1850 Baldwin eagle restrike / replica coins from 1900s

Zoins

Has it been confirmed whether the dies were made by Albert Kuner or Stephen Kenneth Nagy?

Kagin lists versions in gold, silver, copper, brass, bronze, lead, white metal, and a uniface obverse on composite metal, with 2 in gold. Is there any other information available including mintages or issue prices? Are there whereabouts of the 2 gold specimens known?

Here are some examples on HA:

• Gilt White Metal NGC MS64 (most detailed description)
• White Metal MS64
• Silver PCGS MS65

Of note, NGC calls these restrike without quotes while HA and PCGS use 'restrike' in quotes, but since the are made from copy dies, they may be better classified as replica coins or copy coins.

Update: I've now tracked down the Robert Bass PCGS gilt copper specimen being offered by Russell Augustin's AU Capital Management, LLC:

"1850" Baldwin & Co. - K-1c Gilt-Cu Replica - PCGS MS64 TOP POP 0/1/0 - Ex-Robert Bass

• https://www.pcgs.com/cert/36749076
• https://www.aucm.com/1850-10-baldwin-restrike-silver-california-gold-california-gold-patterns-die-trials-and-restrikes-pcgs-31298059.html

Russell Augustin wrote:

1850 $10 California Gold Eagle Gilt Copper Restrike - Baldwin Horseman K-1c PCGS MS64

$8,750.00

The present Gilt Copper Restrike specimen is the next best thing to the unique gold Restrike we are also offering as a part of this amazing collection. It appears to have been struck off of freshly polished dies since there are striation lines lines evident, especially in the reverse fields. This Gilt Copper Restrike weighs nearly 40% less than the Gold or the Silver Restrikes. There are only TWO specimens traced struck in Gilt Copper. We are now fortunate enough to be able to offer the finest of the two for private placement now. Variety - Kagin 1c Metal - Gilt Copper Weight - 133 grains Diameter - 27mm Edge - Plain PCGS Grade - Very Choice Brilliant Uncirculated MS64 PCGS Certification Serial number - 036749076 PCGS Population - 1 coin. The present MS64 is the only coin graded at PCGS. NGC shows a MS64 (this coin, recently crossed over) and a MS63. Provenance - The Robert Bass Collection, The Finest Collection of Pioneer Patterns Ever Assembled.

During the early stages of the California Gold Rush, George Baldwin & Thomas Holman minted gold coins privately after billing themselves as the successor to Frederick Kohler, the new California Assayer. After acquiring Kohler's minting equipment and dies, Baldwin made $5, $10 and $20 gold pieces starting sometime in mid-to-late 1850. The 1850 Baldwin $10 issue featuring the vaquero, or horseman, was an original design created by Albert Kuner (his tiny signature appears on the obverse) while employed by Kohler but later brought into full production by Baldwin. This design, however, was so popular that sometime around the 20th century similar dies were created and used to strike specimens in a variety of different metals and then again in 2002 when several ingots recovered from the S.S. Central America were melted and made into $10 proof "49er Horseman" commemorative coins. Modern researchers believe these coins were struck from copy dies in the period between 1906-1910, and possibly by Stephen Nagy, because of the popularity of the distinctive "Horseman" design. While the coins were undoubtedly struck in this time frame, Adams may be correct in his proclamation around the year 1912 that the dies were prepared much earlier by Albert Kuner, who engraved the dies for the original Baldwin issue. This would account for all of these "Restrikes" showing evidence of moderate to extensive die rust.

"1850" Baldwin & Co. - K-1d Brass Replica - PCGS MS64 TOP POP 1/0

• https://www.pcgs.com/cert/36749078
• https://www.aucm.com/1850-10-baldwin-restrike-silver-california-gold-california-gold-patterns-die-trials-and-restrikes-pcgs-31298265.html

Regulated

I haven't seen the gold examples, but I've seen plenty of the other compositions. Kuner almost certainly had nothing to do with the dies, which have generally been attributed to Nagy, although I'm not sure whether that story is true.

They should be called fantasies, I think.

Zoins

@Regulated said:
They should be called fantasies, I think.

Any reason why fantasy would be more appropriate than replica or copy?

