The One Coin for Each British King Collection – The Toughest Monarchs to Find
BillJones
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I have been working on a “one coin for each British king” collection for about three years. Now that I am within one monarch of completing it, I thought I’d give a heads up to those who might be thinking about something similar. Here is my list of the hardest to find from Edward the Confessor to Elizabeth II.
Harold II – Harold was the last Saxon king and the man William the Conqueror defeated in 1066. Harold ruled for less than ten months so it’s not surprising that his pennies are hard to find.
William II, Henry I, Stephen – Their coins were poorly made from the beginning, and they did not improve while in circulation.
Richard I (1189 – 1199) – an overrated British king for sure, but I’ll explain that in another post. All of Richard’s coins were issued in the name of Henry II. You will have to buy a French coin if you want his name on the piece.
John (1199 – 1216) – All of his British coins were issued in the name of Henry II. If you want a coin that says “John” on it, you need to buy one of the piece he issued while he was Lord of Ireland. There is a piece with his portrait in a triangle that is supposed to be “common.” Dealers have told me that for three years, “Oh I just sold one of those,” but I’ve been able to buy one. I finally bought an Irish “moon face” design half penny to fill that spot.
Henry IV (1399 – 1413) – This one was a surprise. The name was left blank on my list for a couple years before I asked a knowledgeable dealer about it. Henry IV, who had an interesting health history (teaser for later) does not have a lot of surviving coins out there. I was offered in Henry IV penny in what I graded as Fair-2 at $2,400. I was told it was “a bargain,” but not for me. I ended up buying a gold noble for more double that price, but 20 + times the quality.
(Here’s tip. I’ll pay over catalog for a coin, but I won’t pay three or four times the catalog. There are dealers out there who spout, “The catalog is wrong!” for various reasons, mostly in their self interest. When they start asking prices that are multiple times the current catalog prices run, don’t walk away. I’ve seen the same thing with U.S. coins, it’s a scam.)
Mary (1553 – 1558) – Mary’s coins are not easy to find in nice condition, and some of the nice ones have those three and four times catalog price tags on them. I found a decent VF six pence to fill the spot.
Oliver Cromwell (1652 – 1660) – Cromwell portrait coins are tough and expensive.
Went for gold coins where I could, which ups the price. Many of those kings can be had for less money.
I hope this will help you get started, if you are so inclined.
Comments
Of your list, I have only one - Oliver Cromwell, 1656 shilling, NGC vf20. Most of know that it is during his time as head of the commonwealth, that the colonies (primarily Massachusetts) minted coins. This was due to the restriction of minting coins with the British monarch's likeness on them. This is what i've been told, but reading your thread, I see that Ireland and France did this. I'm sure that the collective knowledge here can straighten me out. Thanks
Wow, I posted before proof reading! Sorry, but the gist of my thoughts are there.
BTW, I've now read the other three threads about English monarchs that you posted and have cut and pasted them to keep with my meager collection of "a coin from each monarch". Great information and thanks.
Here is Irish, Lord John, "moon face" half penny.
Thank you for the list and information!
I've been working on the same thing since January 2014. My first one was an Elizabeth I six-pence dated 1602.
I'm still missing the following monarchs:
Elizabeth II
Edward VIII
Oliver Cromwell
Richard III
Edward V
Henry V
Henry IV
Edward II
Stephen
Henry I
William II
William I
In addition, I also have a penny from Aethelred II.
Oh, and I do have one of those King John Irish pennies with the triangle design (Spink-6228). I picked it up via Heritage in 2014.
Steve
Here's my "rarity opinion" concerning the kings you have left:
Elizabeth II - very easy - current - You can buy some of the gold coins for melt.
Edward VIII - Impossible, unless you buy a non portrait from one the British Commonwealth nations - I forget which one. There are a few pattern coins of Edward VIII, but most mortals can't get one of them. Edward VIII is marked "unavailable" on my list.
Oliver Cromwell - Like I said the portait coins are tough. The "Commonwealth" coins are easier, but not usually attractive.
