@CrissCriss said:
Did not include the $150K price on the Clemente RC. I thought it was important to analyze the data after most of the crazy prices had posted in early to mid 16.
I've got data on 10-12 other big cards that's mostly the same. If I get time later I'll post it.
Still waiting for your data on the 1990 Topps NNOF Frank Thomas. Go ahead Crisser, just fill in the blanks I provided:
RookieWax--I get your point on the Thomas ( and happy about it since I have one), but his observations here overall are not off base. I have been strictly a collector since 1957 and so have seen prices go up and down. It does not matter much to me since it is just a hobby from my standpoint, but to those who sell for a living or sell to fund their collecting goals, movement in prices are important, and a thread like this can be informative. I wish his style was less confrontational and in your face, but to each his own
I do think CrissCriss is correct in that certain cards have corrected or are in correction meaning they have declined in value atleast 10% from their high. It appears others cards may still be in their upward trend like the Bird/magic rookie or the Thomas as some suggest and if Anyone chooses to post that data we would see for sure those data points.
I think the reason most who post are so dismissive of the OP is because he has on many previous posts said the market correction was coming or was happening but the prices moved much higher instead. Even if he is actually right today they feel his advice is useless because if they would have listened previous times they would have missed out on 50%+ upside moves so catching a 10% down move still puts them behind.
Being open minded I do think we have seen a 10% decline in a wide enough pool to say we probably have seen a correction in vintage baseball cards, 1978/79 unopened and 1986 fleer basketball.
Now for the useful part of this discussion... Where do we go next, is the next 10% move up or down? Actually I don't know, I think the sentiment is implied if not outright stated Criss thinks it downward. If I were to take a stance I would stand behind the next 20% being upward not downward for unopened and 1970's/80s basketball cards. I will try to capture some of today's prices so we can compare where they finish 2018 and see if I'm closer that it's 20% up or Criss is right and its closer to 20% down.
There are plenty of cards that are still holding strong or going up. That said there are plenty that have dropped significantly.
Let's look at this like the stock market. The SP 500 is not an equally weighted index. The cards that the OP is referencing would be the higher weightings in the index. If they fall and the smallest weightings don't, the market is still falling.
I just posted a record sale for the 1997 Floyd Mayweather Rookie. The asking prices spiked significantly since the announcement of the McGregor fight and one seller found a buyer at a high price. That said the turn over is very light and one example selling for a high price doesn't mean that is the new value. There are only 1,000 copies so it won't turn over significantly ever. Is it nice to see? Yes but unless you were the seller it is just marked up op on paper.
There are loads of HOF rookies out there from the major sports so the float turns over at a much higher rate and if recent sales are lower the market is lower. You need a lot of demand to keep the prices up after a huge move. I think the real issue of market decline pertains to items that went parabolic. Anytime an asset moves with such an extreme slope it is hard not to attract sellers if additional supply exists and it seems that is what has happened here.
For niche markets like I collect the Pop levels are so low that if a highly desirable card comes up you aren't winning it for less than prior sales but because the interest is so limited relative to the major sports I don't think it even applies to this discussion.
anyone can claim "correction, correction" for months/years on end and eventually be right. blind squirrel effect.
futhermore, a blanket statement of such that covers the entire sports card arena was just absurd.
not until recently did he list some exact cards in which the manipulation was occurring, which most knew was happening way back when and primarily bc of the psa 10's that were slated to be auctioned off shortly there after.
but even then, i dont consider it a "correction" bc of the manipulation factor. a correction to vcp figures? sure. but i dont put much weight in those. as stated earlier, high end examples are a case by case basis.
and jordans will almost always have some type of "correction"/manipulation occurring at any point in time. not exactly the call of the century there either...
@rtimmer said:
Now for the useful part of this discussion... Where do we go next, is the next 10% move up or down?
hard to blanket the entire card market, but i will say that in regards to key hof rc and certain mainstream cards that the market will remain level w short bursts both ways depending on the time of the year but w the overall market moving upwards.
several factors that came into play are over (for now)...manipulation, card flippers ability to continue to do so, a crazy presidential election and yes, the stock market/certain investment opportunities & portfolios.
@UltimateSchmidt said:
The most successful sellers I've worked with, and frankly the ones I've paid the most to, have been the people who actually communicate efficiently with me and work on prices. With the rampant shilling that goes on with auctions I never participate. I honestly think anyone that does is getting scammed. I look for those who price high and accept offers. I've actually learned a lot from these sellers too when they educate me as why they are asking what they're asking.
