Collector allowed to keep and sell NASA artifact after court battle

Zoins

This case may be of interest for US Mint rarities.

A collector, Nancy Carlson, paid $995 for a misattributed Neil Armstrong moon dust bag that she just sold for $1.8 million via Sotheby's on Thursday, July 20, 2017. She purchased it from a online auction of assets seized by the US Marshals Service.

After purchasing it, she sent the bag to NASA for verification who confirmed it was used by Armstrong and that the bag still contained moon dust. NASA wanted to keep the bag and a legal custody suit followed (sound familiar?). In this case, the US District Court in Kansas said that Carlson could keep the bag because she lawfully purchased it from the US Government.

This sounds similar to the Farouk specimen being granted export approval and 1933 eagle coin-for-coin exchanges. Imagine if a branch of the US Government authorized release of a 1964-D Peace dollar or another 1933 DE?

Article here: http://money.cnn.com/2017/07/21/news/moon-dust-auction-neil-armstrong/index.html

MICHAELDIXON

Very interesting! Thank you for posting! I enjoyed reading it!

keyman64

That's a terrible story with a good result for once. Thanks for sharing it.

Cameonut

I am SOOOO GLAAD that the dolts at the US Goobermint got the short end of that one.

MrEureka

Coincidentally, I have been planning to retrieve the flag left behind on the moon in 1969, as soon as it's viable. Can't see why that would be illegal, and the flag should be worth more than the transportation cost.

CascadeChris

Man. I would love to see the initial lot description on the $995 sale.

bronco2078

@MrEureka said:
Coincidentally, I have been planning to retrieve the flag left behind on the moon in 1969, as soon as it's viable. Can't see why that would be illegal, and the flag should be worth more than the transportation cost.

The flag is just sitting in hollywood on a sound stage where they faked the moon landing , just drive over and grab it

1940coupe

great opportunity for conspiracy theories to analyze dust and see if it is from Earth

spacehayduke

When I saw that, it got me to thinking which Apollo 11 rock/dust sample was in that bag, we got some pretty good stuff out of that mission..........

Edited to add - Additional information about dust and rocks sampling and subsequent storage:

lpi.usra.edu/lunar/samples/apollo/tools/

Best, SH

pennyannie

I saw that article a few months back what did it bring at action when she sold it?

Coin Finder

penny... 1.8 MILLION DOLLARS

Coin Finder

I bet the under-bidder on that lot is saying..... DOH!!

WillieBoyd2

Now if someone could find his "barf bag".

ricko

Found treasure... happens occasionally... like the gold coins in the piano recently in Britain. We all secretly hope to find 'buried treasure'...even if it is not buried. Cheers, RickO

BStrauss3

Of interest to us is that it became legal to sell not when it was stolen, not when it was recovered, but when the government (mistakenly) auctioned the stolen property off - that created a legal title.

So, say the government were to auction off, oh, say 10 1933 double eagles...

Coin Finder

I bet the under-bidder on that lot is saying..... DOH!!

Eagleguy

@MrEureka said:
Coincidentally, I have been planning to retrieve the flag left behind on the moon in 1969, as soon as it's viable. Can't see why that would be illegal, and the flag should be worth more than the transportation cost.

I read somewhere that the flag is now a grey/white piece of material that has been scoured by dust and solar radiation. Probably not recognizable as a flag anymore. Better factor that in before you take your trip.

Treashunt

Hooray!
The collectors won one, now for those 1933 double eagles...

SkyMan

Back in town after a nice summer jaunt.

Ummmm, where to start???

Yes, the woman cleaned up. Hooray for her!!! (Although I do suspect her lawyer did nicely too). Do be aware the $1.8 million includes the commission. I believe that makes it the second most expensive space collectible in history, after a flown Soviet era Vostok spacecraft (that had a gutted interior).

I heard from a high end collector friend of mine who was at the auction, that the bag only had a single (phone) bidder on it, bidding against the reserve, and that it was a LONGGG and painful bidding process to watch. I'm assuming the reserve was $1,500,000.

I personally think the bidder spent WAY too much on the item, and obviously I'm not alone, since, as mentioned, he/she was the only bidder. FWIW, these sort of bags on other missions will run you about $100,000 (commission INCLUDED). Oftentimes Apollo 11 items will cost you about 10 times what other mission comparable items will cost, which would put a price of about $1,000,000 on this bag. In any case, I do hope the new owner is happy with it.

These days, in general, there are two major space auction houses, and one hanger on. The two majors are Heritage and RR Auctions. The hanger on is Goldbergs. It's always interesting to me to see a space auction in a major auction house that does not typically do space auctions. Every other year or two Bonhams does a space auction, and this is the first Sotheby's space auction in maybe 20 years. IMO these two auction houses have many well healed collectors of other items that might have gotten a space auction catalogue from that auction house for whatever reason, and decided to bid on a space related item or two that piqued their interest, while having no idea what a reasonable price is for the item. GENERALLY in these cases we are talking about signed pictures.