Richard III - Tough - I have a farily unattractive penny which is PCGS certified which marginally better than the pieces I see photographed on the Internet.
Edward V - Impossible so far as I'm concerned. He was held captive in the Tower of London as a child and teenager along with his brother. The Spink book lists a gold coin with a 35,000 pound price tag on it. Not for me, and I imagine that it is almost never available. Scholars debate as to whether he was murdered under orders from Richard III or Henry VII. I think that his bones, along with those of his brother were found under a staircase at the Tower during the reign of Charles II.
Henry V - You will find after doing some looking. I have a half groat with dark, crusty toning, but it is certified. I spotted it in a Heritage auction.
Henry IV - Really hard, as I wrote before. The price of the penny that was offered to me made the gold noble look like a bargain.
Edward II - Really tough. I bought a motley looking but easily identifiable penny for him. His personal history is quite interesting - quite the scandal. I will write about it one day if someone does not beat me to it.
Stephen, Henry I and William II - I have covered them in some detail.
William I - Not hard to do, but it will cost you $800 to $1,000 for a nice looking one.
Edward VIII distributed the Royal Maundy coins in 1936, although they had the portrait of George V. A silver penny from that set would probably be the one I would use if I tried a set of one from each monarch. I think it is interesting that the silver penny tradition continues in today's Maundy sets - and all the way from the Saxon kings.
Otherwise Edward VIII's name can be seen on some colonial coins, as you mentioned:
Pacific Northwest Numismatic Association
Toughest monarchs:
Edward VIII (only a few patterns known)
Edward V (only a few angels are thought to be his, but the sequence of die emissions is a bit challenging and it may be that more or fewer coins should be attributed to this short-lived king)
Matilda (disputed monarch but some consider her to be part of the series)
None of the other kings or queens are particularly difficult. Henry IV and Richard III are not hard to find but expensive and are very hard to find "nice"... they are generally crude and ugly. Henry VI's second reign (if that is of interest to you) is a bit tough. William II is expensive, but pretty common. Coins of Henry I, Stephen, and Henry II's 1st coinage (Tealby) are very crude and well struck attractive coins command a huge premium over price guide.
There are of course some very tough monarchs if you go back to Anglo-Saxon times, but I can see the appeal of starting with William I.
I'm not quite convinced of the veracity of the claims that coins were definitively made for Edward V and not just using dies from the previous reign. During that time it was quite common to keep striking coin until the die was wasted. Sometiems it would seem they didn't want to change things, ie coins being struck in Henry II's name into the reign of John etc, It is fascinating to conjecture that the minters got about the business of minting new coins in mere weeks of a new reign but there is no definitive proof that in fact they did. It is known that some moneyers in Edinburgh held out for Queen Mary from 1567 when she was ousted from the throne until ca. 1570 and that they continued to strike coins in her name years after her son James VI assumed the throne.
The only "reign" shorter was "Queen Jane" who was nominally declared queen with Edward VI died in 1553, she is referred to as the 9 days queen. Some cities and bishoprics declared for her because she was a Protestant vs. Queen Mary being a Catholic. Mary got the upper hand though and Jane lost her life the following year. The only "coins" that exists are modern fantasies ala Richard Lobel of CoinCraft.
As challenging as it is for English coins to get a coin from each monarch, it is much more challenging for some Scottish monarchs - I do have the David I from Carlisle, the Robert I from Berwick and several near unique coins from Queen Mary. But Alexander II has eluded me.
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Bill (and everyone else), Thank you very much for the additional info. I have the Spink Standard Catalogue, and refer to it frequently, so yes, I know some of the coins are exceptionally rare/expensive. I'm just taking the slow and easy approach to building my collection, and just enjoy picking up what I can; so far, I like to think I've done fairly well with it.
I created an Excel spreadsheet that lists all the monarchs, going all the way back through the House of Wessex in the early 6th century, just so I know what might be available. As I said though, I'm certainly under no illusion that I'll be able to afford even half of them.