Regulated

Either of those would work as well. There are a number of Pioneer related items that have traditionally been called fantasies, so that term would allow them to be classified with the other, similar items in the series.

Zoins

The Elder-Garrett specimen is now being offered by APMEX for $12,182.30. This sold for $6,037.50 at FUN 2012 so a nice increase if they can get it.

Timbuk3

Cool !!!

MrEureka

@Zoins said:

@Regulated said:
They should be called fantasies, I think.

Any reason why fantasy would be more appropriate than replica or copy?

In this case, I don’t think that it is. I would only use “fantasy” to describe things that did not previously exist, never did exist, and never could be mistaken for the real thing. So, for example, I would have no problem with a kilo Baldwin $10 being labeled a fantasy, but would prefer to call the so-called Nagy pieces replicas.

OriginalDan

Too bad the real thing is so rare (and expensive). Such a cool looking design and such a departure from the norms of the time, at least the obverse.

boiler78

I prefer the original design.

Zoins

In 2014, the HA cataloger for the EPN sale still thought that these pieces could have been struck using dies by Albert Kuner, who did the original. While I can certainly see differences and I think the original is more artistic, has his been confirmed or ruled out? Are there any other works by Kuner to compare with?

Modern researchers believe these coins were struck from copy dies in the period between 1906-1910, possibly by Stephen Nagy, because of the popularity of the distinctive "Horseman" design. While the coins were undoubtedly struck in this time frame, [Edgar] Adams may be correct in thinking the dies were prepared much earlier, possibly by Albert Kuner, who engraved the dies for the original Baldwin issue. All "restrikes" show extensive die rust on both sides.

• https://coins.ha.com/itm/territorial-gold/territorial-and-fractional-gold/1850-baldwin-10-restrike-ms64-ngc-white-metal-gilt-k-1g-r6/a/1215-3465.s?ic4=GalleryView-ShortDescription-071515

Regulated

I suspect that the dies were made originally to strike the spoons that feature this design, although in the absence of any written evidence, we're all guessing. These are on my desk today, which amused me when I saw the thread:

Regulated

Also, based upon the breaks on the reverse, the white metal examples were struck first, followed by bronze/copper, then silver, and the unique gold example was struck last. The spoons are all early die state.

MrEureka

@Regulated said:
Also, based upon the breaks on the reverse, the white metal examples were struck first, followed by bronze/copper, then silver, and the unique gold example was struck last. The spoons are all early die state.

Not that I wasn't already impressed by Regulated's scholarship, but now I am in complete awe. I mean, does anyone here know anybody else who has ever studied the die states of souvenir spoons? And is not institutionalized???

Zoins

@Regulated said:
I suspect that the dies were made originally to strike the spoons that feature this design, although in the absence of any written evidence, we're all guessing. These are on my desk today, which amused me when I saw the thread:

That's great! Do you have any pics of the spoons? I'll did some searches but couldn't find any.

Regulated

I have a picture of one of the spoons on my server somewhere, and I think I have one of the spoons somewhere at my office. It might take some looking.

tyler267

I really like these types of theads, Thank you guys for posting

BillJones

Thank all of you for posting this information. It really draws the issue into focus.

Now I understand why the late Herb Silberman advised another collector, who belonged to the New Jersey Numismatic Society in the early 1980s, to tread softly when it came to collecting territorial gold. He stated that there were many controversial issues with it. I have since thought that he might have been talking about John Ford’s shenanigans, but I see that there are more issues beyond his activities.

Unlike Ford, I doubt that these dealers from the early 1900s were up to no good, but it still makes the issue of finding the original coins, which would interest me far more than the replicas, can be a minefield.

ManifestDestiny

Here is my contribution to the thread. From the Gold Rush Museum.

Regulated

@BillJones said:
Thank all of you for posting this information. It really draws the issue into focus.

Now I understand why the late Herb Silberman advised another collector, who belonged to the New Jersey Numismatic Society in the early 1980s, to tread softly when it came to collecting territorial gold. He stated that there were many controversial issues with it. I have since thought that he might have been talking about John Ford’s shenanigans, but I see that there are more issues beyond his activities.

Unlike Ford, I doubt that these dealers from the early 1900s were up to no good, but it still makes the issue of finding the original coins, which would interest me far more than the replicas, can be a minefield.