I am often astounded by the pre-auction estimates that Bonham's/Sotheby's will put on the signed picture lots. In many cases these are 4 - 8 times what that sort of signed picture generally goes for... and yet some (not so) poor schleps will bid not only that high, but many times higher. For example, Sotheby's Lot 92, a 16 X 20 picture of Earthrise on Apollo 8 (NOT the famous Earthrise photo, but the precursor image before the famous one), with short, inscribed, written transcript written and signed by Mission Commander Frank Borman, went for $32,500. I won at auction last year the exact same picture (also 16 X 20). I will grant you it does not have the transcript. However, it does have the annotation, “Earthrise from Apollo 8 - December 24, 1968”, signed not only by Borman, but also by Command Module Pilot Jim Lovell (who later became the Commander of Apollo 13). All in, it cost me ~ $ 535. I could mention multiple others, but that’s a rather extreme example.

In any case, I do welcome the new collectors into the field. It's always nice to be in a collecting field where the collecting population appears to be expanding... and, thank the good Lord, I bought a bunch of items before it became a popular new collecting field.

Overdate

@1940coupe said:
great opportunity for conspiracy theories to analyze dust and see if it is from Earth

They already analyzed it and discovered that it came from a grassy knoll.

Overdate

@MrEureka said:
Coincidentally, I have been planning to retrieve the flag left behind on the moon in 1969, as soon as it's viable. Can't see why that would be illegal, and the flag should be worth more than the transportation cost.

Do it at night when no one can see you.

WillieBoyd2

Another Space Oddity:

Friday, July 28 2017:

A gold replica of a lunar module given to astronaut Neil Armstrong was stolen from the Armstrong Air and Space Museum in Wapakoneta, Ohio, on Friday night, according to authorities.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/nation-now/2017/08/01/gold-replica-lunar-module-stolen-neil-armstrong-museum/528164001/

JBK

I love hearing about these space collectables - REAL historical artifacts that can never be replaced. It is too bad the feds messed up and let it go, but I am glad the purchaser got clear title.

My space collection is pitifully small. I have a few signed books and photos, the best of which is a signed (not auto-penned) photo of Neil Armstrong that I got by mail shortly before he stopped signing in the early/mid 90s. For fun I have a packet of tomato seeds that flew on the Shuttle. I know there are some medals made from flown materials - I have a few various shuttle ones but would love to get an Apollo medal at some point.

denali12

@JBK said:
I love hearing about these space collectables - REAL historical artifacts that can never be replaced. It is too bad the feds messed up and let it go, but I am glad the purchaser got clear title.

My space collection is pitifully small. I have a few signed books and photos, the best of which is a signed (not auto-penned) photo of Neil Armstrong that I got by mail shortly before he stopped signing in the early/mid 90s. For fun I have a packet of tomato seeds that flew on the Shuttle. I know there are some medals made from flown materials - I have a few various shuttle ones but would love to get an Apollo medal at some point.

Have thought about a Space collection- have some patches and medals already- is there a site that monitors or talks about space and or medal collections? I've always wondered about the medals made from flown material- who is verifying that? or that coins genuine.. seems to be a big variance on that.. thanks for any help

TheDukeK

So this would go well with the bag?

SkyMan

@denali12 said:

@JBK said:
I love hearing about these space collectables - REAL historical artifacts that can never be replaced. It is too bad the feds messed up and let it go, but I am glad the purchaser got clear title.

My space collection is pitifully small. I have a few signed books and photos, the best of which is a signed (not auto-penned) photo of Neil Armstrong that I got by mail shortly before he stopped signing in the early/mid 90s. For fun I have a packet of tomato seeds that flew on the Shuttle. I know there are some medals made from flown materials - I have a few various shuttle ones but would love to get an Apollo medal at some point.

Have thought about a Space collection- have some patches and medals already- is there a site that monitors or talks about space and or medal collections? I've always wondered about the medals made from flown material- who is verifying that? or that coins genuine.. seems to be a big variance on that.. thanks for any help

A good site to go to to learn about collecting space memorabilia of many different sorts is collectSPACE. Here's it's link.

collectspace.com

I would then recommend clicking on the "Messages" link in the upper left hand corner of the webpage. Basically that links you to the directory.

denali12

@SkyMan said:

@denali12 said:

@JBK said:
I love hearing about these space collectables - REAL historical artifacts that can never be replaced. It is too bad the feds messed up and let it go, but I am glad the purchaser got clear title.

My space collection is pitifully small. I have a few signed books and photos, the best of which is a signed (not auto-penned) photo of Neil Armstrong that I got by mail shortly before he stopped signing in the early/mid 90s. For fun I have a packet of tomato seeds that flew on the Shuttle. I know there are some medals made from flown materials - I have a few various shuttle ones but would love to get an Apollo medal at some point.

Have thought about a Space collection- have some patches and medals already- is there a site that monitors or talks about space and or medal collections? I've always wondered about the medals made from flown material- who is verifying that? or that coins genuine.. seems to be a big variance on that.. thanks for any help

A good site to go to to learn about collecting space memorabilia of many different sorts is collectSPACE. Here's it's link.

collectspace.com

I would then recommend clicking on the "Messages" link in the upper left hand corner of the webpage. Basically that links you to the directory.

thanks for link! the forum is real helpful

TheDukeK

@TheDukeK said:

So this would go well with the bag?

That is an Original Preliminary Report about the first moon Rocks.
Just seems cool to me that it's the first report about the first rocks we brought back.