Regarding Edward VIII, I would like to get one of the coins that was issued under his name in either Fiji, New Guinea or British West Africa. Otherwise, I am trying to limit my collection to portrait coins, at least back to Aethelred II.
SaorAlba, I agree with you about the Scottish coins. I'm also working on them for the last three years also, and so far, I have picked up an Alexander III penny, David II penny, Robert II tuppence, and a Mary bawbee. I don't remember even seeing any other monarch's coins for sale.
Do you know of any book that's available for Scottish coins (similar to Spink's England/UK Catalogue)?
Steve
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The Scottish Coinage, by Ian Halley Stewart published in London by Spink & Sons, 1955. This book is essential in telling the story of Scottish coinage, short on images, but great for research with descriptions of the coinages. Some of the information available in this work is not available in newer works, for example the star and mullet arrangements on the Alexander III pennies. There are better recollections of stories of the Scottish mint in this work than more modern works.
Seaby's Standard Catalogue of British Coins Part 4 - Coins and Tokens of Scotland by Frank Purvey printed in London, 1972 by Robert Stockwell. This is an abbreviated update of the work by Ian Halley Stewart above, but with the notable inclusion of Scottish tokens, essential for identifying these mostly 18th and early 19th century pieces.
Coins of Scotland Ireland and the Islands, Standard Catalogue of British Coins Volume 2 by Peter Seaby and P. Frank Purvey, published by Seaby Publications Ltd in London 1984. The quinessential work with many more images of early Scottish coins, great for identification of Latin legends etc. Varieties are better described in this work than in the 1972 edition.
Coinage in Scotland by J. D. Bateson published by Spink in London 1997 ISBN 0 907605 74 5, This work is strong on research and descriptions of the Scottish coinage, and is particularly valuable in providing information with regards to the coinages of Mary, and her son, James VI. There are many descriptions of hoard finds, with maps inclusive.
Scottish Coins - A History of Small Change in Scotland, by Nicholas Holmes published by NMS Publishing, Edinburgh, 1998 ISBN 1 901663 02 7. This book takes an essentially different approach, with less research on individual coins etc, and more on describing what they were used for, how names of coins evolved and significant research on what circulated and why. Many descriptions of later hoards, counterfeits etc. are available in this work that are not available in other works.
Coincraft's Standard Catalogue of the coins of Scotland, Ireland, Channel Islands & Isle of Man by Richard Lobel, Mark Davidson, Allan Hailstone, Eleni Calligas published by Standard Catalogue Publishers Ltd, London, 1999 ISBN 0 9526228 74. A larger and bit more concise work than was previously available, with many more illustrations of individual coins. I notice that some descriptions of varieties available in other works are not available here, but there are valuable "Collecting Hint"s which describe the availability of particular coins to collectors and what grades can be anticipated to be found. The numbering system is unique, and rather confusing and unfortunately does not yet correspond directly with the now commonly used Seaby reference numbers.
The Dundee Collection of Scottish Coins By Bowers and Ruddy Galleries Inc. 1976. This is an auction catalogue, but a very concise one with an emphasis on a public sale of a collection of Scottish coinage that was initiated by the previous owner in the 1950's. The highlights of this catalogue are the many coins of Queen Mary, with unique varieties, and incredible rarities. This is one of the best auction catalogues which essentially became a reference work because of the research and imagery available. Makes me wish I could have been around then to purchase many of these rarities.
If you can find one ion this side of the planer, go for a George 111 , 1797 Cartwheel pinny or halfpenny...The penny is from memory about 1/4 inch thick
Wow, thank you @SaorAlba.....that is most helpful!!!!!
Steve
I know that you did not find those kings difficult to find, but they were for me. I know that it would be a lot easier if you participate in the British auctions or can buy them from British dealers. I looked at the buyers’ fees, shipping costs, insurance and value added taxes and decided that route was not for me. A couple of collectors I talked to confirmed my suspicions. They said that the cost of importing from abroad made it prohibitive.
