@CrissCriss said:
95% of the responses have nothing to do with the post; several are personal shots. Muffins, what cards were sold? Prices are relative - a card selling for $10K might have sold for $15K last year.
Buyer's market on the horizon perhaps.
i was at a card show. not at a proctologist convention.
and as far as morgoth's review from another board goes, the 52 topps is not a rc. and quoting vcp isnt really helping much either, but he did pay a bit more though...
@Time4aGansett said:
Could it be nobody wants to admit the Crisser is right?
I always welcome discount prices but this is more about one poster's attempt to get members banned by trolling.
Nope, not at all.
Criss gave an opinion, and the majority of responses to his opinion came back as trolling to me.
If Criss is right, would anyone honestly give him credit for being so? Just a simple yes or no question.
I don't judge anyone, as I see many others here do. That gets people banned for trolling, not me asking a simple question that nobody has answered.
people have answered his question. he has yet to reply if his "proclamation" is in regards to the top 150 sportscards. sure, he has listed a few key hof rc, in which hard evidence was presented of widespread manipulation, so naturally those cards would come back down (if you factor in the manipulation-effect).
conversley, people have listed cards that are soaring.
as stated numerous times before, attempting to blanket the entire card market w chicken-little claims is feebly futile.
Criss and everyone else is right. All markets have hot and cold segments at the same time. Everyone's comments indicate whether they are in the hot or cold segment. As such, it doesn't mean anyone is totally right or wrong with their opinion, however, markets due tend to change.
Enjoy your collecting, no matter what others may negatively say about it.
The vintage RC boom of 2016 is killing some dealers in 2017. Many paid a lot for the inventory they have in 2016 and cannot move their cards. The guy I bought my Clemente off of lost over 1K on the card and I still paid over VCP by a good amount. Dealer after dealer had the same story about their inventory losing money. It proves to me that it was a manipulation and we are headed back to more normal levels for some cards.
Or maybe it's the same phenomenon we've all seen with lower pop vintage commons in the past when one or two heavy hitters take on a set at the same time: prices jump like crazy temporarily,and then each card returns to normal once the big fish fill their set. The ultra high end RC market isn't as narrow as a registry set, but it still wouldn't take many heavy hitters to enter the market to jump prices up substantially. But once they've filled their needs...
I'm not saying that no one tried to manipulate prices, but I do think people underestimate how difficult it would be to pull off in a manner that's profitable. Years ago a collector (godswork?) was bidding on virtually every psa 9 Rickey Henderson rookie, and winning many of them . This went on for a very long time. Prices still remained relatively flat during that time period.
In the end, it doesn't really matter if the buyer's intent is to collect, to launder, or to try and influence prices. Once high end buyers enter and leave a market, prices will go up and down. Remember the effect on vintage football when MOSH left the market? But that doesn't mean other high end buyers won't later enter the market, repeating the cycle.
@djr said:
Does anyone know the identity of Crisser? Has anyone made a buy / sell or meet Crisser in person? It was my understanding, the National was going to be his coming out party but he did not stand up. Until we learn if Crisser is an alt, previously banned member, etc, most will view his musings with skepticism. Crisser is clearly an expert collector / dealer, with valuable opinions, net positive to CU boards. I appreciate his/her insights. Thank you!
Leaning towards alt, may be an ip address check by the mods is in order?
Not sure what he is doing that's so wrong? He is just trying to be insightful and or funny at the same time? Whether or not he is or not is not a reason for a ban is it?
@Dpeck100 said:
It should be pretty easy to tell if high dollar cards were turning over or were just sitting in cases with price tags that were too high to entice buyers.
So were they moving or not?
With regard to high dollar cards sitting in cases with high (or way too high) price tags...
I had my eye out specifically for PSA graded cards for my 1956 Topps set and for nice vintage rookies to add to my recently started Post War HOF Rookies set. I will say, the vast majority of what I saw on Wednesday, was still there to be seen and had Saturday evening. If some moved on Sunday as dealers looked to make some last minute scratch, that I'm not sure, I was out of the hunt then!
@Dpeck100 said:
It should be pretty easy to tell if high dollar cards were turning over or were just sitting in cases with price tags that were too high to entice buyers.