There are definitely tricky issues out there (some of which have even fooled the TPGs), but my experience has been that a little bit of study and some critical thinking skills go a long way towards figuring out what ought to be avoided. Working with a competent dealer also helps, I would imagine.

Regulated

Pardon the picture quality here - I'm set up to photograph coins, but spoons are evidently a different story. The spoons are struck from perfect dies - all the coins have die rust or spalling, which is easiest to pick up above the horse's tail. It's also apparent between the N of TEN and the 1 in the date, and behind the horse's right front leg.

tyler267

That spoon is pretty cool, How common are they, and and what price range do they go for.

I am assuming these were made around the same time as the restrikes?

Zoins

@Regulated said:

@BillJones said:
Thank all of you for posting this information. It really draws the issue into focus.

Now I understand why the late Herb Silberman advised another collector, who belonged to the New Jersey Numismatic Society in the early 1980s, to tread softly when it came to collecting territorial gold. He stated that there were many controversial issues with it. I have since thought that he might have been talking about John Ford’s shenanigans, but I see that there are more issues beyond his activities.

Unlike Ford, I doubt that these dealers from the early 1900s were up to no good, but it still makes the issue of finding the original coins, which would interest me far more than the replicas, can be a minefield.

There are definitely tricky issues out there (some of which have even fooled the TPGs), but my experience has been that a little bit of study and some critical thinking skills go a long way towards figuring out what ought to be avoided. Working with a competent dealer also helps, I would imagine.

I agree with both of you. It's definitely full of pitfalls and requires some dedicated study, especially given the amounts involved. The discussion here is invaluable so the more discussion the better for me.

That spoon is amazing. Thanks for the photos. I saw a Humbert octagonal spoon a while back which was cool too.

CaptHenway

Now that's a-spalling!

Regulated

@tyler267 said:
That spoon is pretty cool, How common are they, and and what price range do they go for.

I am assuming these were made around the same time as the restrikes?

I think I've seen two or three of the Baldwin Spoons in my career, and I'm certain they were made earlier than the coins - if I had to guess, I'd say 1894, for the California Mid-Winter Fair, which is probably what the Slug Spoons were made for.

A heavily cleaned one sold for $1,800 or so a year ago, which I think was cheap, all things considered. Ten years ago, I saw a nice one fetch about five times that.

Zoins

@Regulated said:

@tyler267 said:
That spoon is pretty cool, How common are they, and and what price range do they go for.

I am assuming these were made around the same time as the restrikes?

I think I've seen two or three of the Baldwin Spoons in my career, and I'm certain they were made earlier than the coins - if I had to guess, I'd say 1894, for the California Mid-Winter Fair, which is probably what the Slug Spoons were made for.

A heavily cleaned one sold for $1,800 or so a year ago, which I think was cheap, all things considered. Ten years ago, I saw a nice one fetch about five times that.

Is Nagy associated with the California Mid-Winter Fair? What is his first association with these pieces? Do we know anything about the origins of the Slug Spoons?

Regulated

Nagy had nothing to do with the Mid-Winter Fair - he'd have been 10 years old when it was held.

A lot of what we think we know about him is based upon stories told by Breen and others. One of them has him striking copies of the 1849 Templeton Reid $10s some time between 1900-1910 (he'd have been in his teens or early 20s). There were a number of spurious Pioneer pieces in his holdings when he died in 1958 - I'll try and see whether I can figure out precisely what these were.

Attributing the Horseman imitations to him is probably more laziness than anything else. Any pre-Ford pioneer fakes have been reflexively attributed to him for years. This is a subject that is probably worthy of some serious research.

Regulated

I dug through the library here and found the 1958 Kossoff sale that apparently contained some of Nagy's holdings. There were a handful of unusual Pioneer patterns - four to be exact, all of which were off-metal, odd-format Assay Office and Humbert-related pieces. The first was a lead hub impression of the 1853 Assay $20 Obverse, the second was a lead die trial on a thin, octagonal flan, the third was the same die, impressed into a thick, oversized copper disk, and the last was a group of impressions from a Humbert cartouche on a silver rectangular ingot. No Baldwin imitations, no Mass and Cal imitations (often attributed to Nagy), and no T. Reid $10s. I'll be trying to figure out more if I can...

