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A Woman as Queen and Sole Ruler? NEVER! ... at least not in 1135

Henry VIII is best known for his six wives and how he disposed of some of them. To people it might have looked like Henry the hots for different women, and that played a factor in his actions, but there was another very important factor that drove Henry to what he did. He desperately wanted to produce a male heir, and early British history showed why that was so.

At the end of “The Scandalous Life of Rufus, a.k.a. King William II of England” discussion that I started yesterday, we learned that King Henry I (ruled 1100 to 1135) came to power after he disposed of his older brother, King William II or “Rufus.” Despite its dubious beginning, Henry’s rule proved him to be an able king.

King Henry had two legitimate children, son, William and a daughter, Matilda. William looked to an able successor to his father, but then tragedy struck. In 1120 the king and court were returning for a successful battle in France. A new vessel, The White Ship, was offered to the king for his return to England, but he chose to let his son ride back on the craft instead. Young William, aged 17, and his friends were in high spirits, and all of them, including the captain his crew, got rip roaring drunk. As the ship was leaving the harbor in the dark, it struck rock and sank in short order. Everyone, including young William, on the ship drowned except for the son of a butcher. It was said the Henry I never smiled after the tragedy.

Left with only Matilda as his only surviving, legitimate heir, tried to extract from the nobles that they would support her as their queen. Many nobles paid lip service to that request, but when Henry died, many of them went back on their word.

In medieval times, a woman could certainly become a queen as the wife of a king. She could represent him at tournaments, feasts and other social occasions. She could even act briefly as the head of state when the king was out of the country, but she could never rule on her own.

When Henry I, Stephen, who was son of one William the Conqueror’s daughters laid claim the crown. Stephen claimed that Henry had designated him king on his deathbed, but no one was able to confirm that assertion. Matilda moved quickly to claim her birthright, and the country was thrown into a Civil War that last for almost two decades.

At one point Matilda’s supporters captured Stephen and declared her to be the “Lady of England.” In response Stephen’s supporters captured Matilda’s brother and forced an exchange for Stephen’s release before she could be crowned. Ultimately Stephen give up his family claim to the crown after his wife and son died. He agreed that Matilda’s son, Henry would succeed him and that ended the issue of royal succession. Henry II became king upon Stephen’s death in 1154.

Henry VIII was well aware of problems Matilda had in claiming the crown as queen. This explains why he went to great lengths to find a woman who could bear a son for him. Of course we know today that the fault laid with Henry with respect to the gender of the child, but that was not known in Henry’s time.

Stephen’s coins were of very poor quality. They were made at time when England was in the upheaval of a civil war. The penny shown here is truly remarkable although it might not look like much to most collectors.


Matida issued pennies too, but her coins are so rare as to make them virtually not collectable. One dealer told me that he owned one years ago that was broken in half. He put it together with glue. Somehow owership of something like does not appeal to me. I once passed on a very rare Hard Times token that was virtually broken in half. That's one risk I just don't want to take.

Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?

Comments

  • BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 14, 2017 3:06PM

    Of course, Henry VIII was later succeeded by two of his daughters, one after the other, after his only son died.

    One might think that the two situations you describe, four hundred years apart, were not analogous.

    Your historical sketch of Stephen and Matilda is very very good and worthwhile, but the mention of Henry VIII is a stretch.

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,217 ✭✭✭✭✭

    One might think that the two situations you describe, four hundred years apart, were not analogous.

    Please explain how you can say that. Queen Mary was one of the worst British royals in history given the number of the people she had burned at the stake for their religious beliefs. Yet she died with the crown on her head after marrying the king of England's major rivals.

    Four hundred years is a long time. Attitudes can change a lot. This country is only 241 years old.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 14, 2017 3:27PM

    The very fact that two of Henry VIII's daughters reigned as sovereign queens for a total of fifty years between them, shows the situation was very different from earlier times.

  • Jackthecat1Jackthecat1 Posts: 1,122 ✭✭✭

    The excellent 'Brother Cadfael' series of mystery novels by Ellis Peters is set in the period of civil war between Matilda and Stephen. I believe there are a few mentions of the circulating coins at the time in the books.