Well said. See my review of the july chantilly show in another thread.
Criss cross is missing accurate data and stistical siginifance for making his claim. Whether it's the big hurt or bird/johnson that rises like crazy, he tends to throw generalizations. Do a real study or keep your opinion to just an opinion. You are so off base on trying to make a real opinion based on fact. Trends and excitement with PSA as a guide make our market. It's ebbs and flows bro..stop trying to make a major statement that is based on zero data.
A nice Brett PSA 9 auction ended on ebay tonight for $1,981, they were selling
for what, around 3 grand a year ago.
And now for some truly bizarre news.
A 1975 topps PSA 9 Merv Rettenmund sold at auction on ebay tonight for $202.50
Is this a low pop 9 card? No, it is not. Pop 112 in PSA 9, basically a $15 - 20 card, at best.
Two bidders really went after this high pop common.LOL.
We will use some of the key cards that were manipulated as reference:
This time in 2015 a Clemente PSA 8 was selling for $25-28k
In 2016 at this same time there were sales of $131k, $150k, $146k.
Last 3 sales this spring/summer have been for $28k, $40k, and $36k.
Stock market, real estate market, S&P 500 All rising during the last few years, so why a huge spike of 300-400% and subsequent drop back down to same levels as 2 years ago...
You will see the same info on Pete Rose, Nolan Ryan, Jordan, and Aaron rookies but the percentages were far less. Rose went from $5k to $16k back down to $6k during the same time period.
Koufax sold for $23k-27k last year and this year sells for $10-12k with one going for $80k in Goodwin's auction. Year before it was a $5-6k card and not a rare card.
IMO that is not a correction but something else. Mantle cards and CJ's and T206's All were trending up without huge spikes or massive drops. Why would certain ones, pop reports all being similar, not see massive increases and decreases?
Officially, the Buying Group takes no responsibility for any of the reported activities. We have no records in our custody, possession or control. Thank you.
Joe
IG: goatcollectibles23
The biggest lesson I've learned in this hobby, and in life, is that if you have a strong conviction, you owe it to yourself to see it through. Don't sell yourself, or your investments, short. Unless the facts change. Then sell it all.
You point out specific cards that work into your narrative and leave out the ones that don't. Reminds me of something else we've been dealing with in the last year or so . Have a good one man...not interested in teaching a stats class, you can read about statistical signifance on your own and see if your hypothesis that you state as theory is actually justified. I'll hang up.
I think it's pretty clear, say in the case of the Jordan Fleer PSA 10 RC, that certain collectors, perhaps new entrants to the collecting world, wanted a single copy of certain cards, and once they obtained that copy they were effectively out of the market at that point for that for particular card. During the process of obtaining the card, these collectors (myself included, BTW), perhaps more investors than collectors (not myself), no doubt contributed to price increases due to bidding against each other, but after the majority acquired their card the only way those prices could be sustained were if (1) new collectors entered the market, or (2) dealers/flippers continued to speculate and participate in the bidding (which probably does happen for a little while, but once the chance to make 10% or more goes away, it probably stops until prices drop significantly).
Personally I believe on #1 I doubt that has been the case. Just can't see enough new collectors replacing the number of folks who rushed to buy their particular pieces once prices started to be at a point where you could consider it an investment from an absolute perspective. On that point, generally I've observed this when Heritage, who does a pretty good job attracting non-collectors to invest in sports collectibles, gets say a PSA 10 Brett rookie or a PSA 9 Aaron rookie (or Jordan PSA 10 RC, etc.) to go for a big amount due to unsophisticated bidders or whatnot, and then that price reverberates into eBay and other auction houses. Basically, once a card hits say $10k in value, you can start making a claim to people that it could be an "investment" given the starting value. But there are only so many $10k main cards of recognizable players, so once the rush is over on a particular card you should expect a drop.
One of the factors that does impact cards is the overall broader market - stocks, bonds, interest rates.... If the stock market is getting hammered people typically slow down on luxury purchases like boats, cars, vacation homes... Even home sales decline and more people do home improvements rather than buy a new house. It also works when interest rates are at historical lows like we are seeing now in that people borrow cheap money and refinance homes, and I know a lot of people who are doing HELOC's and using that money to invest whether it is buying more properties to rent or resale, second homes, or investing because the money is so cheap.
