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“Great Rarities.” Separating fact from fiction.

RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited July 19, 2017 4:03PM in U.S. Coin Forum

There seems to be persistent confusion about the origins of some of coin collecting’s great rarities in American Numismatics. This brief exposition is intended to help separate fact from fiction/imagination. All the tall tales, malarkey and bologna has been stripped away,

Most of all, have fun with these. :)

1792 half disme
Produced under authority of the United States and received by the responsible government official, Secretary of State Thomas Jefferson. A regular issue coin, albeit in very small quantities.

1804 Dollar, original
Legally produced under authority of the Director at State Department request. Other versions produced legitimately as exchange pieces in support of the Mint Cabinet, and/or as illegitimate items for individual profit. Circumstances unclear.

1884-1885 Trade dollar proof
Factual circumstances unknown. No documented authority.

1894-S Dime circulation
Legally produced on a standard toggle press under authority of the Superintendent. Properly recorded among production documents.

1895-P Circulation silver dollar
Legally produced under authority of the Director and Superintendent. Properly recorded among production documents and samples sent for special assay and Annual Assay Commission.

1913 Liberty nickel
Factual circumstances unknown. No documented authority. 1913-dated dies were in custody of the Engraver until destroyed in May 1913.

1933 Double eagle
Legally produced under authority of the Director and Superintendent. Properly recorded among production documents and samples sent for special assay and Annual Assay Commission.

1964-D Peace dollar
Trial pieces legally produced on dual toggle press under authority of the Director and Superintendent. Not counted or accepted by Coiner as a legal tender. All tracking by weight, only. Destruction ordered by the Director, but Assistant Coiner failed to stipulate metal loss during melting.

1970 Peace dollar (0.800 fine)
Trial/allow experimental pieces legally produced under authority of the Director. Counted and destroyed by count; confirmed by weight of planchets and coins.

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    DRUNNERDRUNNER Posts: 3,800 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Well done. Appreciate the insight and facts . . . . .

    Drunner

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    RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just putting the pieces in one convenient spot, that's all. ;)

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    StoogeStooge Posts: 4,646 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You forgot the 1974-P/D Zinc Lincolns.


    Later, Paul.
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    CoinosaurusCoinosaurus Posts: 9,614 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The 1804 dollar was not struck in the year so dated, contrary to the Mint Act. Was the Mint still under the State Dept. in the 1830s? Even if it was, one could argue that the Secretary of State ordered an illegal act. Not that anyone at that level of the government would ever try to skate around the law.......

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    TommyTypeTommyType Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Seems you are missing some of the factual information for the 1933 DE when you did include similar information for some of the later Peace Dollar issues, including the destruction, and "official status" of the government entities, (whether you agree, or not).

    Maybe the intent is to try to legitimize them by not mentioning the other arguments and actions?

    (Not taking sides....Just think it is oddly incomplete).

    Easily distracted Type Collector
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    AngryTurtleAngryTurtle Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭

    Any facts known on the 1964 Morgan?

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    cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,061 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 19, 2017 8:24PM

    @RogerB said:
    1970 Peace dollar (0.800 fine)
    Trial/allow experimental pieces legally produced under authority of the Director. Counted and destroyed by count; confirmed by weight of planchets and coins.

    Can you share documentation/citation for this particular issue? It will help with a personal numismatic research project.

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    tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,147 ✭✭✭✭✭

    1884-1885 Trade dollar proof
    Factual circumstances unknown. No documented authority.

    I don't think this is accurate. I believe the 1884 striking were fully authorized and produced under normal circumstances... and then most melted

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for the information Roger. Nice to see it summarized with certifiable information. True, one never can be sure that more information may surface. That is fine, we can modify as certifiable facts become known. Cheers, RickO

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    messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,687 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RogerB said:
    There seems to be persistent confusion about the origins of some of coin collecting’s great rarities in American Numismatics. This brief exposition is intended to help separate fact from fiction/imagination. All the tall tales, malarkey and bologna has been stripped away,

    Most of all, have fun with these. :)

    1895-P Circulation silver dollar
    Legally produced under authority of the Director and Superintendent. Properly recorded among production documents and samples sent for special assay and Annual Assay Commission.

