Are extra large high resolution photos making people way too picky?
gtstang
Posts: 1,778 ✭✭✭✭✭
You can see every single flaw and defect that you won't necessarily see even under 10x magnification.
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I agree 100%. When coins are blown up to the size of dinner plates it emphasizes the flaws dramatically. I am guilty of this in all my photos. I am going to resize photos smaller when I post them in the future.
800x800 pixels for dollars is plenty. Even then the nicest coins usually look better in hand.
If I have high quality, large pixel images available, TrueViews, I use 'em. I may downsize them to what @BryceM suggested just to see.
800 X 800 Not a bad size at all...now I have to remember to "downsize" future images.
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"With enough magnification you can make any coin look bad."
Yes, I agree.
a good sharp image works wonders here. i dont like over blown pics, your right
Totally, it does...
I thought if they were to large that this website resizes them to about 800x800 until you click on the image then you get their actual size. Am I wrong?
When looking at coins in hand, I will sometimes lower my offers because I know that some problem will look worse when enlarged on a computer screen.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
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I am always amazed when I take pictures of my bust quarters how all of the sudden I see things that I never saw before. I agree that the pictures have made people more picky but I also agree that it is nice to know. I don't look at a coin the same way a grader or good dealer does. When I look at the high resolution pictures, it makes me feel that I am seeing the coin through their eyes somewhat if that makes sense. It kind of levels the playing field for me.
My images are usually taken in a very high resolution so even resizing will still allow us to see most details sharp.
This way nobody can say: I did not see that little, ever so minute ding in the fields.
That person simply did not look.
Very interesting question. Here is my take plus something from a grading instructor. I believe the standard recommended magnification to examine coins is 4-5X. Nevertheless, I look at virtually everything I can with a stereo zoom microscope set at 7-15X. This let's me see most of a dollar coin all at once. The reason I do this is I wish to see EVERYTHING there is to see on a coin so I can make a "better" decision on its grade, authenticity, and price. Obviously, this does not work at a coin show; BUT after looking at coins this way for years, I find that it is very easy to tell what's on a coin with a hand lens.
I got into this habit because of this: When you go into a jeweler to buy a diamond, he puts several "flawless" stones next to a microscope and sets the power to 10X - the standard for a flawless diamond. The wise buyer, zooms the power up to as high as it goes because one of the stones will have less visible defects than all the other "flawless" gems. That's the one I want.
Professional graders call this micro-grading when done to a coin! If you cannot see a flaw with your naked eye or a 5X hand lens, it does not exist!
I am amazed at the detailed images that are on the internet now. Some are just as I see a coin under my scope.
@291fifth said: "With enough magnification you can make any coin look bad."
I disagree, this is the usual "pap" directed at me for encouraging folks to look at their coins closely. True MS-70 coins (especially silver eagles & modern coin sets) exist with NO DEFECTS of any kind including a 45X examination.
@afford said: "But wouldn't you rather know than not i.e. when dealers tell you that they won't use greater than 3x or 5x mag and anything higher is bad then they may be purposely not wanting to know the truth about coin. Everyone's eyesight is different, extra/higher mag levels the playing field and see we know coin doctors are amongst us don't you want to know what has been possibly done to the coin to increase its price level. After all this hobby of kings is also known for its multitude of criminal acts/behaviors by sellers of coins. I rather know than not know, I rather she light on the coin as opposed to being in the dark."
This collector GETS IT! Common sense as this is not common. I expect both of us to be "called-out" for this opinion as ignorance is bliss. Just thought of something I was once told about the "perfect" grading service. Let's over grade everything. The submitter will be happy and the buyer will be happy and we'll be happy with the profits.
@hchcoin said: "I am always amazed when I take pictures of my bust quarters how all of the sudden I see things that I never saw before. I agree that the pictures have made people more picky but I also agree that it is nice to know. I don't look at a coin the same way a grader or good dealer does. When I look at the high resolution pictures, it makes me feel that I am seeing the coin through their eyes somewhat if that makes sense. It kind of levels the playing field for me."
I cannot explain why this is but I my experience it is true. A good B&W image with good lighting shows things our eye misses - even using a scope.
I think many coins look great at high resolution. It could either be great coins or more accepting view?
I forgot the most important things...after you see everything there is to see including things the 4-5X collectors miss, it may be reasonable to "back-off" and adjust what you find to the "real world." Best of all, there will be no surprises as you made an "informed" judgment.
Additionally, if you do not examine a coin properly (no matter the magnification & lighting) by tipping it and rotating it at the same time - you will not see everything there is to see.
PS There is no such thing as too picky!
I use screen shots
Coins are to be enjoyed at an arms length. Modern photography is almost like examining a coin through a loop. And yes, in most cases, it does tend to show more than the natural eye will see. This is sometimes good, and yet sometimes it makes you skip a coin you probably would want to own if you saw it in hand.
Her is a coin I posted for GTG that a lot of people thought was graded lower than it actually was. The coin is very nice in hand with a plus and CAC green bean.
Here is the same coin reduced in half.
And in half again.
The coin is still the coin but you can see the difference in how it appears.
i like hi-res photos. of course it magnifies the flaws...but i need all the magnification i can get!
So what did it grade? MS-63?
The money spent for them isn't worth as much as the enjoyment derived, in the big picture.