Markets and equities will always rise and fall, and people will continue to speculate as to what will move and when. Smart money will find opportunities to make more on the drops, and will sell at the high points. Cards fall into that category except unlike a sports car or boat or even a house scarcity might force a purchase or sale due to the lack of supply/inventory.
IMO here are the items I see with upside as well as ones that are stagnant or could decline:
Upside
CJ's - especially HOF players like Jackson, Cobb, Johnson...
T206's and W600 Cabinets are seeing big prices across all grades.
Mantle cards from 1951-1959 - centered examples in all grades are bringing strong prices.
1980's HOF and future HOF cards - as guys who were kids in the 80's turn 40+ they are looking to get cards of the hard to get players from their youth - similar to guys in their 50's who grabbed Brett, Schmidt, Munson, Yount rookies from the 70's.
Aaron and Mays - people don't appreciate their numbers as they should, and not to be morbid with both in their 80's now we might not get to see them in person for much longer. I think both players cards have room to move.
Bench and Ryan cards - two or the greatest ever to play at their positions.
Bird Magic rookies
Steroid era players - McGwire, Bonds, Clemens...
70's unopened - never see items from 1970, 1971, 1973 racks, 1974 racks, 1975 racks... A 1971 pic, came up for sale and went for $2k - hard to find stuff keeps going up price wise.
Downside
Any card that saw huge run ups in the last few years and then crashed due to manipulation, "buying group"... Rose, Clemente, Koufax, Jordan rookies... people who bought in near the highs will not want to get burned again.
High priced commons going for 2-3x like they did the last few years
@CrissCriss said:
Rookie Wax: I am not having a debate with you about a modern era eerie card. Start your own thread if you want to have that discussion.
Belz: "missing accurate data & statistical significance ", huh? Cite the data I am missing. I'll hang up and listen.
"I think the market in general is going to continue to go up."
"This is not a correction but something else."
It's something else all right.
lol....of course you wouldn't fill in the 1990 NNOF...it wouldn't fit with your "data", so now you start adjusting your argument.
Here is another for you:
Fill in the blanks on the 1974 George Gervin rookie in a PSA 8:
2015 VCP Price:
2016 VCP Price:
2017 VCP Price:
Or, let me guess...you will instead change your argument once again and say you were only talking about football and baseball from the 1950 and 1960s.
This sports card market is similar to the stock market-- some segments are hot, others have cooled down. Each of us can site examples hot and cold, of which doesn't make us right or others wrong in their assessment. Criss is correct, as are others with their examples. The true tell tale signs will be the sales at the National and East Coast National, and if the buying by dealers in certain segments is strong or weak.
Have fun with the hobby, enjoy your collections.
@jfkheat said:
Anything that goes up as fast as cards did last year will eventually drop. **The same thing happened with unopened 1980s football boxes. Most are down 30-40% below what they were selling for last year. **
James
Really? I have only noticed a slight drop in 1986. And a slight drop at that. Every other 1980's football unopened authenticated box appears to be holding its own(don't know how this years National went so take it for what it's worth). 1980 seems to be trending upward actually. I have recorded everything I have bought since July 2014, and I have never paid less for a box of anything 80's football than the time before (I'm talking authenticated of course).
If you are finding authenticated unopened 80's football at pre 2016 prices, can you hook a buddy up
Really? I have only noticed a slight drop in 1986. And a slight drop at that. Every other 1980's football unopened authenticated box appears to be holding its own(don't know how this years National went so take it for what it's worth). 1980 seems to be trending upward actually. I have recorded everything I have bought since July 2014, and I have never paid less for a box of anything 80's football than the time before (I'm talking authenticated of course).
If you are finding authenticated unopened 80's football at pre 2016 prices, can you hook a buddy up
I never said they were down to pre 2016 prices. Some boxes went up 3-400% during the boom. 1981 and 1984 football wax boxes that were selling for $1800-2000 and now selling for $1100-1200. 1986 boxes that were $2200-2400 are now bringing $1600-1800. 1985 boxes went from $700-800 to $500. 1980, 1982 and 1983 boxes are down $100 or so. These are all BBCE sealed boxes prices.
James
Collecting PSA 9's from 1970-1977. Raw 9's from 72-77. Raw 10's from '78-'83. Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks. Prefer to buy in bulk.
I don't know how much money an ATM holds, but on Friday the ATM at the show ran out of money!!!
