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Your predication on this CAC submission.....unique situation.

ProofmorganProofmorgan Posts: 715 ✭✭✭✭✭

I'm very familiar with CAC and what they look for, but I have a unique situation:

I upgraded an OGH Commem that was green CAC by one full point using reconsideration. This means the cert # stays the same. So the coin is going to CAC as a new submission, but the # is in their system as a 66 vs the current 67. The coin is very deserving of the 67 and is original and colorful (I'm typically don't upgrade OGH pieces but this one was undergraded IMO. I assume most like this are straight regrades so this does not become an issue.

Some thoughts:

Does CAC automatically screen out duplicate certs in their system when a coin comes in as a new submission , but not stickered? Compared to a matching cert that comes in not stickered, but is a re-sticker service level. How much thought is really put into the original screening process? Example: New submission comes in without a sticker, cert is checked, it's in the system = automatic reject/send back.

I left a note saying it was an upgrade to mitigate some of this, but did I screw myself by doing so? Will they automatically not give it a green sticker assuming the green CAC 66 was correct and the 67 was overgraded or will they actually take a look at it?

What do you think?

Collector of Original Early Gold with beginnings in Proof Morgan collecting.

Comments

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,061 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2017 8:40AM

    No. CAC will give it a fresh look. I had a coin fail and resubmitted 2-3 weeks later and it received a green sticker on the second attempt. CAC will not let one unfavorable submission event keep a coin from stickering in the future.

  • Peace_dollar88Peace_dollar88 Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very interesting? I have never heard of anyone doing this before? My first thought would be that they would look at it and say that the green 66 CAC was on. In this case it would be safe to assume that they wouldn't sticker it? I have heard of people crack and resubmit and achieve a higher grade and at which point they resubmit to CAC and have been successful in getting a green bean at a higher grade. If it was a gold sticker it would be safe to assume that it would be a no brainer green been at the next grade. I wonder if they will be biased with the upgrade knowing they already green beaned the lower grade. At any rate I would love to see pictures of the said coin! I would also be very interested in finding out what happens. Keep us updated!!

  • AMRCAMRC Posts: 4,266 ✭✭✭✭✭

    They will look at it, but hard to imagine it would Green Bean if it was not a Gold Bean when it was a 66.

    MLAeBayNumismatics: "The greatest hobby in the world!"
  • KoveKove Posts: 2,025 ✭✭✭✭

    I've only used reconsideration once, avoiding it mostly because the certification number remains the same and clearly shows the history of the coin.

    I upgraded an MS 66 CAC to an MS 67 via reconsideration. It was too big of a coin for me to crack out, and I didn't want to lose the rattler holder if it didn't upgrade, so I went reconsideration and it kept the same number. As I figured, CAC wouldn't sticker the coin as a 67. When I asked, they said they thought the coin was a 67C.

    They did actually look at the coin, they didn't automatically reject it with the same serial number.

    As an aside, in a slightly falling market, the coin was worth a little more as a 66 CAC in a rattler than a 67 non CAC in a new holder.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,061 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @AMRC said:
    They will look at it, but hard to imagine it would Green Bean if it was not a Gold Bean when it was a 66.

    It has happened. CAC is inconsistent with its application of the gold sticker IMHO.

  • ProofmorganProofmorgan Posts: 715 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2017 8:55AM

    I've seen weaker 67s with a sticker.

    Collector of Original Early Gold with beginnings in Proof Morgan collecting.
  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,723 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would expect that they would look at it as a new submission. The folks at CAC are merely human and any decision they make has the typical wobble nature of any decision another human makes.

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • logger7logger7 Posts: 8,068 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2017 8:31AM

    I'm sure it is no sweat for them to reconsider and sticker if they believe it deserves it. They have an easier job than the grading services; the grading services have done the hard part, and they have some of the sharpest graders out there. You or I could move mountains if we had talented teams to work with. But I have to say that the sticker over-focus sounds a little fanatical to some of the dealers I have talked with who run coin shops.

  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @logger7 said:
    ... real fanaticism to some of the dealers I have talked with who run coin shops, saying things I can't type here.