So were they moving or not?
With regard to high dollar cards sitting in cases with high (or way too high) price tags...
I had my eye out specifically for PSA graded cards for my 1956 Topps set and for nice vintage rookies to add to my recently started Post War HOF Rookies set. I will say, the vast majority of what I saw on Wednesday, was still there to be seen and had Saturday evening. If some moved on Sunday as dealers looked to make some last minute scratch, that I'm not sure, I was out of the hunt then!
The followup question, since you always need a control, is how that would compare to past nationals. I never really thought of high-end graded cards as being good inventory for shows since the market for those cards is much narrower than the market for their cheap raw brethren, but the national does draw more people than the average show.
@Dpeck100 said:
It should be pretty easy to tell if high dollar cards were turning over or were just sitting in cases with price tags that were too high to entice buyers.
So were they moving or not?
With regard to high dollar cards sitting in cases with high (or way too high) price tags...
I had my eye out specifically for PSA graded cards for my 1956 Topps set and for nice vintage rookies to add to my recently started Post War HOF Rookies set. I will say, the vast majority of what I saw on Wednesday, was still there to be seen and had Saturday evening. If some moved on Sunday as dealers looked to make some last minute scratch, that I'm not sure, I was out of the hunt then!
The followup question, since you always need a control, is how that would compare to past nationals. I never really thought of high-end graded cards as being good inventory for shows since the market for those cards is much narrower than the market for their cheap raw brethren, but the national does draw more people than the average show.
I can't really compare to past nationals, this was the first National I've attended since the 2011 show. I must note though, that there is a big difference between high dollar and high-end. A 52 Topps Mantle in PSA 3 is still high dollar, but certainly not high-end. The National is the show, of shows, for high dollar items... as far as shows are concerned. There was also a lot of high-end cards at the National too, but the vast majority of those are not for sale. The major auction houses are set up there too and show them off for upcoming auctions.
I don't know if it's the aftermath of the run up last year and how much many of these dealers may have sunk into their inventory the last few years... or just plain stubbornness. High dollar and/or quality vintage just didn't seem to be moving like I've seen in the past. Prices were just too high relative to the market today. I go to most of the big shows in Chicago, so it wasn't just a National problem... but far too many dealers of this type of product simply don't want to listen to reason when you start talking about recent eBay sales and VCP ranges and averages. If I can buy a card for $750 all day on eBay, or $700 off a facebook group or forum... I'm not going to pay you $825 to $900 for it. I do not care how much you have into it, how much it cost you to travel there, or what your table fee was... if you're not selling at, or close to, market, I'm not buying from you. This year, to me, it seemed there were more vintage dealers there simply showing off their inventory, rather than looking to sell it... reality be damned!
The modern sellers, the younger dealers... those with eBay and market savvy... totally different story. Much easier to work with and get fair deals.
I would say that my inventory sold at a same or higher rate than previous nationals. Keep in mind that many many deals happen on Tuesday and Wednesday on setup days. Those are always my biggest selling days, and a huge percentage of my stuff is already gone by the time the show "opens" on Wednesday evening.
Jeff
Jeff Foy/Dave Foy Card Country Graded stars 1950's-1980
@cardcountry said:
I would say that my inventory sold at a same or higher rate than previous nationals. Keep in mind that many many deals happen on Tuesday and Wednesday on setup days. Those are always my biggest selling days, and a huge percentage of my stuff is already gone by the time the show "opens" on Wednesday evening.
Jeff
This is not directed at you specifically, as I know this to be the case with 99% of the dealers that set up at the National, but feel free to respond if you'd like. This has always been one of my pet peeves about the National, since I first attended one in 2004. It is pretty common knowledge that most of the real deals happen before the show even opens to the public. If you're not a dealer or vendor with access on Tuesday, you're missing the best stuff!
The National is the largest card show in the world. Tens of thousands of collectors come from the world over to attend. You said it yourself, a huge percentage of your stuff was gone by the time the show opened. I 100% do not blame any dealer for making their money anyway they can... but how does it serve the hobby to have the largest percentage of good stuff gone (or spoken for), before the largest percentage of people coming to buy it can see it, at the largest card show in the world, held only once a year?
