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1786 Nova Constellatio U.S. Colonial Coin
JimSheldon
Posts: 39 ✭✭
At a 2007 Long Beach Coin Convention, I observed that dealer Tim Torpin sold a 1786 Nova Constellatio to Louie Moreno for $24,000. It was an ugly "cull" with rim bumps and a hole in it, so I asked why he paid that amount. Moreno said he had a customer who was willing to pay up to $25,000 even for an ugly space-filler.
Since then, I haven't seen a 1786 Nova on eBay and none at the major Coin Conventions in the past 10 years. I know that there are only about 15 known, with probably some of those being "repeat reports", but shouldn't there be an occasional one or two on the market in 10 years? Even my colonial coin specialists haven't been able to find one and I've bought dozens of rare U.S. colonials from them.
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Newman had a VF20 that sold in 2014 for $21,150:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/colonials/1786-copper-nova-constellatio-copper-pointed-rays-vf20-ngc-crosby-1-a-w-1940-r6/a/1215-3017.s?ic3=ViewItem-Auction-Archive-ThisAuction-120115
Several have sold at auction in the past 10 years (most recently the Newman coin linked above).
PCGS Auction Prices Realized is great for looking up this kind of thing.
https://pcgs.com/auctionPrices/details/1786-pointed-rays-ms/14814/814
Thank you kindly. Are there any currently on the market? I cannot find any on eBay from the past 5 years that I've been searching eBay.
....the hunt is what keeps things interesting.
You have certainly targeted a scarce coin.... Good luck in your pursuit...Cheers, RickO
The 1786 Nova Constellatio is a very rare piece. It is considered a contemporary counterfeit variety by collectors. Most known are in extremely low grade with major problems.
Over the past 15 years I have handled maybe 5 different examples, and I would say there are somewhere around 15-18 total known. Most are sold privately as the known examples are in tightly held private collections and at least 4 examples are in museum collections (the ANS has at least 2 examples).
There have been auction results. As mentioned above the Newman coin was the last public auction result (a very fair price for that piece I will add). The last one that I recall buying from auction was the first Ford coin (There were two in the sale one nice one and one very low grade example) which was quite high grade, back in 2005. I cannot recall ever seeing one come up on eBay ever, but if one has, it has been a very long time since it did.
With patience, one could acquire one, but it most likely would be in very low grade (G4 or worse). The finest known example in the VF35 in the ANS collection. It's just the way these come, and most often the date is extremely weak or not visible at all. A very cool piece.
For reference, here is the Ford, FCC Boyd, Ryder coin that I sold in 2005. The great thing about this example is the full bold date which often is not seen on these.
I remember - maybe 20 years ago? - Tom Rinaldo had a 1786 in a mislabeled slab (as a 1785)
Pacific Northwest Numismatic Association
Do the colonial experts give a reason this is a C/F? Punches don't match? Measurements? Repeating circulation marks? Poor design? Thanks.
Well, Eric Newman suggested the 1786 die was of lower quality and therefore was most likely used as either a contemporary counterfeit, or a poor engraving of the 1783 die based on possibly more orders for the Nova Constellatio series.
I think mostly this came from the fact that the 1783 Novas were US and script US for 1785, and then 1786 was back to US printed. Also, there is another contemporary counterfeit 1785 variety (also script US) that was also sold in the Newman sale (very cheaply I may add) that was cruder in many ways.
This is from memory, and not very scientific. As I recall, the denticles that show on a 86 Nova are also quite different from the 1783s but again, from memory
Thank you.
Not one, but two coming up next week at Heritage!
https://ha.com/c/search-results.zx?N=0+793+794+791+792+1893+1577+2088&Ntk=SI_Titles-Desc&Nty=1&Ntt=1786+nova&limitTo=all&ic=homepage-search-A-071316
I think that I used to own the first one.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
That one has a nice @DonWillis provenance too!
It's interesting that neither description mentions these are contemporary counterfeits. How widely accepted is the view that the 1786 pieces are counterfeits?
That seems to be the consensus. They're generally dramatically lighter than the 1783s and 1785s.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Interesting. Even Bowers admits that there is no way to confirm that these were contemporary counterfiets or not. Since there are literally hundreds of varying designs for NJ and Conn's, I wouldn't be surprise if there were different styles and designs for a 1786 compared to 1783 and 1785.
The Ford coin shows no trace of "U.S." in the middle of the coin, whereas the holed example currently offered at Heritage Auctions has a more complete U.S., probably the strongest I've seen, at least in my research so far. I can see why PCGS graded it VF.
I wouldn't kick them out of bed for being of a slightly different style, but the weights I've seen on these are about 25-30% lighter than the other issues, IIRC, which is the best argument for them being contemporary counterfeits.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
Agreed, but even U.S. Mint Large Cents and Half Cents in the 1790s varied greatly by weight, depending on how unevenly the copper sheets were rolled out for planchet punching. Silver issues of the early 1800s can often show mint-made weight adjustments. If our own U.S. Mint products were far from perfect, we can certainly expect uneven weights from private mints, especially in later issues that were often devalued or weight-reduced.
The one currently being offered by Heritage's upcoming ANA sale has five bidders with about a week to go, with their PCGS VF having the strongest date and lettering I've seen on any that I've researched. The denticles are remarkably longer than on any other specimen also, indicating perhaps an earlier strike that created unusually stretched-out metal-flow.
" Since then, I haven't seen a 1786 Nova on eBay and none at the major Coin Conventions in the past 10 years. I know that there are only about 15 known, with probably some of those being "repeat reports", but shouldn't there be an occasional one or two on the market in 10 years? Even my colonial coin specialists haven't been able to find one and I've bought dozens of rare U.S. colonials from them.
Hello Jim, and other forum members. I have a 1786 Nova in decent condition that I am ready to part with. The date is very clear.
Please e-mail me @infinitecrystalgallery@gmail.com
to inquire. I'll follow up this post with some pictures after I upload them.
-D-
There ya go. Feel free to make an offer if interested. I will be deciding which auction site to use unless I come to an agreement with someone on the forums first.
Best regards,
-D-
thats always a nice coin to have
I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but that's not the correct die pair.
What is now proved was once only imagined. - William Blake
What do you mean exactly? I've been searching the varieties... is there no known example of a 1786 with script U.S. ? What do you make of this?
Sorry but your coin is not good. The 1786 is only known by a die marriage with no other matings. I don’t have my plates to compare die marriages but my first instinct is that the coin is from known dies but the date was altered from a 1785. I will check my plates later.
These do come up from time to time, but are usually in low grade.
Thanks for checking for me. If this was indeed altered... is there still value to it? Care to take a guess?
I kind of doubt it but you never know. It is more like a novelty coin, at least to me. I would recommend that you show the coin to a reputable colonial coin dealer to see if he may be able to put a number on it for you.
I wish it were real as I have never owned a 1786 Nova. Oh well.
Good luck.
Available here for $25 (and you get a 1783, as well): https://coinreplicas.com/product/1783-and-1786-nova-constellatio-coppers/
Smitten with DBLCs.