    As many as run down slabs?. What percentage of their sales (apart from bullion) are raw vs TPG. Are they moving 10% of their inventory every month?

    Local coin shop owner "Dave", who sets up at Parsippany, is my go-to-guy for Jewel-Luster every six months or so when my gallon jug runs dry. More than once he has tried to convince me that PCGS will not grade dipped coins because the are "cleaned". Told him I had pretty good luck with it. ;)

    If you can't figure out a way to make more money from your customers filling CAC (or TPG) orders on customer approval terms from another dealer on ANY coins.......? Paying $11 for Morgans?

    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • logger7logger7 Posts: 8,068 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 24, 2017 8:29AM

    The two shops I referenced are significant one is doing more business than any other in CT. Such is the resistance to cac, not so much as to certification. They see it as a marketing gimmick or as a way for them to cherry pick upgrades and the best. Too much time in their own shops, not the major players as you see at the national shows. CAC is another tool for major dealers, less for the lower tier ones. One of them hated ebay, but now it is their main sales method. But stickering re-consideration? I fail to see the point except with $10k and above.

  • ProofmorganProofmorgan Posts: 715 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Auction pricing shows $1k price difference between sticker and no sticker on average in 67. The coin doubled in value from 66 CAC to 67 no sticker alone. It would essentially triple with the sticker. So that is CAC on certain issues and in certain cases. I've also sold many OGH Green CAC coins trying to be a purest, just to see them 1-2 grades higher with a sticker.....never again. Especially with the huge jumps at certain levels.

    Collector of Original Early Gold with beginnings in Proof Morgan collecting.
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,827 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I make no judgements, nor am I willing to preach , when it comes to predications.

  • DollarAfterDollarDollarAfterDollar Posts: 3,214 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Because CAC is so very tight with gold stickers it may well be a coin that warrants a green regardless of the grade assigned. That said, nothing is absolute. The coin in a new slab creates a whole new set of dynamics. Clean, scratch free plastic, different time frame, differences in grading that series from the days of OGH to today, etc.

    Gotta try.

    If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
  • spacehaydukespacehayduke Posts: 5,468 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There have been quite a few examples of coins where their grades went up, green bean for the lower grade, green bean for the higher grade, simply because they would buy the coin at the grade on the holder. So why not? If they like it as a 67, they will bean it.

    Best, SH


    Successful transactions with-Boosibri,lkeigwin,TomB,Broadstruck,coinsarefun,Type2,jom,ProfLiz, UltraHighRelief,Barndog,EXOJUNKIE,ldhair,fivecents,paesan,Crusty...
  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,729 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've had coins not sticker at AU50 that stickered after an upgrade to AU53, coins that stickered on the 3rd try, coins that stickered after "conservation", coins that were stickered that didn't sticker when resubmitted at the same grade with a different cert #..........

    I kinda sorta think they look at a coin and either see one they like or see a coin with issues. If it's good, then they look to see if the assigned grade is reasonable. If they liked your coin before, there's a reasonable chance they'll like it this time too.

  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 18, 2017 5:16PM

    I had this exact scenario twice. Both times they did not get the sticker again. Is it impossible, no, but unlikely.

    After reconsideration, it can be advantageous to do a regrade. For instance:

    -When I see an old cert number on a new slab, I know it was upgraded and something tells me to not buy it.

    -When you send to CAC, they do not know it was upgraded with the new certificate number you got when regraded. (Those who say John remembers every coin he ever saw are repeating total folklore as he once did not remember a coin he looked at 1 hour before he called me back.)

    Now for those who say, why didn't you just do a regrade to begin with? Well, if a coin is really nice in an old holder, my experience is that graders are more apt to say, "close enough" to the next grade and give it to you.

    Finally, it could also be that it's Friday and he has a hot date later that night! (Virtually eliminating all my calculations and speculations.)