That leaves me with the U.S. shows, dealers and auctions. I monitor the Heritage and other U.S. auctions religiously, and those kings are seldom available. It surprises me that dealers like Spink rent tables at the major shows, like Baltimore, and don’t bring anything but old auction catalogs and their guide book for sale. They don’t offer coins at all, and I don’t understand that unless the auctions are far more lucrative than sales via private treaty.
Not to divert, but I agree with the bit about Spink coming to USA with little to offer (Spink at Baltimore is usually SpinkUSA however).
Well, just Love coins, period.
Great post, I have been very interested in British coins for some time. Posts like this one intrigue me. Currently most of my collecting interest has been in the US Coin collecting arena. To learn about British coins what would be a good starting point (these posts are great) for me to gain the knowledge needed to begin.
Thanks,
Bobby
I'm not sure why you would not want to buy from British dealers or auctions. In general I find US dealers and AH's quite poorly knowledgeable about most hammered British coins and frequently misattribute coins. A few exceptions including Harlan Berk, Allen Berman, Alan Davisson, Antony Wilson, Victor England, etc. I have found NGC's attribution of coins in the era I collect (pre-Norman conquest Anglo-Saxon) at times mistaken as well. American grading standards are frequently difficult to apply to hammered coins and I prefer the British style of "gVF, EF, etc"
The majority of my coins have been purchased from British dealers or through British auctions. Of course this means they are bought sight unseen and overseas. If you are spending a large amount you may wish to employ an agent to personally view the coins in auction and bid on your behalf.
Spink no longer does private treaty sales, they ceased publication of their Numismatic Circular a few years ago.
As far as shipping and cost, I don't find it crazy. Typically ~$30 for shipping with insurance, not that different than Heritage. You should not have to pay VAT since you reside outside of the EU. Occasionally you get hit with a 2-3% credit card or Paypal fee if you don't want to wire funds. I've never had a problem with Royal Mail. There should not be any import taxes.
If you like the Spink format check out the Spink coins of Scotland and Ireland. It's from 2015 so fairly up to date
Available from Charles Davis here:
https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/charles_davis/44/product/spink_coins_of_scotland_ireland_and_the_islands_jersey_guernsey_man__lundy_including_anglogallic_coins/619353/Default.aspx
And I'm sure it can be found elsewhere too
I am at the end of the road now, so far as buying for this collection. There is only one king left unless I decide to get serious with the kings before Edward the Confessor. If there are pieces that are misattributed, it’s too late now. I have book, “England’s Striking History,” which I have used to confirm the attributions in addition to what the dealer or the certification services said.
So far as the British grading system is concerned, it confuses me greatly. I’ve had 50+ years of grading experience with American coins, tokens and medals, and during that time I’ve learned about surface grading strike anomalies. Yes, these coins were struck with hammer and tree stump or some other sort of anvil, but American coins have been struck screw presses, drop presses and rocker presses. I think that the “NE” shillings were the only hammer struck American coins. Though all of that I’ve gotten pretty good at sorting out wear and strike issues.
But once again the collection is just about complete, and now I’m spending my time with a historical notebook with one or more pages for each king or queen and his or her coin(s). My student contemporizes in undergraduate said that medieval history is more difficult to learn and keep straight in your mind than the later periods, I’m learning that first hand now.
Establishing relationships with dealers, especially from a long distance is hard, and I’m not going to get involved with the British dealers at this point.
If you are nearly done with your collection, I agree it is not worth it at this point to try to find a British supplier.
But I would say that whoever collectors advised you that you should not deal with British dealers and auctions due to importation difficulties or excessive duties or fees may not have been giving you the best advice.
I agree with Nap that if one is about done then it is not really worth it to find a British supplier.
However, to anyone else just starting down this road, then I also think it is worthwhile not to exclude any dealer or auction house based on geography. Given the relative strength of the USD to GBP and Euro, I'd rather venture afield than stay local because of the less favorable conditions for the Europeans. As for export fees, I think Nap is right since I have never paid any of that. Your mileage may vary, but my experience is with dealing with UK and German dealers and auction houses. I know that dealing with Italian and Spanish suppliers can be much more difficult due to their more stringent antiquities laws.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com