    Member ANS, ANA, GSNA, TNC



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  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,217 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillDugan1959 said:
    Of course, Henry VIII was later succeeded by two of his daughters, one after the other, after his only son died.

    One might think that the two situations you describe, four hundred years apart, were not analogous.

    Your historical sketch of Stephen and Matilda is very very good and worthwhile, but the mention of Henry VIII is a stretch.

    I disagree. Can we leave it at that?

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭✭

    With great respect for you, certainly.

  • WillieBoyd2WillieBoyd2 Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭✭✭

    In 1558, John Knox, the Protestant leader of Scotland, published an anti-queen book with a great title:

    The First Blast of the Trumpet against the Monstrous Regiment of Women

    He mainly directed it at Queen Mary Tudor of England as she was Catholic.

    :)

    https://www.brianrxm.com
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  • ShadyDaveShadyDave Posts: 2,205 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great history and nice penny, thanks for sharing.

  • TwoKopeikiTwoKopeiki Posts: 9,733 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A female ruler? Whats next - a female Doctor Who? :)

  • ashelandasheland Posts: 23,309 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I like these historic threads, Bill! :)

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,217 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Please let me clarify why I brought Henry VIII into this discussion from the beginning. Henry desperately wanted a son because he wanted to keep the crown within the family. Henry was a very well educated man, and he undoubtedly knew the history of Stephan and Matilda. He knew that queens ruling alone had never been acceptable in the history of his country. That made my mention of him appropriate for the piece that I wrote at the front this string of posts.

    It was indeed remarkable that Mary became queen and was not forced from office. She not only had “the woman thing” to deal with, but also an unforced political error, her marriage to King Philip of Spain. Spain was a major rival of England, and England was decidedly the weaker country at that time. To have the appearance of the King Spain one heartbeat away from the British crown had to be very unsettling for any British citizen who was following the events of the day.

    Yes, I know that Philip agreed that he would not have become the British king if Mary died before him. Still, it had to be an unsettling situation.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 20, 2017 6:28AM

    After Henry VIII despoiled the Catholic Church to enrich his supporters (a huge, huge event in English history), the issue was no longer whether or not the sovereign was male or female. The issue was whether or not the sovereign was Protestant or Catholic.

    The Protestant initially proposed in lieu of Mary Tudor was Lady Jane Grey (IIRC, a distant cousin with a drop of Tudor blood). It seems that Lady Jane Grey did not have a penis.

  • TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,794 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting write-up, Bill. Thank you. I collect Irish coinage, but I simply have nothing in the 1100-1135 time frame from Ireland, which would be at the very end of the Hiberno-Norse period (Phase VI) and before the coinage of John, as Lord, beginning in 1180 A.D. I'll look into it for my collecting purposes.

    Tom

  • BillyKingsleyBillyKingsley Posts: 2,661 ✭✭✭✭

    I wish that coinage from this era was more collectible. I directly descend from Matilda. Funny thing is that I had been reading about these people for years, and didn't find the connection until very late 2015.

    Billy Kingsley ANA R-3146356 Cardboard History // Numismatic History
  • lordmarcovanlordmarcovan Posts: 43,631 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I had a Stephen Watford type penny in my pre-millennial, pre-Internet, pre-means-of-photography days. It was perhaps as nicely struck as the one in the OP (and yes, I believe the one in the OP is pretty nicely struck for the issue.)

    Mine was not as high grade as the OP coin, though you could clearly see the hand holding the scepter, which you cannot on the OP coin due to the vagaries of the strike and the flan.

    That coin was the prize of my early-1990s collection, since it was well beyond my usual budget tier at the time. I got it in a fortuitous swap, as I recall, from a dealer who didn't care much about non-US material.

    It is a very interesting period in history.


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  • NapNap Posts: 1,729 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Stephen of Blois, later King Stephen, was supposed to be on that same White Ship, but came down with dysentery and decided to stay home. Quite fortuitous diarrhea for Stephen, though for the sake of England it might've been better if he'd have been on the boat.

    Here's my poor coin of Stephen:

    I do not have a coin of Matilda, as mentioned they are quite rare. Most of the known examples are from the Coed-y-Wenallt hoard and many are chipped or broken.

    Here's a question- how many queens appeared on English coins prior to the children of Henry VIII? (answer to follow)

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