A newp: Anglo-Saxon penny

EVillageProwler

Picked this up recently as an upgrade to one that I used as a trade-in:

ANGLO-SAXON, Kings of Wessex. Æthelwulf. 839-858. AR Penny (20mm, 1.25 g, 12h). Canterbury mint. Manna, moneyer. Struck 844-849. + EÐEIVVLE RE+ (second L retrograde), diademed bust right / + MΛNNΛ IIOHETΛ, cross-crosslet. Naismith C115.3l (this coin); SCBI 2 (Glasgow), 543; BMA 427; North 610; SCBC 1047. Good VF, toned. Very rare.

Ex Dr. Andrew Wayne Collection; J. Hall Collection (Dix, Noonan, Webb 71, 20 September 2006), lot 35; Lawrence R. Stack Collection (Sotheby’s, 22 April 1999), lot 395; F. Knobloch Collection (Coin Galleries, 12 November 1986), lot 992; V. J. E. Ryan Collection (Part II, Glendining’s, 22 January 1952), lot 698.

This is my trade-in piece, that I did not get from the same dealer:

ANGLO-SAXON, Kings of Wessex. Aethelwulf. 839-858. AR Penny (20mm, 1.33 g, 6h). Phase II (circa 845-848). Canterbury mint; Manna, moneyer. +EDELVVLF REX, diademed bust right / +M.A.HN.A. MONET.A., cross-crosslet. SCBI 2 (Hunterian & Coats), 543 var. (legends); BMC 28 var. (legends); North 610; SCBC 1047. VF, toned.

Ex Marian A. Sinton Collection (Classical Numismatic Group 53, 15 March 2000), lot 2237.

I think everyone will agree that the new piece is obviously of higher quality than the one I used as a trade-in. Unfortunately, I struggled to figure out how much to price my own coin as part of this deal. I know how much the seller paid for the ex-Wayne coin, but logic dictates that that is irrelevant to how much the seller should ask for his coin. In the end, I lost money on my ex-Stinton coin as part of the trade-in but did not pay too much net for the deal that I feel horrible. Still, I think I did not negotiate as well as I maybe should have. I hope I'll feel better once I receive my new coin.

EVP

291fifth

Anything English from the 800s in that condition is exceptional. Nice coin!

EVillageProwler

@291fifth said:
Anything English from the 800s in that condition is exceptional. Nice coin!

Thanks. I'm waiting impatiently for updates to my USPS tracker, but it seems registered mail isn't updated regularly.

And I re-did the numbers again and I now think I negotiated not too poorly.

EVP

bronzemat

Beautiful coins!

BillJones

I think that your new coin is a significant improvement over the one you had. The thing about trades with dealers is that it is almost always your wholesale price against his retail price. That’s the way it really has to work, and you have to accept that as a collector.

As a dealer, you buy a nice coin with the expectation that you are going to make X dollars on it as a gross margin to cover your overhead costs and make an overall return from your business. Dealers have to earn a salary to stay in business just you have to earn a salary from your job or profession. The dealer had to work to sell the coin to you as part of the trade, and then he was to work again to sell the coin that you have traded to him.

My last trade was uneven. I traded an 1839-D quarter eagle in PCGS AU-50 and a lot of cash for an 1839-D quarter eagle in PCGS MS-60. I didn’t get as much in trade for the AU-50 as I paid for it, but as a collector I have enjoyed the MS-60 coin very much, far more than I ever enjoyed the AU-50 piece, which was a little “squirrelly.”

Buying coins is a “consumption act” as one of my old economics professors termed purchases that are for pleasure and not investment. Unlike most hobbies you might be able to sell your purchases for the same or more money than you paid. That makes numismatics a better deal than most hobbies in my opinion.

worldcoinguy

Nice upgrade EVP. I think BillJones' comments on margins are spot on, so I wouldn't bother stewing on it.

EVillageProwler

@worldcoinguy said:
Nice upgrade EVP. I think BillJones' comments on margins are spot on, so I wouldn't bother stewing on it.

Thanks WCG and @BillJones for the comments. I must admit that I had a dual purpose for "stewing" on the trade issue. First, I actually was feeling a bit bad that I did a bad job of negotiating ... especially since I know most of the numbers going into the negotiations. Second, I want to highlight for the readership an important aspect of coin collecting: the business side, since the overwhelming majority of us have real-world limitations on our finances.

I haven't received the new coin yet -- drat that slow USPS!!! -- but have some additional (or final?) comments to make:

• grading is an opinion, and I wholly agree that my trade-in coin is a VF while the upgrade coin is a very conservative GVF and frankly to me has a value grade of a "near EF"; thus, I actually value the upgrade coin as higher than the seller list
• my trade-in cost is lower than my purchase price, but given the above I do not bemoan the matter one iota
• I worked out the numbers, and assuming the seller can re-sell my trade-in VF coin at near the trade-in price, then the dealer will still make a whopping profit in terms of profit margin (~ 50%; of course, this doesn't include the dealership's overhead costs which is substantial if you can figure out who they are -- not difficult, really!)
• I am very close to some dealers, and I have no problem whatsoever with their making a living based on their effort and expertise
• I fully expect that I will absolutely love the new coin, which is in full agreement with Bill's response and is probably the most important matter to us pure collectors (price is important too, but usually is less important than loving the coin)

@bronzemat said:

Beautiful coins!

Thanks!

amwldcoin

While I don't have much experience grading Midevil coins. If you consider your trade a VF then surely your new coin is XF!

BS

A very nice addition.

Nap

A lovely upgrade, and complements other nice portrait pennies in your collection.

Nice provenance too, I'll try to look it up in my copies of Stack and Ryan catalogs once I have them unpacked, and I'll share the descriptions in them.