    Die destruction records show only proof dollar dies dated 1895 being destroyed. Circulation dollars made in 1895 are likely dated 1894. John Dannreuther wrote up an article for the SSDC about this. I'll forward it to you.

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    RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 20, 2017 11:03AM

    Coinosaurus:
    “The 1804 dollar was not struck in the year so dated, contrary to the Mint Act. Was the Mint still under the State Dept. in the 1830s? Even if it was, one could argue that the Secretary of State ordered an illegal act. Not that anyone at that level of the government would ever try to skate around the law....”

    A: The Mint Director reported to the Secretary of the Treasury. However, other departments, especially State and Navy often requested medals and coin sets for their own purposes. Secretary of Treasury commonly allowed all such requests, with the requesting party paying the Mint for its work.

    TommyType:
    “Seems you are missing some of the factual information for the 1933 DE when you did include similar information for some of the later Peace Dollar issues, including the destruction, and "official status" of the government entities, (whether you agree, or not). Maybe the intent is to try to legitimize them by not mentioning the other arguments and actions?”

    A: No, there is simply nothing more to say. The coins were regular issue U.S. double eagles and completely unremarkable. Subsequent events are immaterial. 1933 DE and 1964-D dollars were made under totally different circumstances and cannot be compared on that basis.

    tradedollarnut:
    “I don't think this is accurate. I believe the 1884 striking were fully authorized and produced under normal circumstances... and then most melted.”

    A: To the best of my knowledge, no documents exist that authorized Trade dollars in 1884 or 1885. The US Mint and Treasurer’s account books, along with the lists of proof coins made and journals of production show no Trade dollars of any description for these years. If 1884 documents showing Trade dollars were officially produced exist, please present them.

    messydesk:
    “Die destruction records show only proof dollar dies dated 1895 being destroyed. Circulation dollars made in 1895 are likely dated 1894. John Dannreuther wrote up an article for the SSDC about this. I'll forward it to you.”

    A: While correct about the die destruction list, all records clearly show 12,000 1895 dollars struck just before the end of June 1895. (1894 dies were destroyed in January 1895 under normal procedures.) There is no contradictory documentation. Both circulation and proof dollars also show up in the Annual Assay Commission minutes. Factual information including images of the documents and extracts was published in Coin World and elsewhere. If the SSDC article states they were dated “1894” then the article is in error.

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    tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,147 ✭✭✭✭✭

    From Heritage:
    https://coins.ha.com/itm/proof-trade-dollars/1884-t-1-pr63-pcgs/a/1251-5735.s

    Research done in 1988 by the late Carl W. A. Carlson, on the other hand, proves that the 1884 Trade dollar was struck officially and under the supervision of Mint officials.

    "The "Die Record Book" kept by A. W. Straub, foreman of the Die Makers' Room, clearly records receipt from the Engraving Department of one obverse and one reverse die for the proof 1884 Trade dollar on January 3 of that year. Straub supervised the transfer of these dies from the Die Makers' Room to the Coining Department when Superintendent Colonel A. Loudon Snowden ordered proof production to begin. This most likely happened within the first week of January. The first coins produced with these dies were copper trial pieces (Judd-1732, Pollock-1943), a clear indication that the Mint had plans for large scale production. Today, three or four copper die trial pieces are extant, two of which have been silver plated. According to the Fourteenth Annual Report of the Director of the Mint, page 126, there were 264 proof Trade dollars struck in 1884. These coins were delivered to the cashier on January 19. Shortly thereafter, the Treasury Department sent orders to the Mint forbidding production of proof Trade dollars for sale to collectors"

    So - similar to the 1933$20, there existed a window in which the 1884 trade dollars not only might have been legitimately produced, but in fact, were legitimately produced.