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would think that they can reconsider a coin just as the TPG has done... unless there is a personal ego factor involved, I believe they will look at it as a fresh coin and evaluate it accordingly. There is always the human factor involved here - it is an opinion after all, not science. Cheers, RickO

  • Cougar1978Cougar1978 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 19, 2017 12:17PM

    If they believe a coin is solid quality as a 66 I think all bets are off if it's now in a 67 holder. Now it wb evaluated by 67 standards.

    So Cali Area - Coins & Currency
  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    LOL! CAC is no different than PCGS! They are not Gods and opinions do change!

  • KindaNewishKindaNewish Posts: 827 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Wabbit2313 said:

    Finally, it could also be that it's Friday and he has a hot date later that night! (Virtually eliminating all my calculations and speculations.)

    You are talking about coin graders here. I find this scenario highly improbable.

  • @cameonut2011 said:
    No. CAC will give it a fresh look. I had a coin fail and resubmitted 2-3 weeks later and it received a green sticker on the second attempt. CAC will not let one unfavorable submission event keep a coin from stickering in the future.

    Agreed here. I have had many upgraded coins sticker which I upgraded via reconsideration. CAC gives each coin a fresh look.

  • A green CAC sticker means that it is (roughly) in the top 10% of what CAC has seen of that coin. Which technically should mean that a coin with a green sticker, would have a shot at upgrading. This is why I am sometimes confused between green and gold stickers,

  • UncleJoeUncleJoe Posts: 2,520 ✭✭✭

    Here is how I understand this:

    Coin graded 40

    If coin by CAC standards is:

    less than 40, 41 or 42: No bean
    43, 44, 45, 46 or 47: Green bean
    48 or more: Gold bean

    So a coin can be a low end next grade and only get a green bean. If the coin is the next grade and would get a green bean at the next grade then it gets a gold bean. Please correct me if this is not correct.

    Joe.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,061 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @UncleJoe said:
    Coin graded 40

    If coin by CAC standards is:

    less than 40, 41 or 42: No bean
    43, 44, 45, 46 or 47: Green bean
    48 or more: Gold bean

    .????

    What do 41-44 and 46-48 look like?

  • UncleJoeUncleJoe Posts: 2,520 ✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @UncleJoe said:
    Coin graded 40

    If coin by CAC standards is:

    less than 40, 41 or 42: No bean
    43, 44, 45, 46 or 47: Green bean
    48 or more: Gold bean

    .????

    What do 41-44 and 46-48 look like?

    Not sure if you are being serious but if you looked at 100 coins graded 40 I am sure that you could rank them from those closer to 40 than those closer to 45. The point being that those coins closer to 45 would get the bean and not those closer to 40.

    Joe.

  • jonrunsjonruns Posts: 1,196 ✭✭✭✭✭

    OP -- what was the end result?

  • joebb21joebb21 Posts: 4,733 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jonruns said:
    OP -- what was the end result

    if the cert is the same as the above picture then no bean

    may the fonz be with you...always...
  • DMWJRDMWJR Posts: 5,975 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That is a nice coin. I like it!

    Doug
  • ProofmorganProofmorgan Posts: 715 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It did not bean. I attribute it to the cert being the same. I would recommend an additional regrade if in this scenario on a valuable piece. In my case I did the reconsideration to conserve the OGH if it wasn't a full point upgrade.

    Collector of Original Early Gold with beginnings in Proof Morgan collecting.
  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,287 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I know, from personal experience, that EVEN IF it is the same cert, CAC will still look at it and see if maybe they missed something and it should bean.

    So, there seems to be something that they/JA don't like at the level it is....doesn't mean it is a bad coin. Doesn't even mean they see a problem or a lower grade. May just mean they see it in the lower bit of the grade it is.

    What you could have, and should have, done is to ask for notes on the coin or to talk to JA on it, before it was shipped back.

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,061 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2017 10:52PM

    If you have a collector submission account so you're not charged if the piece fails, submit it a couple more times to see if it ultimately stickers. I have had a reject sticker upon resubmission.

  • specialistspecialist Posts: 956 ✭✭✭✭✭

    the first thing cac does when the coins come in-check to see if the cert has been there before. JA will still look at it, do not count on any bean. the guy is that sharp any way.

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