@bcubs said:
Have their been any efforts to identify if there were a core group of individuals manipulating the market or if it was more widespread?
Same dudes on the grassy knoll
It's hardly that much of a mystery.
Names of some of the manipulators, and the auction houses who knew it was happening and looked the other way because their BPs were being enhanced, are known to some. There is a thread over on NET54 where some of these people started pointing fingers at each other that exposes some of them.
Many of the people that are there on Tuesday and Wednesday are collectors that get passes. My take is that if people pay the price that I need for a card, it doesn't matter to me if they are a dealer or collector. I do not give any special deals to either. But dealers need cards to sell and collectors need cards to buy. So it works out overall.
Jeff Foy/Dave Foy Card Country Graded stars 1950's-1980
So I guess if you wanted to go big and have a chance at the great stuff you pay to set up so you can be there on Monday and Tuesday. Not a bad idea actually. That is if and when a table is open
@cardcountry said:
I would say that my inventory sold at a same or higher rate than previous nationals. Keep in mind that many many deals happen on Tuesday and Wednesday on setup days. Those are always my biggest selling days, and a huge percentage of my stuff is already gone by the time the show "opens" on Wednesday evening.
Jeff
This is not directed at you specifically, as I know this to be the case with 99% of the dealers that set up at the National, but feel free to respond if you'd like. This has always been one of my pet peeves about the National, since I first attended one in 2004. It is pretty common knowledge that most of the real deals happen before the show even opens to the public. If you're not a dealer or vendor with access on Tuesday, you're missing the best stuff!
The National is the largest card show in the world. Tens of thousands of collectors come from the world over to attend. You said it yourself, a huge percentage of your stuff was gone by the time the show opened. I 100% do not blame any dealer for making their money anyway they can... but how does it serve the hobby to have the largest percentage of good stuff gone (or spoken for), before the largest percentage of people coming to buy it can see it, at the largest card show in the world, held only once a year?
As a dealer, I'd love to get your take on that.
It is an interesting dynamic for sure. I try to put myself in a dealer's shoes to imagine what is happening. Are the items mispriced? I doubt it. Are dealers with connected customers with deep pockets paying whatever it takes to get a hard to find item. Maybe. There is also probably a bit of networking and dealers helping each other. If a fellow dealer wants an item on your table, help them out and maybe the help you later. Just some guesses.
In my case, I was working on deals before the National started and into Day 1, all via text and Facebook. The dynamics of the market are changing and maybe some dealers haven't embraced the full capabilities of the modern day market.
Joe
IG: goatcollectibles23
The biggest lesson I've learned in this hobby, and in life, is that if you have a strong conviction, you owe it to yourself to see it through. Don't sell yourself, or your investments, short. Unless the facts change. Then sell it all.
@djr said:
Does anyone know the identity of Crisser? Has anyone made a buy / sell or meet Crisser in person? It was my understanding, the National was going to be his coming out party but he did not stand up. Until we learn if Crisser is an alt, previously banned member, etc, most will view his musings with skepticism. Crisser is clearly an expert collector / dealer, with valuable opinions, net positive to CU boards. I appreciate his/her insights. Thank you!
I offered to meet and even cover his meal at Gibson's but not a peep. I also have my real name (Keith Conrad), and you can see my photo in Stone193's (Mike's) post. I am the second guy on the right standing with the grey tee shirt. Met a lot of great board members again at the National which was the best part - Steve, Dave, Mike, Manny, Nathan, Mike(cpa)... - way too many to name. Funny thing is for 3 days I have to go by Kendall so some people know who I am - Keith Jr even was called Kendall Jr.
Best part of the National is the people. The cards mean nothing without sharing experiences, friendships, bonding, seeing what each guy picked up.... Stone grabbed a sweet game, Steve an awesome 73 box, Manny grabbed some awesome 70's racks. To be on a board or part of a community is cool - it literally has become the modern day card shop where you show others what you picked up and even sell a few things.