"You know we just don't recognize the most significant moments of our lives while they're happening. Back then I thought, well, there'll be other days. I didn't realize that that was the only day."
low end 8, crap centering, w unusual pd for the card (yellow line, left hand side) equals zero chance of bump and prolly only garner a 7 to 7.5 w todays standards.
Comments
Will this will be the sequel to the 57-58 TV show, Meet McGraw ? Will the theme song still be One For My Baby ?
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
Would have been cool if he signed his name in the blue box. Then it could be the only SNOF.
Yes. My time out was deserved and I served about 3 months.
Still waiting for your data on the 1990 Topps NNOF Frank Thomas. Go ahead Crisser, just fill in the blanks I provided:
2015 VCP Price:
2016 VCP Price:
2017 VCP Price:
RookieWax--I get your point on the Thomas ( and happy about it since I have one), but his observations here overall are not off base. I have been strictly a collector since 1957 and so have seen prices go up and down. It does not matter much to me since it is just a hobby from my standpoint, but to those who sell for a living or sell to fund their collecting goals, movement in prices are important, and a thread like this can be informative. I wish his style was less confrontational and in your face, but to each his own
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
I do think CrissCriss is correct in that certain cards have corrected or are in correction meaning they have declined in value atleast 10% from their high. It appears others cards may still be in their upward trend like the Bird/magic rookie or the Thomas as some suggest and if Anyone chooses to post that data we would see for sure those data points.
I think the reason most who post are so dismissive of the OP is because he has on many previous posts said the market correction was coming or was happening but the prices moved much higher instead. Even if he is actually right today they feel his advice is useless because if they would have listened previous times they would have missed out on 50%+ upside moves so catching a 10% down move still puts them behind.
Being open minded I do think we have seen a 10% decline in a wide enough pool to say we probably have seen a correction in vintage baseball cards, 1978/79 unopened and 1986 fleer basketball.
Now for the useful part of this discussion... Where do we go next, is the next 10% move up or down? Actually I don't know, I think the sentiment is implied if not outright stated Criss thinks it downward. If I were to take a stance I would stand behind the next 20% being upward not downward for unopened and 1970's/80s basketball cards. I will try to capture some of today's prices so we can compare where they finish 2018 and see if I'm closer that it's 20% up or Criss is right and its closer to 20% down.
Join the Rookie stars on top PSA registry today:
1980-1989 Cello Packs - Rookies
There are plenty of cards that are still holding strong or going up. That said there are plenty that have dropped significantly.
Let's look at this like the stock market. The SP 500 is not an equally weighted index. The cards that the OP is referencing would be the higher weightings in the index. If they fall and the smallest weightings don't, the market is still falling.
I just posted a record sale for the 1997 Floyd Mayweather Rookie. The asking prices spiked significantly since the announcement of the McGregor fight and one seller found a buyer at a high price. That said the turn over is very light and one example selling for a high price doesn't mean that is the new value. There are only 1,000 copies so it won't turn over significantly ever. Is it nice to see? Yes but unless you were the seller it is just marked up op on paper.
There are loads of HOF rookies out there from the major sports so the float turns over at a much higher rate and if recent sales are lower the market is lower. You need a lot of demand to keep the prices up after a huge move. I think the real issue of market decline pertains to items that went parabolic. Anytime an asset moves with such an extreme slope it is hard not to attract sellers if additional supply exists and it seems that is what has happened here.
For niche markets like I collect the Pop levels are so low that if a highly desirable card comes up you aren't winning it for less than prior sales but because the interest is so limited relative to the major sports I don't think it even applies to this discussion.
objection.
anyone can claim "correction, correction" for months/years on end and eventually be right. blind squirrel effect.
futhermore, a blanket statement of such that covers the entire sports card arena was just absurd.
not until recently did he list some exact cards in which the manipulation was occurring, which most knew was happening way back when and primarily bc of the psa 10's that were slated to be auctioned off shortly there after.
but even then, i dont consider it a "correction" bc of the manipulation factor. a correction to vcp figures? sure. but i dont put much weight in those. as stated earlier, high end examples are a case by case basis.
and jordans will almost always have some type of "correction"/manipulation occurring at any point in time. not exactly the call of the century there either...
hard to blanket the entire card market, but i will say that in regards to key hof rc and certain mainstream cards that the market will remain level w short bursts both ways depending on the time of the year but w the overall market moving upwards.
several factors that came into play are over (for now)...manipulation, card flippers ability to continue to do so, a crazy presidential election and yes, the stock market/certain investment opportunities & portfolios.
