PCGS Restoration Service Question: One sided dip?
cameonut2011
Posts: 10,458 ✭✭✭✭✭
Will PCGS dip to remove all toning from the reverse of a coin without removing the toning from the obverse?
0
Comments
I would be interested in knowing whether a specific area of one side can be conserved too. With regards to milk spots, however, I don't think you can remove those even with a dip.
The last information I have seen, is that milkspots cannot be removed - at least not without further damage.
That information is old, and maybe a chemical engineer somewhere has discovered a 'cure'...but certainly I think it would have been big news. A lot of ASE's were 'lost' because of this issue. Cheers, RickO
Sure wish I knew more about this subject as you have raised an interesting question. I have been told that any one who calls themselves a "conservation specialist" knows when to do:
Apparently, each is done using different methods, Often with different products. Obviously, I should think that one difficult problem to overcome when working on just one particular area (spot or one side) is to keep the coin looking 100% natural and untouched.
Perhaps we can get a "coin doctor" or "conservation specialist" to reveal some secrets on this subject. Call PCGS. If you can speak to the person doing their conservation, ask if they will only dip one side for you.
For reeded edge coins, capillary action usually precludes a one-sided dip.
@RogerB said: "For reeded edge coins, capillary action usually precludes a one-sided dip."
Actually, a coin's rim is a huge barrier. Also, a coin's rim alone can be conserved without touching the field. Additionally, once a coin is in the slab (even w/ edge view inserts) it is difficult to see any unwanted evidence of cleaning that shows on the edge. Best of all, most collectors don't even look at the third side of a coin.
Most liquid cleaners include a surfactant. By reducing the surface tension of water, they permit the cleaner to enter fine details - also to easily overflow the rim, then propagate into the reeding.
Because something is not visible in a plastic coin holder does not absolve the owner/issuer from their responsibility of full disclosure.
A conservation technique taught to me by John Albanese in 1985:
Before you take anything off of a coin, be it grunge, PVC, toning, what-have-you, the most important piece of analysis of what's coming off is what's (hidden) underneath.
Take a small bowl and fill it with tap water to about 2 inches.
You favorite lamp next to it.
Put the coin in the water.
Turn the bowl at some small angle and watch.
Hairlines will appear, or, most happily, they won't
Not being conversant in optical physics, the exact nature of the shift in refraction is beyond me, but it works.
The lines are perceived as blinking more brightly Sometimes they're close to imperceptible except with this technique.
Before I did anything else, I would try this on your proof Frankie. You'll be reassured about avoiding a "trap coin".
In 1990, I had an 1860 $20 PR64, cloudy, goopy, might be cleaned up to to PR65. As is, partners and I paid $125K.
Seriously, more than a few calming breaths before I applied my "Jaws of Life".
Water test.
Same test with drug store alcohol, which is the next least-invasive solvent.
Did the same over again the next day. I was scared.
Beyond that, there are too many various "neutral" solvents, plus acids and bases appropriate only to various specific metals and finishes .... etc.
In this instance, I was relieved not to dip it. Likely overly conservative. It's hard to find proofs of this date of any denomination that aren't DCAM-, but semi-flashy original was heavily favored by that year's market And we (finally) lost about $20K on it the next year :'(
I will "agree" with @insider2 on using an ultrasonic cleaner, which I've been pushing here for years. He will likely experience this as abusive.
For the Frankie, a lot of the solvents above would work "somewhat", and maybe very well.
This is all somewhere between "Mr. Wizard" (1950's TV) and "Bill Nye the Science Guy", as fundamental as incrementally titrating your dipping solution.
@ColonelJessup said: "I will "agree" with @insider2 on using an ultrasonic cleaner, which I've been pushing here for years. He will likely experience this as abusive.
"
Not at all. In the early 1980's, a lawyer took me to visit a large "boiler room" operation in Minnesota. That's where I first saw an Ultrasonic used to brighten every coin they sold. Someone asked me to write an article about what I saw but I didn't. There really was not much to write about besides the cleaning. Since then, I have been very lucky to have access to a few heated Branson machines.
I highly recommend them; however, you better know how to use one or you will destroy a coin very fast 
PS We all should be extremely thankful for JA's "water trick" you revealed. I'll be trying it. Hopefully, we can weasel more easy to understand tips from you in the future.
@Insider2
You are 100% correct about the 3rd side.
I am guilty of neglecting that facet of the coin.
I am making a mental note to myself to remember the 3rd side.