Crisser has his opinion which many think is negative, and seems that calling for a bottom or the sky is falling is his M.O. Not sure of the motive for constantly saying "sales were down, plenty of tables available, dealers left early, card market is crashing" .... I have my theories and will share them at some point. What I don't understand is why Crisser wants to engage others on the board, but has a problem joining in with us? Why not meet us at the show and join in the fun? Why stay in the shadows and not join in or be afraid to show your face or say "hi my name is Joe Smith and I used to do 70's sets and now I do 70's unopened" Not everything is a complete mystery about the man!
I had planned on doing the Friday meet at BBCE but my son and I got caught up looking at stuff and when I did a time check it was 2:45. Next year I'm setting an alarm. Maybe we can get a smaller meet up in November if anyone is going to the fanatics show in Chicago.
@djr said:
Does anyone know the identity of Crisser? Has anyone made a buy / sell or meet Crisser in person? It was my understanding, the National was going to be his coming out party but he did not stand up. Until we learn if Crisser is an alt, previously banned member, etc, most will view his musings with skepticism. Crisser is clearly an expert collector / dealer, with valuable opinions, net positive to CU boards. I appreciate his/her insights. Thank you!
I offered to meet and even cover his meal at Gibson's but not a peep. I also have my real name (Keith Conrad), and you can see my photo in Stone193's (Mike's) post. I am the second guy on the right standing with the grey tee shirt. Met a lot of great board members again at the National which was the best part - Steve, Dave, Mike, Manny, Nathan, Mike(cpa)... - way too many to name. Funny thing is for 3 days I have to go by Kendall so some people know who I am - Keith Jr even was called Kendall Jr.
Best part of the National is the people. The cards mean nothing without sharing experiences, friendships, bonding, seeing what each guy picked up.... Stone grabbed a sweet game, Steve an awesome 73 box, Manny grabbed some awesome 70's racks. To be on a board or part of a community is cool - it literally has become the modern day card shop where you show others what you picked up and even sell a few things.
Crisser has his opinion which many think is negative, and seems that calling for a bottom or the sky is falling is his M.O. Not sure of the motive for constantly saying "sales were down, plenty of tables available, dealers left early, card market is crashing" .... I have my theories and will share them at some point. What I don't understand is why Crisser wants to engage others on the board, but has a problem joining in with us? Why not meet us at the show and join in the fun? Why stay in the shadows and not join in or be afraid to show your face or say "hi my name is Joe Smith and I used to do 70's sets and now I do 70's unopened" Not everything is a complete mystery about the man!
This is a little off-topic, but I was watching a box break last night for 2017 Topps Chrome Baseball and the cards happen to have social media contact for the respective players on the back. On "big hits", the dealer was going to take a pic of the card and sub-tweet that player with a picture of it. It is a small technique, but it was all about making the experience more enjoyable his customers and increasing the profile of the business. I thought it was a clever idea for what amounts to a small time investment that may potentially explode if that player retweets or responds.
Joe
IG: goatcollectibles23
The biggest lesson I've learned in this hobby, and in life, is that if you have a strong conviction, you owe it to yourself to see it through. Don't sell yourself, or your investments, short. Unless the facts change. Then sell it all.
@djr said:
Does anyone know the identity of Crisser? Has anyone made a buy / sell or meet Crisser in person? It was my understanding, the National was going to be his coming out party but he did not stand up. Until we learn if Crisser is an alt, previously banned member, etc, most will view his musings with skepticism. Crisser is clearly an expert collector / dealer, with valuable opinions, net positive to CU boards. I appreciate his/her insights. Thank you!
I offered to meet and even cover his meal at Gibson's but not a peep. I also have my real name (Keith Conrad), and you can see my photo in Stone193's (Mike's) post. I am the second guy on the right standing with the grey tee shirt. Met a lot of great board members again at the National which was the best part - Steve, Dave, Mike, Manny, Nathan, Mike(cpa)... - way too many to name. Funny thing is for 3 days I have to go by Kendall so some people know who I am - Keith Jr even was called Kendall Jr.
Best part of the National is the people. The cards mean nothing without sharing experiences, friendships, bonding, seeing what each guy picked up.... Stone grabbed a sweet game, Steve an awesome 73 box, Manny grabbed some awesome 70's racks. To be on a board or part of a community is cool - it literally has become the modern day card shop where you show others what you picked up and even sell a few things.