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    dengadenga Posts: 903 ✭✭✭

    @tradedollarnut said:
    From Heritage:
    https://coins.ha.com/itm/proof-trade-dollars/1884-t-1-pr63-pcgs/a/1251-5735.s

    Research done in 1988 by the late Carl W. A. Carlson, on the other hand, proves that the 1884 Trade dollar was struck officially and under the supervision of Mint officials.

    "The "Die Record Book" kept by A. W. Straub, foreman of the Die Makers' Room, clearly records receipt from the Engraving Department of one obverse and one reverse die for the proof 1884 Trade dollar on January 3 of that year. Straub supervised the transfer of these dies from the Die Makers' Room to the Coining Department when Superintendent Colonel A. Loudon Snowden ordered proof production to begin. This most likely happened within the first week of January. The first coins produced with these dies were copper trial pieces (Judd-1732, Pollock-1943), a clear indication that the Mint had plans for large scale production. Today, three or four copper die trial pieces are extant, two of which have been silver plated. According to the Fourteenth Annual Report of the Director of the Mint, page 126, there were 264 proof Trade dollars struck in 1884. These coins were delivered to the cashier on January 19. Shortly thereafter, the Treasury Department sent orders to the Mint forbidding production of proof Trade dollars for sale to collectors"

    So - similar to the 1933$20, there existed a window in which the 1884 trade dollars not only might have been legitimately produced, but in fact, were legitimately produced.

    The 264 pieces reported for 1884 were of the fiscal year, not calendar.
    There were no Trade dollars officially delivered in 1884. The 264 pieces in
    question were struck and delivered during the last six months of 1883,
    which was the first half of the 1884 fiscal year.

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    tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,147 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Be as that may, an 1884 trade dollar proof die was legitimately produced and sent to the Coining Department where it undoubtedly produced specimens

    The quality of the 1884s vs the 1885s shows they were legitimate Mint productions. 1885 was not.

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    dengadenga Posts: 903 ✭✭✭

    @tradedollarnut said:
    Be as that may, an 1884 trade dollar proof die was legitimately produced and sent to the Coining Department where it undoubtedly produced specimens

    The quality of the 1884s vs the 1885s shows they were legitimate Mint productions. 1885 was not.

    That 1884 and 1885 Trade dollars were struck is well known. There were no official
    deliveries, as required by law, making these two dates clandestine, probably under
    the orders of Philadelphia Mint Superintendent A. Loudon Snowden.

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    RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 20, 2017 1:40PM

    Collectors are often confused by fiscal year vs calendar year. At times usage is ambiguous, and this is especially confusing in relation to the Mint's annual reports - which are mixtures of fiscal and calendar year data.

    The facts simply are that no Trade dollars were recorded in production documents or ledgers or reports to the Treasurer of Mint Director. From that perspective, they most closely align with 1913 Liberty nickels.

    PS: Carlson's work was quite good, but it is nearly 30 years old and we have better, more comprehensive resources now. Hence, the need for new and continuing research.

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    CoinosaurusCoinosaurus Posts: 9,614 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Further confusing the fact is that the fiscal year used to be June 30 and (IIRC) is now Sept. 30.

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    gsa1fangsa1fan Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭

    Dealer in Meridian, Miss. show about 15 years ago showed me circulated 1895 silver dollar he swore it was real. I was to wary of $1500 price tag. It looked felt good ~Now I read this and wonder?

    Avid collector of GSA's.
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    ShortgapbobShortgapbob Posts: 2,332 ✭✭✭

    I saw an Circ Proof 1895 Morgan in an old green label PCGS holder last year that was certified as VF-25 instead of PR-25.

    The coin was obviously a Proof and the label a matter of semantics, but cool nonetheless.