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb, Ricko
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
I successfully did a one sided dip before on a Columbian Expo half that had some nasty spots of tone on the reverse and had a beautiful obverse. I used eZest. I used the cap from the eZest jar. Added enough drops of the solution into the cap to just barely cover the entire surface. I gently placed the coin onto the solution covered surface. let it sit a couple seconds then carefully removed the coin. Instantly rinsed the coin eZest side down with acetone so that none of the dip would run over the obverse. Finished with the regular rinse process. It looked perfect and graded at PCGS.
CAC liked the obverse of this coin and JA commented that he thought the obverse was MS66. (The coin is graded MS65.) The coin failed to sticker because of the reverse toning, which JA says the darker stuff is from improperly rinsed dip residue. Will PCGS conserve the reverse to make it blast white? I'm afraid to crack it and do it myself.
Thank you for sharing this!
Bulls-eye !
Watch out for warp in the plastic inside the lid.
I don't get the acetone as part of the process. I don't think the water in the dip dilutes as well or as quickly in acetone (colloidal suspension?) as would an immediate immersion in water; in your case dipped-side still down. I've been doing this for decades without a bad result.
YMMV
Surely interested in an explanation from someone with some post-HS education or research
JA is correct. Note how there is a sharp, dark division in the brown color where the flow stopped. Don't touch it as IMHO, it cannot be fixed in a way that it looks natural by a "rookie" or "wanna-be." The only chemical that I know of that can remove dip stains is more dip.
However, I'll guarantee that there are several people working at various TPGS 's - NCS (Dave Camire), PGGS (David Hall), CAC (John Albanese), ICG (Mike Fazzari) who could improve it if it were there's..
Additionally, experienced dealers like Bob Campbell, the Colonel, and probably a dozen more posters here on CU (take a bow fellows) could do the job for you. Come to think of it, as they are in a category all by themselves, I'll add any of the notorious and skilled coin doctors we've never heard of.
Just looking at the piece, my guess would involve "feathering" particular areas of the surface with very dilute chemicals.
Milk spots are serious corrosion with an exquisite euphemism. "Milky spots" I can work with. Further dipping usually increases the contrast between lustrous and eaten-away surfaces.
I remember when the Redfield Hoard came out. Much ado was made of Redfield's storage of peach juice in the same area as were the bags upon bags of coins. Not clear how many years or decades went by after they exploded and before they were discovered. Remember when and why loony LaVere got them. A hermit who never enjoyed his money. :'( What a romantic marketing tool.
Many 1924 Peace $1's had these areas.
Slap me down. It's been 40+ years.
I suppose it that's what you want. Simply coat the side you want to preserve with vaseline.
. Since then, I have been very lucky to have access to a few heated Branson machines.
I highly recommend them; however, you better know how to use one or you will destroy a coin very fast 
IIRC, @Sonorandesertrat has counseled that poor use of ultrasonic can crystallize the outermost surfaces of matte proof gold.
No pre-1816 planchets either.
I think the coin is market acceptable and so did CAC; however, as unusual as it is, I worry about a details grade for the toning which is why I am afraid to crack it.
@cameonut2011 said: "CAC liked the obverse of this coin and JA commented that he thought the obverse was MS66. (The coin is graded MS65)...I think the coin is market acceptable and so did CAC; however, as unusual as it is, I worry about a details grade for the toning which is why I am afraid to crack it."
I agree with everything you and JA say. If I were a professional grader I would send it to the next grader as a "details" coin; however, I think any TPGS finalizer would straight grade it as a 65 or 66.
Let Heritage auction it. They may be able to get the coin graded 66 or at least a 65 star or plus.
Furthermore, IMHO, there is not a TPGS that would agree to conserve your coin and NOT put it back into the same graded holder NO MATTER HOW the coin looked when they were done. LOL.
Then again, after conservation from PCGS Restoration, it could still end up in a genuine holder. I guess no guts, no glory.
Ultrasonic cleaners can work well...they can also destroy a coin. One needs to understand the frequency used as well as the solvent....We used them extensively in factories for degreasing parts and other cleaning needs. Left to long or subjected to excessive frequencies/solvents... the metal will become pitted. Caution. Cheers, RickO
...and just as important, whatever is touching the coin will rub against it in the Ultrasonic so be careful. One more thing. You MUST agitate the coin the entire time it is in the cleaner. Otherwise, as @ricko said the "scrubbing bubbles" that become trapped one one part of the surface will cause smooth depressions into your coin. I have images of this these types of damage but it would take too much time to find them - sorry
@Insider2.... correct.... we used a rotating barrel to keep the parts moving... obviously that is not the solution for a coin, unless it is small, in a teflon barrel..... Coins do not need an extended period in the bath..in most cases....Cheers, RickO