Crisser has his opinion which many think is negative, and seems that calling for a bottom or the sky is falling is his M.O. Not sure of the motive for constantly saying "sales were down, plenty of tables available, dealers left early, card market is crashing" .... I have my theories and will share them at some point. What I don't understand is why Crisser wants to engage others on the board, but has a problem joining in with us? Why not meet us at the show and join in the fun? Why stay in the shadows and not join in or be afraid to show your face or say "hi my name is Joe Smith and I used to do 70's sets and now I do 70's unopened" Not everything is a complete mystery about the man!
KC
It was great to meet you Keith, your son, and the rest of the members at the BBCE booth. You are correct in the the hobby is much more enjoyable with others who share the same enthusiasm.
Collecting PSA 9's from 1970-1977. Raw 9's from 72-77. Raw 10's from '78-'83. Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks. Prefer to buy in bulk.
@CrissCriss said:
Keith, I told you exactly where I would be and when. I also told you that I was only attending early setup on Tuesday & Wednesday. You were welcome to join me at Gibson's anytime. I wish you would have. We could've reviewed your 53 Mantle & discussed the hobby.
Criss - you made zero attempts to contact me to meet up, and I told you my real name (Keith Conrad) as well and that I was staying at the Doubletree. Not very hard to contact me via a PM here, message in my room, note at the front desk... I can even leave my cell number on the board here, but there is no chance in a million you will contact me.
I can tell you I was not hard to find at all, and I literally met 20+ board members who are all great people and had a great time at the show. How is it that I can meet all of them in person, but not a single person on this board met you, interacted with you, had any dealings with you... Funny thing is you have no problem conversing with people on the board, but don't make any attempt to meet anyone on the board. Why are these folks good enough to message with on here but not good enough to meet with at the biggest show of the year?
I will be glad to meet with you any place and you can review my 53 Mantle - name the city, state, and address plus name and I have enough free miles from business travel that I can fly anywhere to meet. Just name it. Ball is in your court.
I will be glad to meet with you any place and you can review my 53 Mantle - name the city, state, and address plus name and I have enough free miles from business travel that I can fly anywhere to meet. Just name it. Ball is in your court.
KC
lol....
Crisser, PM me for a list of good excuses. The ones you've been using stink.
@Gemyanks10 said:
Kendall, in all honesty, and with all due respect, you are probably arguing with someone's alter ego on here. It's the Internet....
You are 100% correct about the alt, and we had some great guesses at the National. Believe we have some good guesses already but anyone that wants feel free to chime in. Winning guess wins some cards.
"This is not directed at you specifically, as I know this to be the case with 99% of the dealers that set up at the National, but feel free to respond if you'd like. This has always been one of my pet peeves about the National, since I first attended one in 2004. It is pretty common knowledge that most of the real deals happen before the show even opens to the public. If you're not a dealer or vendor with access on Tuesday, you're missing the best stuff!
The National is the largest card show in the world. Tens of thousands of collectors come from the world over to attend. You said it yourself, a huge percentage of your stuff was gone by the time the show opened. I 100% do not blame any dealer for making their money anyway they can... but how does it serve the hobby to have the largest percentage of good stuff gone (or spoken for), before the largest percentage of people coming to buy it can see it, at the largest card show in the world, held only once a year?
As a dealer, I'd love to get your take on that."
Only thing I could see to stop this would be for the Dealers to double the price of all there cards. That way the public could have a chance to look at X card and then have an opinion about the market value of it. I could see that helping the problem.
Speaking of PM's, I never got one from you either.
I think we are good. When you want to come out of the shadows you can PM me with name and contact and we can discuss privately. Not too hard to do, and figured if you don't make an attempt there is no sense in connecting. Thx.
Comments
i was at a card show. not at a proctologist convention.
and as far as morgoth's review from another board goes, the 52 topps is not a rc. and quoting vcp isnt really helping much either, but he did pay a bit more though...
Nope, not at all.
Criss gave an opinion, and the majority of responses to his opinion came back as trolling to me.
If Criss is right, would anyone honestly give him credit for being so? Just a simple yes or no question.
