Error coin Question: Partial collar vs Off center strike.
Insider2
Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
I cannot find a direct answer to these statements from a long-time numismatist who once worked for a major TPGS: "A coin is not considered to be struck off-center UNLESS part of its DESIGN is missing. Its design does not include the rim!"
Error experts - is this a true statement?
0
Comments
That is my definition of when an "uncentered broadstrike" transitions to an "offcenter strike."
TD
I would agree with that Statement.
I would add, however, "not considered to be struck off center
Unless part of the Design Elements are missing.
Many coins look 5%, sometimes even 10% 'off center', but
if no design elements (including denticles, for example) are
missing, it's a broadstruck coin, or an uncentered broad strike.
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Thanks so far but still a little confused -
Would the coin in the OP that looks off-center yet has all of its design except for a section of the raised rim ever be called a "partial collar?"
Just got some images:
Both these look like they were struck off center to me. While both do not have a complete outside rim, only one has part of its actual design missing. So that is an off-center strike.
What is the other called? Uncentered Broadstrike or Partial collar? I like uncentered broadstrike.
The Somalia coin on the top is off center -
it's missing the Elephants left ear section,
and part of the S of Somalia.
The coin below it is an uncentered broad strike -
there is no design elements missing (maybe rev?)
To answer Insider 2's question - if it looks off center,
but there's not design elements missing, it's probably
past the 'partial collar' stage, although there could
be collar marks on part of the edge of the coin where
that part of the planchet was laying at an angle in
the collar.
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
So, if there is no evidence of the color on the rim, either reed marks or in the case of these PE coins, it cannot be a partial collar - correct?
Not pinning you down without the coin in-hand but it sounds best to call the second coin an uncentered broadstruck as you and Tom have written.
What do ya call this one?
I call it a very neat coin! Is it a broad struck?
If "design" includes the fields, than yes, I would agree with the others.
With that said, few can differentiate between them or just don't care to.
@FredWeinberg posted: "Many coins look 5%, sometimes even 10% 'off center', but
if no design elements (INCLUDING DENTICLES, for example) are
missing, it's a broadstruck coin, or an uncentered broad strike."
Please clarify. If denticals are considered part of the design should a raised plain rim be also?
Denticles are not the design rim.
@GoldenEgg said: "If "design" includes the fields, than yes, I would agree with the others. With that said, few can differentiate between them or just don't care to."
I take it that the field is not included to make the determination. Additionally, what may seem very inconsequential to some may be an extremely important difference to some others.
Then I disagree with the OP definition.
Okay brain trust, what would you call this one?
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
No it's a partial collar strike. It's also pretty cool, interesting, beautiful and graded as a 64 by pcgs.
No disrespect @GoldenEgg but here is the "thing..."
I called a long-time, nationally-known, professional numismatist who works for a TPGS to ask a question about the correct terminology for a particular type of error. He has made a statement (See OP) that did not make complete sense to me.
So, in an effort to get another opinion from folks ON HIS LEVEL, I posted here for confirmation of his opinion. It seems what he has told me may not be entirely correct.
Two nationally known long-time professional numismatists (one IMO, a very modest error expert) have posted answers to my original question here. They answered one part of my question. Now I know the accepted definition of an off-center coin. Apparently, the coin's FIELD is of no consequence - only its design. Apparently the rim of the coin is not considered part of the design.
The problem is I'm not the smartest crayon in the box as I'm still a little confused. I think I read in one answer that the teeth around the rim (denticals) ARE PART of the design. That is probably not the case and I misread the post. Therefore I'm seeking additional verification to a question already answered.
Therefore, at this time I'm not interested in any members opinion regarding the coin's field. I have a more important to me concept to learn. Thanks for your help!
Thanks for the post. I'm going to hang in here until I get educated. Since a part of the design (trust) is missing the sent is struck off-center.
Why is this a partial collar? Because PCGS said so will not answer my question. The coin looks to have all of its design, only spread out. There is metal flow outside of the raised edge where the rim should be.
I am sure no expert so what can I say? I found the coin to be really cool, beautiful and interesting. So I bought it.
As they are so stretched out. Take a look at the "F" under the date. You'll never see another one like it.
Carry on
Edited as I forgot the mention how heavily struck the coin is in the central regions . Really struck hard and the letters in some areas around the rim look like they're hatching
The 1966 Cent is off center.
Notice that most of 'Trust'
is missing.
And,the raised rim is not part of the design,
as a raised rim is already on a Type 2 Planchet.
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
@FredWeinberg
While you are back, what about a beaded boarder or the denticals. I wish to make sure I understood your answer to me above. Sorry.
And, it cannot be a partial collar unless some of the edge is affected, right?
Fred,
You only looked at the obverse; the reverse design is fully on the planchet. I think the coin was broadstruck by misaligned dies. I used to have a 1966 cent with a die misalignment in this exact direction but struck in the collar.
Sean
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Or was it struck off center with misaligned dies?
According to the definition of an off-center strike - missing design ("rust"), your coin is struck off center.
I am guessing the raised line near the rim from 10:00 to 12:00 on the reverse was caused by contact with the collar. Depending on the depth of that ridge, I could see a TPG calling that a partial collar strike.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Sean, my apologies - I focused on the obverse only.
I believe you're correct - especially if you've had the
same date mis-aligned in the same area.
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Fred may remember back in 1973 I owned a '73 Lincoln that was massively mis-aligned to the tune of nearly 25%. I showed it at Error-A-Rama in Anaheim. Reverse normal save for the area opposite where no die pressure was exerted. A purchase from Lonesome John.
Error coins that are slightly off center/broadstruck/etc can sometimes be very nuanced. Here's how I define these errors;
Partial collar - The coin is struck about half-way or a little more out of the collar and is not really expanded much beyond normal diameter. Collar contact on the edge that is angled as a "tilted partial collar", if horizontal it's a "railroad".
Broadstruck - The coin is struck all the way out of the collar and it is visually expanded beyond normal diameter. All design elements show. A small amount of visual collar contact is OK, as long as the planchet is not in any way really contained by the collar. A coin that is well centered is a "centered broadstrike", or you have an "uncentered broadstrike".
Off center - The coin is struck out of the collar and some amount of design elements are missing, either on the obverse or reverse (or both). This should not be confused with a misaligned die error, where one die is out of alignment for the strike and this will be evident on one side of the coin.
seanq's 1966 perfectly exhibits where the boundaries of these error classifications can become muddled or compliment eachother IMO.
This is an information packed thread... would be good for YN's or others new to coins to bookmark for reference. Thanks for all the excellent contributions. Cheers, RickO
A stiff collar strike, is caused from a off center strike .
But this stiff collar has all the elements .
That should throw a wrench, in the production line .