Regulated

Sort of off-topic - right now I'm working on an pattern that is related to the Baldwin $10s.

Based upon legal testimony from 1852, Kohler & Co. are believed to be responsible for striking the Miner's Bank $10s - they have also been mentioned in connection with several other 1849-dated issues, although I haven't seen enough evidence to connect Kohler to any other companies yet. However, a single example of a Kohler Horseman $10 exists, struck over an 1844 Large Cent. I hadn't had the opportunity to see the coin in hand in over ten years, but was able to examine it and photograph it today (this is probably the only decent photo of the piece that exists).

Its obverse is struck from an EARLIER state of the die used to strike the Baldwin $10s, which show a die gouge between the L of CALIFORNIA and the dentils. This makes sense, as Kohler sold out to Baldwin on March 15th, 1850.

You read it here first...

tyler267

@Regulated said:
Sort of off-topic - right now I'm working on an pattern that is related to the Baldwin $10s.

Based upon legal testimony from 1852, Kohler & Co. are believed to be responsible for striking the Miner's Bank $10s - they have also been mentioned in connection with several other 1849-dated issues, although I haven't seen enough evidence to connect Kohler to any other companies yet. However, a single example of a Kohler Horseman $10 exists, struck over an 1844 Large Cent. I hadn't had the opportunity to see the coin in hand in over ten years, but was able to examine it and photograph it today (this is probably the only decent photo of the piece that exists).

Its obverse is struck from an EARLIER state of the die used to strike the Baldwin $10s, which show a die gouge between the L of CALIFORNIA and the dentils. This makes sense, as Kohler sold out to Baldwin on March 15th, 1850.

You read it here first...

Very cool!

Zoins

That's awesome info @Regulated!

The Frederick D. Kohler & Co piece is awesome. The Baldwin Vaquero die is from and related to the first California State Assayer! Fred sold his private assay business to Baldwin & Co., owned by George C. Baldwin and Thomas S. Holman, because he had been appointed as the first California State Assayer under Director O.P. Sutton. Of note Kohler was also the Chief Engineer of the San Francisco Volunteer Fire Department on January 28, 1850.

Because of this, there may be no direct relationship between Albert Kuner and George Baldwin.

Here's a photo of Frederick D. Kohler from FindAGrave:

Here's a photo of Albert Kuner from Wikipedia:

Regulated

I'd guess Kuner probably worked for Baldwin after he took over the company - he was really the only game in town if you needed dies engraved. It's interesting that he signed the Horseman dies; I'm pretty sure that they're the only dies he signed from the 1840s or '50s.

Zoins

@Regulated said:
I'd guess Kuner probably worked for Baldwin after he took over the company - he was really the only game in town if you needed dies engraved. It's interesting that he signed the Horseman dies; I'm pretty sure that they're the only dies he signed from the 1840s or '50s.

It's interesting that he didn't sign any other dies during that period.

Who were the other die engravers at the time. The Kellogg slug is attributed to Ferdinand Gruner. Of note, Kuner's full name has some similarities: Georg Albrecht (Albert) Ferdinand Küner. The "G" in Gruner appears very pronounced on the Kellogg die.

Regulated

Gruner is the only one I am aware of, and I don't think he was around prior to 1855: there's no mention of him in any of the available directories prior to 1856, when he shows up in both Colville's and Harris, Bogardus and Labatt. I'm guessing he was somehow involved with Kuner, as their business addresses are adjacent (167 and 171 Washington).

Regulated

@Zoins said:

Here's a photo of Frederick D. Kohler from FindAGrave:

This cemetery is 15 minutes from my place - I've actually been there before, oblivious to the fact that Kohler's grave was there. I guess I'd better visit him...

Zoins

@Regulated said:

@Zoins said:

Here's a photo of Frederick D. Kohler from FindAGrave:

This cemetery is 15 minutes from my place - I've actually been there before, oblivious to the fact that Kohler's grave was there. I guess I'd better visit him...

I went to the town on one of my very first visits to California. Not sure when I can make it there again, but it would be interesting to visit.