I don't judge anyone, as I see many others here do. That gets people banned for trolling, not me asking a simple question that nobody has answered.
people have answered his question. he has yet to reply if his "proclamation" is in regards to the top 150 sportscards. sure, he has listed a few key hof rc, in which hard evidence was presented of widespread manipulation, so naturally those cards would come back down (if you factor in the manipulation-effect).
conversley, people have listed cards that are soaring.
as stated numerous times before, attempting to blanket the entire card market w chicken-little claims is feebly futile.
its hard to hit the curve from behind.
I was referring to my question.
Criss and everyone else is right. All markets have hot and cold segments at the same time. Everyone's comments indicate whether they are in the hot or cold segment. As such, it doesn't mean anyone is totally right or wrong with their opinion, however, markets due tend to change.
Enjoy your collecting, no matter what others may negatively say about it.
Or maybe it's the same phenomenon we've all seen with lower pop vintage commons in the past when one or two heavy hitters take on a set at the same time: prices jump like crazy temporarily,and then each card returns to normal once the big fish fill their set. The ultra high end RC market isn't as narrow as a registry set, but it still wouldn't take many heavy hitters to enter the market to jump prices up substantially. But once they've filled their needs...
I'm not saying that no one tried to manipulate prices, but I do think people underestimate how difficult it would be to pull off in a manner that's profitable. Years ago a collector (godswork?) was bidding on virtually every psa 9 Rickey Henderson rookie, and winning many of them . This went on for a very long time. Prices still remained relatively flat during that time period.
In the end, it doesn't really matter if the buyer's intent is to collect, to launder, or to try and influence prices. Once high end buyers enter and leave a market, prices will go up and down. Remember the effect on vintage football when MOSH left the market? But that doesn't mean other high end buyers won't later enter the market, repeating the cycle.
Leaning towards alt, may be an ip address check by the mods is in order?
Not sure what he is doing that's so wrong? He is just trying to be insightful and or funny at the same time? Whether or not he is or not is not a reason for a ban is it?
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
With regard to high dollar cards sitting in cases with high (or way too high) price tags...
I had my eye out specifically for PSA graded cards for my 1956 Topps set and for nice vintage rookies to add to my recently started Post War HOF Rookies set. I will say, the vast majority of what I saw on Wednesday, was still there to be seen and had Saturday evening. If some moved on Sunday as dealers looked to make some last minute scratch, that I'm not sure, I was out of the hunt then!
The meet the Crisser thread will no doubt answer everyone's questions. Rumor has it Chuck Todd will moderate
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
The followup question, since you always need a control, is how that would compare to past nationals. I never really thought of high-end graded cards as being good inventory for shows since the market for those cards is much narrower than the market for their cheap raw brethren, but the national does draw more people than the average show.
I'm confused. Is the Kool-Aid guy banned?
Longoria Collector. Love the Longo!
600+ PSA Graded 4,700+ unique Longoria cards scanned on TCDB 800+ different Longo autograph cards Jeff
I can't really compare to past nationals, this was the first National I've attended since the 2011 show. I must note though, that there is a big difference between high dollar and high-end. A 52 Topps Mantle in PSA 3 is still high dollar, but certainly not high-end. The National is the show, of shows, for high dollar items... as far as shows are concerned. There was also a lot of high-end cards at the National too, but the vast majority of those are not for sale. The major auction houses are set up there too and show them off for upcoming auctions.
I don't know if it's the aftermath of the run up last year and how much many of these dealers may have sunk into their inventory the last few years... or just plain stubbornness. High dollar and/or quality vintage just didn't seem to be moving like I've seen in the past. Prices were just too high relative to the market today. I go to most of the big shows in Chicago, so it wasn't just a National problem... but far too many dealers of this type of product simply don't want to listen to reason when you start talking about recent eBay sales and VCP ranges and averages. If I can buy a card for $750 all day on eBay, or $700 off a facebook group or forum... I'm not going to pay you $825 to $900 for it. I do not care how much you have into it, how much it cost you to travel there, or what your table fee was... if you're not selling at, or close to, market, I'm not buying from you. This year, to me, it seemed there were more vintage dealers there simply showing off their inventory, rather than looking to sell it... reality be damned!
The modern sellers, the younger dealers... those with eBay and market savvy... totally different story. Much easier to work with and get fair deals.