Well said. See my review of the july chantilly show in another thread.
I have the same experience...
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/comment/11756635#Comment_11756635
Criss cross is missing accurate data and stistical siginifance for making his claim. Whether it's the big hurt or bird/johnson that rises like crazy, he tends to throw generalizations. Do a real study or keep your opinion to just an opinion. You are so off base on trying to make a real opinion based on fact. Trends and excitement with PSA as a guide make our market. It's ebbs and flows bro..stop trying to make a major statement that is based on zero data.
A nice Brett PSA 9 auction ended on ebay tonight for $1,981, they were selling
for what, around 3 grand a year ago.
And now for some truly bizarre news.
A 1975 topps PSA 9 Merv Rettenmund sold at auction on ebay tonight for $202.50
Is this a low pop 9 card? No, it is not. Pop 112 in PSA 9, basically a $15 - 20 card, at best.
Two bidders really went after this high pop common.LOL.
We will use some of the key cards that were manipulated as reference:
This time in 2015 a Clemente PSA 8 was selling for $25-28k
In 2016 at this same time there were sales of $131k, $150k, $146k.
Last 3 sales this spring/summer have been for $28k, $40k, and $36k.
Stock market, real estate market, S&P 500 All rising during the last few years, so why a huge spike of 300-400% and subsequent drop back down to same levels as 2 years ago...
You will see the same info on Pete Rose, Nolan Ryan, Jordan, and Aaron rookies but the percentages were far less. Rose went from $5k to $16k back down to $6k during the same time period.
Koufax sold for $23k-27k last year and this year sells for $10-12k with one going for $80k in Goodwin's auction. Year before it was a $5-6k card and not a rare card.
IMO that is not a correction but something else. Mantle cards and CJ's and T206's All were trending up without huge spikes or massive drops. Why would certain ones, pop reports all being similar, not see massive increases and decreases?
Officially, the Buying Group takes no responsibility for any of the reported activities. We have no records in our custody, possession or control. Thank you.
IG: goatcollectibles23
The biggest lesson I've learned in this hobby, and in life, is that if you have a strong conviction, you owe it to yourself to see it through. Don't sell yourself, or your investments, short. Unless the facts change. Then sell it all.
You point out specific cards that work into your narrative and leave out the ones that don't. Reminds me of something else we've been dealing with in the last year or so
. Have a good one man...not interested in teaching a stats class, you can read about statistical signifance on your own and see if your hypothesis that you state as theory is actually justified. I'll hang up.
I think it's pretty clear, say in the case of the Jordan Fleer PSA 10 RC, that certain collectors, perhaps new entrants to the collecting world, wanted a single copy of certain cards, and once they obtained that copy they were effectively out of the market at that point for that for particular card. During the process of obtaining the card, these collectors (myself included, BTW), perhaps more investors than collectors (not myself), no doubt contributed to price increases due to bidding against each other, but after the majority acquired their card the only way those prices could be sustained were if (1) new collectors entered the market, or (2) dealers/flippers continued to speculate and participate in the bidding (which probably does happen for a little while, but once the chance to make 10% or more goes away, it probably stops until prices drop significantly).
Personally I believe on #1 I doubt that has been the case. Just can't see enough new collectors replacing the number of folks who rushed to buy their particular pieces once prices started to be at a point where you could consider it an investment from an absolute perspective. On that point, generally I've observed this when Heritage, who does a pretty good job attracting non-collectors to invest in sports collectibles, gets say a PSA 10 Brett rookie or a PSA 9 Aaron rookie (or Jordan PSA 10 RC, etc.) to go for a big amount due to unsophisticated bidders or whatnot, and then that price reverberates into eBay and other auction houses. Basically, once a card hits say $10k in value, you can start making a claim to people that it could be an "investment" given the starting value. But there are only so many $10k main cards of recognizable players, so once the rush is over on a particular card you should expect a drop.
Just my observations.
-Nat
One of the factors that does impact cards is the overall broader market - stocks, bonds, interest rates.... If the stock market is getting hammered people typically slow down on luxury purchases like boats, cars, vacation homes... Even home sales decline and more people do home improvements rather than buy a new house. It also works when interest rates are at historical lows like we are seeing now in that people borrow cheap money and refinance homes, and I know a lot of people who are doing HELOC's and using that money to invest whether it is buying more properties to rent or resale, second homes, or investing because the money is so cheap.