If you go, something to consider would be taking a photo of his headstone and uploading it to that site. Here is an entry for Harry Kohler Edwards with both a profile photo and a headstone photo. He's the great grandson of Frederick D. Kohler:

Harry Kohler Edwards

I just looked up Albert Kuner and his place would be easier for me to visit:

Albert Kuner

Regulated

I might run up there this weekend. I actually think I saw his grave when I was there last year, and obliviously wondered if it was a relative.

coinsarefun

@Regulated said:

>
I just love the heck out of things like this!!!!

Zoins

Thread Revival

While doing some research with @Regulated a while back, I visited Kuner's grave site. It was a fun trip and a different way to enjoy numismatics.

I also added some TrueViews to the OP since PCGS is slabbing these now.

Here's a photo:

coinsarefun

Every time I see this design I think of a California token I have. The obverse design is reminiscent of the
1850 Baldwin. RANCHEROS VISITADORES // GOOD FOR 50¢ IN TRADE Santa Barbara, California stuck by
Los Angelus Rubber Stamp Co.
The Rancheros Visitadores or the "Visiting Ranchers" is a social club In Santa Barbara, Ca.
.
.

CaptHenway

I miss Regulated. Does anybody know if he is all right?

Zoins

@coinsarefun said:
Every time I see this design I think of a California token I have. The obverse design is reminiscent of the
1850 Baldwin. RANCHEROS VISITADORES // GOOD FOR 50¢ IN TRADE Santa Barbara, California stuck by
Los Angelus Rubber Stamp Co.
The Rancheros Visitadores or the "Visiting Ranchers" is a social club In Santa Barbara, Ca.

Interesting. Is this one of the fantasy tokens made by Los Angeles Rubber Stamp Co?

Here's a description of Los Rancheros Vistadores. I'm not sure why they would need a trade token.

https://www.independent.com/2012/07/11/los-rancheros-visitadores/

Los Rancheros Visitadores

Celebrating Horsemanship and Ranching on the South Coast

Los Rancheros Visitadores was the brainchild of a small group of prominent Santa Barbarans who were horse lovers and wished to commemorate the important role horsemanship and ranching had played in the history of the South Coast.

The generally accepted story concerning the founding is that in the spring of 1929, cowboy artist Ed Borein suggested to his friend Elmer Awl that they gather some buddies together for a few days of riding and camping in the Santa Ynez Valley. Borein had spent a good part of his youth as a working cowboy in California and Mexico. Today he is considered one of the finest artists to portray the range life of the American West.
[...]
The idea lay dormant until the spring of 1930. In April, Awl and Harvey McDonald, who worked at Juan y Lolita, organized a short six-mile ride of some 65 men capped by a lunch at Mattei’s Tavern. One of the riders was Thomas Wilson Dibblee, a descendant of the De la Guerra family and owner of Rancho San Julian. Reportedly, it was Dibblee who came up with the name Los Rancheros Visitadores (The Visiting Ranchers) for the new group.

The Rancheros’ first official trek began May 9, 1930, and lasted four days. A group of 90 men rode from Dwight Murphy’s Los Prietos Ranch in the Santa Ynez Valley to Nojoqui Falls. Among the participants were, in addition to those already mentioned, some of the most prominent citizens of the South Coast: county supervisor Sam Stanwood, newspaper publishers Reginald Fernald and Thomas Storke, and philanthropist and yachtsman Max Fleischmann. During the next few years, the organization solidified, and membership grew to include riders from all over the state. In the late 1930s, Walt Disney took part, aboard his horse, Minnie Mouse. Clark Gable rode in 1939. Ronald Reagan would ride in the 1970s.

Los Rancheros Visitadores numbers almost 700 members today and is international in scope. Selected members sit on the board of Los Adobes de los Rancheros, a separate charitable organization. And every spring, the Rancheros mount up for their traditional trek through the Santa Ynez Valley.