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It's a mixed bag of tricks, that's for sure. There is balance to be found and everyone has to find it for themselves. I like the coins images to have obverse and reverse side by side because it is easier to see how the sides match or compliment each other. Just having an 800x800 image of one side and then having to scroll for the other side leaves something a little missing for me, although I certainly appreciate the large size. For a long time, my images have been 1400x700 so the actual image of each side is in the 650x650 range.
As for the OP's question, the answer is yes but when forking over a lot of cash for something, I think it is a good thing. It certainly has the potential to be a real truth in advertising mechanism.
Here is a sample image of mine. The coin is raw.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
IIRC, it was Dave Wnuck who did a nice write-up a while back on his website about how some coins are photogenic and other, equally fantastic coins, just aren't. Certain surfaces and toning patterns photograph well and others leave the coin looking flat, flawed, or just unattractive. He passes up some perfectly good coins simply because he can tell they won't photograph very well. Despite that, in-hand most people would find them to be technically exceptional with great eye appeal.
Beyond that, It is EASY to hide certain flaws or accentuate certain positive characteristics of a coin when taking photos. Poor detail? I can try to mitigate that. A big luster break across the cheek of a Peace dollar? No problem to adjust the lighting to put in a shadow. Nice color? I know how to make that pop. Hairlines or a wipe? Easy to hide.
Still, I think it's instructive and useful to evaluate coins in a high-res photo. When making the go/no-go decision for a coin I'm considering on approval, I'll often wait to make the final call until I've photographed it. This probably biases me to "photogenic" coins, but it's amazing how often I find issues I overlooked in-hand or through the loupe. This is also true when submitting moderns where getting a 70 grade is great but a 69 is a waste of money.
One thing that's easy to see (and hard to fake) at any size though is luster. Look at the gold dollars in this grouping. Even though they're minuscule it's easy to see that the type 3 has loads more luster than the type 1 or type 2. Both the type 1 and type 2 are in AU58 holders. Also, the $10 Liberty eagle has tremendous luster. That coin lives in an MS61 holder. (OK, it's a a doily with a gold sticker, but it shows tons of light abrasions in a high-res format.)
@Insider2. So what did it grade? MS-63?
The coin is PCGS MS64+
I would like to add that I want to see every flaw on a coin that I can. I wish auction houses took larger high res photos. But when I am showing the coins off here I have already purchased them! I am looking to present the coin so that it appears as it does in hand. Dinner plate photos do not accomplish that goal.
I guess I missed the point in the OP. My point is directed more towards showing a coin off after purchase than before you buy it.
@keyman64 nice proof. I really like the way that looks.
Thank you. In a few months I hope to send in about 20+ toned proofs that are taking up space on my desk right now. Heck, a few of them might actually grade.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
I enjoy high resolution images. For me they open the coin up to true examination. @Insider2 mentioned something that I completely agree with him on, "PS There is no such thing as too picky!" I am a very picky buyer, every coin I see has to be all there and make me feel good about it, no matter if it's a $5.00 or $500.00 coin. If I don't like it, I won't buy it.
I use a loupe on every coin I buy and study it very well. There are times, when I am photographing my coins that something comes up that I did not see when I originally bought it. But that is the difference between buying a coin that was examined in hand and then viewing an image of it. Studying high resolution images of coins that are graded, teaches you how to interpret images of coins that you might not have an opportunity to examine in hand until after you have bought it. In this case, you only have images to go by, and the more detail in those photo's, the better your decision making ability on whether to buy it becomes.
Sure dinner plate size images of a dime will show off every flaw that might not be visible in hand, but I also know that I probably won't notice that flaw in hand, because I am aware of the size of image I am looking at. What that dinner plate sized image gives is a sense of eye appeal the coin should have in hand (assuming the image is not juiced or misrepresentative of the coin).
The way people buy coins has changed much in the last decade or so. There are many members here who rarely get to see a coin in hand before they buy it. They view an image of it and make an educated guess by interpreting the images. Go back 20 years or more, and most people only bought coins after seeing them in hand first. High resolution photography has opened up a whole new avenue to buying and selling coins. Learning how to interpret those images will make you a much more informed buyer and seller.
I like the high resolution images, especially for my Liberty Seated die varieties. Yes, a picture can be 'worth a thousand words'.....
This is a PCGS TrueView for an 1891-O, F-119 "shattered reverse" 10C.
I agree and for toned coins, some dealers light them in a way that makes them look much better than they are.
@jtlee321 What that dinner plate sized image gives is a sense of eye appeal the coin should have in hand.
I disagree with this statement. If you look at the photos I posted the smallest photo is closest to what the coin looks like in hand. It also shows the eye appeal quite nicely IMO.
I like large photos but it has been pointed out to me on more than one occasion that they are not necessary and that they actually can show the coin in a poor light.
I really like the way @keyman64 and others show their photos side by side.
Is this too picky:
I like the large pictures. I always had a Zeiss 3/6/9 loupe at shows. I see the minute flaws, however, usually disregard them... I look for definition, or evidence of tampering that may be difficult to detect. Learning from large pictures will tend to improve your skills even at 'in hand' viewing. Enlarged, you see things you may overlook otherwise, and once learned, they become visible even in hand. Cheers, RickO