    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." -- Aristotle

    For a large selection of U.S. Coins & Currency, visit The Reeded Edge's online webstore at the link below.

    The Reeded Edge
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    RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Several 1895-P circulation dollars have been reported over the years, but none authenticated. All turned out to be impaired proofs. Several difficulties arise for 1895-P circulation strike coins - first, it appeals from the die list that they were made using one or more pairs of polished proof dies; second, 12,000 pieces is a small press run and polish on the dies might have lasted for a significant percentage of the output; third, medal press output differed from toggle press products, but these can be subtle -- that is: there is always a range of output detail and with no clear circulation strikes available we have no point of comparison.

    Also, when silver dollars were moved from multiple vaults in the old mint to the new Philadelphia mint, they were consolidated into one large vault containing multiple cages. Available documents include extensive lists of coins moved from place to place, but nothing that refers to coin dates. The method of handling the bags shows no attempt to keep original vault contents together -- it was just "move the stuff to the new mint building." The implication is that the 12 bags of 1895 dollars were casually mixed with other bags which would make tracking by vault and cage location impossible.

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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,547 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think the OP list could be expanded to include Class Two and Class Three 1804 Dollars.

    How about 1866 No Motto Proof quarter, half, dollars?

    How about some of the 1873 branch mint rarities salvaged from the Assay coins?

    How about the 1870-S rarities?

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,547 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Stooge said:
    You forgot the 1974-P/D Zinc Lincolns.

    I think you meant aluminum.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    StoogeStooge Posts: 4,646 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:

    @Stooge said:
    You forgot the 1974-P/D Zinc Lincolns.

    I think you meant aluminum.

    Yes, that is what I meant. Had a brain fart.


    Later, Paul.
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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,863 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 21, 2017 1:55PM

    1974-D aluminum Lincoln cent

    According to Michael Paul Lantz, die setter and press operator for the Denver Mint, these were legally produced by die setter Ernie Martinez and sent to Harry Bobay, General Foreman, who delivered them to the Coining Division office where they were shipped to Mint headquarters in Washington D.C. The only known surviving specimen was found in the estate of Harry Edmond Lawrence, Deputy Superintendent of the Denver Mint when they were struck.

    Ref: https://www.pcgs.com/news/pcgs-certifies-first-confirmed-1974d-aluminum-cent

    2000-W 22-karat gold Sacagawea dollar

    Struck without authority by the United States Mint in Philadelphia. The W mintmark was used because the plan was to strike these at West Point in the future. The Mint planned to strike 1 and 5 dollar denomination collector coins in gold, but the plans were cancelled after public outcry over the Mint's lack of authority to strike these coins. The 12 surviving coins were sent to the Fort Knox Gold Bullion Depository under direction of Mint Director Henrietta Holsman Fore.

    Ref: http://www.smalldollars.com/dollar/page20b.html

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    RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wanted to keep the list to the basics. Others might want to add Cheerios dollars or the 1977 2-cent piece, etc...but that get away from the idea of concentrating on the most commonly discussed items.

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    PocketArtPocketArt Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for your effort, time, and accuracy you put into research Roger!

    I especially like the history behind the 1792 Half Disme. This is a coin that is at the top of my "wish list." I don't know if there's any other U.S. coin that has such a storied, and important provenience as this one: Thomas Jefferson carried $75 of his own silver to be processed into the Half Disme at the Philadelphia mint, returned to pick up 1,500 Half Disme's, and distributed them himself?

    What U.S. coin could match the history of that????

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    oldgoldloveroldgoldlover Posts: 429 ✭✭✭

    Thanks and very well done.

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    ECHOESECHOES Posts: 2,974 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @oldgoldlover said:
    Thanks and very well done.

    +1
    Thanks for your work...