One of their first rides:

Here's are two photos of Walt Disney with the crew:

http://disneydispatch.com/content/columns/squeak-of-the-week/2011/11-happy-trails-lead-to-south-american-tales/

https://www.icollector.com/Walt-Disney-the-Rancheros-Visitadores-Photo-Archive_i30472931

Since 2012, they've raised over $1M for the Cancer Foundation of Santa Barbara with 100% of the proceeds help local breast cancer patients.

https://www.edhat.com/news/rancheros-visitadores-raise-over-1-million-for-cancer-center

https://lompocrecord.com/news/local/los-rancheros-visitadores-ride-to-solvang-wearing-pink-to-help/article_66d3b48e-1ed1-51c7-a1f9-2c8f000e80c4.html

https://www.edhat.com/news/rancheros-visitadores-raise-over-1-million-for-cancer-center

coinsarefun

Regarding your question @Zoins it is done by the Los Angeles Rubber Stamp Co.
As far as being a fantasy goes......I posted this a year or so back when I won it. It is
from Benjamin Fauver collection. I do remember reading somewhere they had these
struck for the club. I can’t wait to get it back from grading.

Zoins

@coinsarefun said:
Regarding your question @Zoins it is done by the Los Angeles Rubber Stamp Co. As far as being a fantasy goes......I posted this a year or so back when I won it. It is from Benjamin Fauver collection. I do remember reading somewhere they had these struck for the club. I can’t wait to get it back from grading.

Would be good to know. The research done for the Mobile Jockey Club here was great and perhaps something similar can be done

They don't seem to have a website.

Either way, seems useful to post on their Wikipedia page to get more feedback.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rancheros_visitadores

coinsarefun

I have never been able to locate a website........I think this group preferred to do things
By The Seat of Their Pants
However this is some really good reading here.
http://cemckenna.com/wp-content/themes/turtle/pdf/Constructing-Heritage-LosRancherosVisitadores.pdf

cccoins

Here are the PCGS details of the gold version:

https://pcgs.com/cert/36749075

Zoins

@cccoins said:
Here are the PCGS details of the gold version:

https://pcgs.com/cert/36749075

The large cuds on this are interesting.

It's unfortunate they didn't do the gold earlier.

I wonder if this was done at a later time and possibly by different people.

cccoins

Here is a question for the group. The K-1g variety shows up in both white metal, and white metal gilt:

White metal gilt:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/territorial-gold/-1850-restrike-baldwin-and-co-ten-dollar-white-metal-gilt-ms62-ngc-k-1g-r6/a/1166-6854.s?ic16=ViewItem-BrowseTabs-Auction-Archive-ThisAuction-120115

White metal:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/territorial-gold/-1850-restrike-baldwin-and-co-ten-dollar-white-metal-ms64-ngc-k-1g-r6/a/1166-6856.s?ic16=ViewItem-BrowseTabs-Inventory-BuyNowFromOwner-ThisAuction-120115

Should these really be two different K numbers? It seems to me that they are distinct enough to merit different K and PCGS Numbers, but I a no authority on this.

Zoins

@cccoins said:
Here is a question for the group. The K-1g variety shows up in both white metal, and white metal gilt

Here's the white metal specimen that was in the same submission as the TrueViews above.

'1850' $10 Baldwin Restrike K-1g White Metal - PCGS MS65 POP 0/1/0

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/36749080

coinsarefun

Interesting!

cccoins

@Zoins said:

@cccoins said:
Here is a question for the group. The K-1g variety shows up in both white metal, and white metal gilt

Here's the white metal specimen that was in the same submission as the TrueViews above.

'1850' $10 Baldwin Restrike K-1g White Metal - PCGS MS65 POP 0/1/0

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/36749080

I believe that this one is the same that David McCarthy showed above. The sequence of PCGS cert numbers shown came from Kagin’s Ford territorial pattern sale. I bought them from Russ Augustin at the end of last year. I will post more details tonight.

Zoins

@cccoins said:

@Zoins said:

@cccoins said:
Here is a question for the group. The K-1g variety shows up in both white metal, and white metal gilt

Here's the white metal specimen that was in the same submission as the TrueViews above.

'1850' $10 Baldwin Restrike K-1g White Metal - PCGS MS65 POP 0/1/0

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/36749080

I believe that this one is the same that David McCarthy showed above. The sequence of PCGS cert numbers shown came from Kagin’s Ford territorial pattern sale. I bought them from Russ Augustin at the end of last year. I will post more details tonight.

That does look like the same one based on the obverse toning at 4 o'clock near the rim.

Congrats on picking these up and it's great to know you were able to pick them up from Russell / AU Capital Management. Nice provenance:

• John J. Ford Jr.
• Don Kagin
• Russ Augustin

If this entire set is from Ford, they should be properly attributed.