Have their been any efforts to identify if there were a core group of individuals manipulating the market or if it was more widespread?
Appreciate today-
Bill
I would say that my inventory sold at a same or higher rate than previous nationals. Keep in mind that many many deals happen on Tuesday and Wednesday on setup days. Those are always my biggest selling days, and a huge percentage of my stuff is already gone by the time the show "opens" on Wednesday evening.
Jeff
Card Country
Graded stars 1950's-1980
This is not directed at you specifically, as I know this to be the case with 99% of the dealers that set up at the National, but feel free to respond if you'd like. This has always been one of my pet peeves about the National, since I first attended one in 2004. It is pretty common knowledge that most of the real deals happen before the show even opens to the public. If you're not a dealer or vendor with access on Tuesday, you're missing the best stuff!
The National is the largest card show in the world. Tens of thousands of collectors come from the world over to attend. You said it yourself, a huge percentage of your stuff was gone by the time the show opened. I 100% do not blame any dealer for making their money anyway they can... but how does it serve the hobby to have the largest percentage of good stuff gone (or spoken for), before the largest percentage of people coming to buy it can see it, at the largest card show in the world, held only once a year?
As a dealer, I'd love to get your take on that.
Same dudes on the grassy knoll
It's hardly that much of a mystery.
Names of some of the manipulators, and the auction houses who knew it was happening and looked the other way because their BPs were being enhanced, are known to some. There is a thread over on NET54 where some of these people started pointing fingers at each other that exposes some of them.
Dave
Many of the people that are there on Tuesday and Wednesday are collectors that get passes. My take is that if people pay the price that I need for a card, it doesn't matter to me if they are a dealer or collector. I do not give any special deals to either. But dealers need cards to sell and collectors need cards to buy. So it works out overall.
Card Country
Graded stars 1950's-1980
So I guess if you wanted to go big and have a chance at the great stuff you pay to set up so you can be there on Monday and Tuesday. Not a bad idea actually. That is if and when a table is open
It is an interesting dynamic for sure. I try to put myself in a dealer's shoes to imagine what is happening. Are the items mispriced? I doubt it. Are dealers with connected customers with deep pockets paying whatever it takes to get a hard to find item. Maybe. There is also probably a bit of networking and dealers helping each other. If a fellow dealer wants an item on your table, help them out and maybe the help you later. Just some guesses.
In my case, I was working on deals before the National started and into Day 1, all via text and Facebook. The dynamics of the market are changing and maybe some dealers haven't embraced the full capabilities of the modern day market.
IG: goatcollectibles23
The biggest lesson I've learned in this hobby, and in life, is that if you have a strong conviction, you owe it to yourself to see it through. Don't sell yourself, or your investments, short. Unless the facts change. Then sell it all.
courtney and david k. would be good starts.
then i would start w accounting execs at goldin and ask if that koufax was actually paid for.
imagine the snowball would start to pick up tremendous momentum after that...
I offered to meet and even cover his meal at Gibson's but not a peep. I also have my real name (Keith Conrad), and you can see my photo in Stone193's (Mike's) post. I am the second guy on the right standing with the grey tee shirt. Met a lot of great board members again at the National which was the best part - Steve, Dave, Mike, Manny, Nathan, Mike(cpa)... - way too many to name. Funny thing is for 3 days I have to go by Kendall so some people know who I am - Keith Jr even was called Kendall Jr.
Best part of the National is the people. The cards mean nothing without sharing experiences, friendships, bonding, seeing what each guy picked up.... Stone grabbed a sweet game, Steve an awesome 73 box, Manny grabbed some awesome 70's racks. To be on a board or part of a community is cool - it literally has become the modern day card shop where you show others what you picked up and even sell a few things.
Crisser has his opinion which many think is negative, and seems that calling for a bottom or the sky is falling is his M.O. Not sure of the motive for constantly saying "sales were down, plenty of tables available, dealers left early, card market is crashing" .... I have my theories and will share them at some point. What I don't understand is why Crisser wants to engage others on the board, but has a problem joining in with us? Why not meet us at the show and join in the fun? Why stay in the shadows and not join in or be afraid to show your face or say "hi my name is Joe Smith and I used to do 70's sets and now I do 70's unopened"
Not everything is a complete mystery about the man!