    ~HABE FIDUCIAM IN DOMINO III V VI / III XVI~
    POST NUBILA PHOEBUS / AFTER CLOUDS, SUN
    Love for Music / Collector of Dreck
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    RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    RE: 1792. See 1792: Birth of a Nation's Coinage (softcover) written by Pete Smith, Joel J. Orosz, and Len Augsburger. Available from Heritage Auctions. This is likely to be the 2017 Book-of-the-Year.

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    RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    One of the authors posts here. Maybe he will chime in.

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    goldengolden Posts: 9,052 ✭✭✭✭✭

    When I first saw this portrait of Martha Washington, I said " That is the image on the 1792 Half Disme".

    001.jpg 337.6K
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    Peace_dollar88Peace_dollar88 Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wow! Great research! Thanks for the insight as always!

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    RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sometimes it helps to get down to only the basics.

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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,547 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "Let's go to Leuchenbach, Texas; Willie and Waylon and the Boys1'

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,863 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2017 12:51AM

    Here's Pogue's half disme for comparison. Is there a profile portrait of Martha that can be used to better compare with the coin (similar to the Nolan Ryan dollar which is generally accepted).

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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,547 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "It's alive! IT'S ALIVE!!!"

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,863 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 23, 2017 8:19AM

    @afford said:

    @Zoins said:
    Here's Pogue's half disme for comparison. Is there a profile portrait of Martha that can be used to better compare with the coin (similar to the Nolan Ryan dollar which is generally accepted).

    The profiles that do exist are when she is a completely different age and therefore the profile is much harder to match.
    i wish someone could take the two portraits and use computerized imagery to make it become a profile but until that can be done I have taken each facial feature i.e. eyes, nose, mouth, chin, neck and ears etc and studied the features closely and matched them to the coin's profile successfully. i have no agenda and can easily make the match. But for some odd reason others can't seem to use similar skill sets to do it, and that troubles me. I think it is an obvious match in facial features and to the mix the fact that it makes perfect sense it becomes a no brainer. Martha Washington had a very particular look, has very odd facial features that is shared with he coin when compared side by side. How can anyone not clearly see this is beyond me.
    The her forehead and hairline, her eye brows, her eye lids and shape of her eyes, he nose, the lips, the space between her nose and lips, her chin, her neck, her ear and lobes.....its all there, you just need the right portrait to compare the coin to.
    And lets not forget the fact that every numismatist and catalog stated that this depicted Martha Washington all through the 1800's and into the 1900's until all of a sudden someone recently said it wasn't her. And all of a sudden a controversy developed were a few individuals jumped on the band wagon writing that it was all a misnomer, the h10c was not of Martha but either some unknown model or no one in particular. I say b.s. to that, it is rather apparent and it makes a whole lot of sense. I don't care if certain individuals state explicitly that Martha was too shy to pose or allow her likeness to be used. One last point, imho Martha was not a pretty woman later on in her life, and the h10c model is similarly not a likeness of a pretty woman either, there I said it....let lightning strike me;)

    When did the half disme portrait being Martha Washington go from being fact to being fiction? Who started it?

    I can see some resemblance in the facial features but the lady on the coin looks much more frightful than the stately portraits of Martha I've seen. Also, from all the portraits I've seen, I don't think Martha would have allowed her hair to be presented in such a disheveled state.

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    dengadenga Posts: 903 ✭✭✭

    It may be of interest that Benson J. Lossing, in his 1871 book The Home of
    Washington
    , has two good profile views of the First Lady. One is by James
    Sharpless and executed in 1796. The other is a shadow likeness drawn by
    Eleanor Parke Custis Lewis. In both cases she is wearing a cap but the
    shadow view seems to show more of her hair. I do not know if these have
    been published elsewhere.

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    goldengolden Posts: 9,052 ✭✭✭✭✭

    In the 1772 Charles Wilson Peale portrait notice the spider-like necklace that she is wearing. On the Half Disme notice her hair that comes around on her right onto her neck. It also has a spider-like look.

    Especially look at the hair in the portrait and on the coin. They look very,very similar.

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