not uniform coin to coin.
I bought 5 sets and they are all normal with exception that one of my Sacs has what I would say is a fine case of the chicken pox. It has darkorange spots on both sides. I will try and post a picture later.
BTW this is the second straight time I've received funky coins with spotting from the mint. I'm wondering if it pays to buy second hand.
Later, Paul.
Same here...looks like someone was eating while working.....
Don't quote me on that.
225th Anniversary Enhanced Uncirculated Coin Set
https://catalog.usmint.gov/225th-anniversary-enhanced-uncirculated-coin-set-17XC.html
SAN FRANCISCO (S)
$29.95
This product is currently unavailable. > >
Edit: oops..just saw the countdown in the main thread
1) coin with
2) coin without
3) same:
-a "camera"
-b time - of day & one immediately after
-c lighting
-d angle
4) shoot both coins (again on onne)
Post the pics
PLEASE don't ask me to find the coin and post an image - PLEASE. Anyway, two of the coins with the MD have the start of a die break between the "E" and "T" in my photo above.
THANK YOU! Since you didn't ask...
The OP post them
Your first photo clearly shows MD
Insider2
Your pictures of 5:07 PM and 8:11 PM are of two different coins that have two distinctly different anomalies. This difference does not appear to be the result of lighting angle. There is a visible difference in the letter “E”. Granted, they could be different manifestation of MD or whatever but the details are not the same. I am so sleepy; I see DDO on the left and MD on the right. How’s that for ambivalence! This just keeps getting “curiouser & curiouser”. There seems to be a shift of opinion toward MD and away from DDO. I think I will sleep on it.
PS. MsMorrisine - What's an OP?
OP
Original poster (you)
Original post (yours)
Both of his photos are clearly MD
A true DD would have the doubled letters on the same levels
Check out a 72 or 55 DDO cent