Markets and equities will always rise and fall, and people will continue to speculate as to what will move and when. Smart money will find opportunities to make more on the drops, and will sell at the high points. Cards fall into that category except unlike a sports car or boat or even a house scarcity might force a purchase or sale due to the lack of supply/inventory.
IMO here are the items I see with upside as well as ones that are stagnant or could decline:
Upside
CJ's - especially HOF players like Jackson, Cobb, Johnson...
T206's and W600 Cabinets are seeing big prices across all grades.
Mantle cards from 1951-1959 - centered examples in all grades are bringing strong prices.
1980's HOF and future HOF cards - as guys who were kids in the 80's turn 40+ they are looking to get cards of the hard to get players from their youth - similar to guys in their 50's who grabbed Brett, Schmidt, Munson, Yount rookies from the 70's.
Aaron and Mays - people don't appreciate their numbers as they should, and not to be morbid with both in their 80's now we might not get to see them in person for much longer. I think both players cards have room to move.
Bench and Ryan cards - two or the greatest ever to play at their positions.
Bird Magic rookies
Steroid era players - McGwire, Bonds, Clemens...
70's unopened - never see items from 1970, 1971, 1973 racks, 1974 racks, 1975 racks... A 1971 pic, came up for sale and went for $2k - hard to find stuff keeps going up price wise.
Downside
Any card that saw huge run ups in the last few years and then crashed due to manipulation, "buying group"... Rose, Clemente, Koufax, Jordan rookies... people who bought in near the highs will not want to get burned again.
High priced commons going for 2-3x like they did the last few years
lol....of course you wouldn't fill in the 1990 NNOF...it wouldn't fit with your "data", so now you start adjusting your argument.
Here is another for you:
Fill in the blanks on the 1974 George Gervin rookie in a PSA 8:
2015 VCP Price:
2016 VCP Price:
2017 VCP Price:
Or, let me guess...you will instead change your argument once again and say you were only talking about football and baseball from the 1950 and 1960s.
so your statement is covering the top 150 post-war cards then, correct?
This sports card market is similar to the stock market-- some segments are hot, others have cooled down. Each of us can site examples hot and cold, of which doesn't make us right or others wrong in their assessment. Criss is correct, as are others with their examples. The true tell tale signs will be the sales at the National and East Coast National, and if the buying by dealers in certain segments is strong or weak.
Have fun with the hobby, enjoy your collections.
On 05/30/16 I bought a Cristiano Ronaldo PSA 10 rookie card ( 2002 Panini Mega Craques)
On 07/23/17 one sold on eBay for 152% more.
That's some serious time. Went in soft came out harder I'm sure!
"#FreeTravisT"
Kevin
Kevin
Really? I have only noticed a slight drop in 1986. And a slight drop at that. Every other 1980's football unopened authenticated box appears to be holding its own(don't know how this years National went so take it for what it's worth). 1980 seems to be trending upward actually. I have recorded everything I have bought since July 2014, and I have never paid less for a box of anything 80's football than the time before (I'm talking authenticated of course).
If you are finding authenticated unopened 80's football at pre 2016 prices, can you hook a buddy up
I never said they were down to pre 2016 prices. Some boxes went up 3-400% during the boom. 1981 and 1984 football wax boxes that were selling for $1800-2000 and now selling for $1100-1200. 1986 boxes that were $2200-2400 are now bringing $1600-1800. 1985 boxes went from $700-800 to $500. 1980, 1982 and 1983 boxes are down $100 or so. These are all BBCE sealed boxes prices.
James
Im in for a few boxes if FASC
Collecting Unopened from '72-'83; mostly BBCE certified boxes/cases/racks.
Prefer to buy in bulk.
I don't know how much money an ATM holds, but on Friday the ATM at the show ran out of money!!!
https://goldinauctions.com/1955_Topps__164_Roberto_Clemente_Rookie_Card___PSA-LOT32885.aspx
So which narrative does this closing price support?
def one of the manipulated cards.
low end 8, crap centering, w unusual pd for the card (yellow line, left hand side) equals zero chance of bump and prolly only garner a 7 to 7.5 w todays standards.
price seems about right to me.
and on par w pre-manip figures.
no umbrella needed.