KC
I had planned on doing the Friday meet at BBCE but my son and I got caught up looking at stuff and when I did a time check it was 2:45. Next year I'm setting an alarm. Maybe we can get a smaller meet up in November if anyone is going to the fanatics show in Chicago.
Appreciate today-
Bill
Well said Keith.
Dave
This is a little off-topic, but I was watching a box break last night for 2017 Topps Chrome Baseball and the cards happen to have social media contact for the respective players on the back. On "big hits", the dealer was going to take a pic of the card and sub-tweet that player with a picture of it. It is a small technique, but it was all about making the experience more enjoyable his customers and increasing the profile of the business. I thought it was a clever idea for what amounts to a small time investment that may potentially explode if that player retweets or responds.
IG: goatcollectibles23
The biggest lesson I've learned in this hobby, and in life, is that if you have a strong conviction, you owe it to yourself to see it through. Don't sell yourself, or your investments, short. Unless the facts change. Then sell it all.
It was great to meet you Keith, your son, and the rest of the members at the BBCE booth. You are correct in the the hobby is much more enjoyable with others who share the same enthusiasm.
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
Criss - you made zero attempts to contact me to meet up, and I told you my real name (Keith Conrad) as well and that I was staying at the Doubletree. Not very hard to contact me via a PM here, message in my room, note at the front desk... I can even leave my cell number on the board here, but there is no chance in a million you will contact me.
I can tell you I was not hard to find at all, and I literally met 20+ board members who are all great people and had a great time at the show. How is it that I can meet all of them in person, but not a single person on this board met you, interacted with you, had any dealings with you... Funny thing is you have no problem conversing with people on the board, but don't make any attempt to meet anyone on the board. Why are these folks good enough to message with on here but not good enough to meet with at the biggest show of the year?
I will be glad to meet with you any place and you can review my 53 Mantle - name the city, state, and address plus name and I have enough free miles from business travel that I can fly anywhere to meet. Just name it. Ball is in your court.
KC
lol....
Crisser, PM me for a list of good excuses. The ones you've been using stink.
aconte
Kevin
Kevin
Kendall, in all honesty, and with all due respect, you are probably arguing with someone's alter ego on here. It's the Internet....
You are 100% correct about the alt, and we had some great guesses at the National. Believe we have some good guesses already but anyone that wants feel free to chime in. Winning guess wins some cards.
KC
Crisser, every time you turn around, expect to see Keith, 'cause one time you'll turn
around, and he'll be there.
Well, Kevin is doing lines' from great westerns, mine's from one of the greatest ever.
Get along little doggy.
what about houston?
what about detroit?
what about pittsburgh, pa?
outta know not to stand by those windows,
someone might see you up there.
southern georgia.
its the arm pit of the arm pit as far as humitidty goes.
chicago weather was absolutely perfect!
"This is not directed at you specifically, as I know this to be the case with 99% of the dealers that set up at the National, but feel free to respond if you'd like. This has always been one of my pet peeves about the National, since I first attended one in 2004. It is pretty common knowledge that most of the real deals happen before the show even opens to the public. If you're not a dealer or vendor with access on Tuesday, you're missing the best stuff!
The National is the largest card show in the world. Tens of thousands of collectors come from the world over to attend. You said it yourself, a huge percentage of your stuff was gone by the time the show opened. I 100% do not blame any dealer for making their money anyway they can... but how does it serve the hobby to have the largest percentage of good stuff gone (or spoken for), before the largest percentage of people coming to buy it can see it, at the largest card show in the world, held only once a year?
As a dealer, I'd love to get your take on that."
Only thing I could see to stop this would be for the Dealers to double the price of all there cards. That way the public could have a chance to look at X card and then have an opinion about the market value of it. I could see that helping the problem.
As a neutral third-party, I propose Tangier as the meeting place.
I know I'm new at this but can we all just say what we're thinking?
I'll take, "it's never going to happen, if criss exists, the hype of him can't meet his reality, so he won't come out,
"
I think we are good. When you want to come out of the shadows you can PM me with name and contact and we can discuss privately. Not too hard to do, and figured if you don't make an attempt there is no sense in connecting. Thx.
KC