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Disappointing 52 Topps Mantle PSA 8 auction
Tomi
Posts: 643 ✭✭✭
Didn't expect the card to go for this little. Good centering in an old flip. Did most just miss this auction? Just not expecting this card to drop less than half from the last few sales.
https://huntauctions.com/live/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=58&lot_num=314&lot_qual=
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What is the reputation of Hunt Auctions compared to others? I am familiar with Goldin, Heritage, Mile High, PWCC, etc, but not this company so much.
IG: goatcollectibles23
The biggest lesson I've learned in this hobby, and in life, is that if you have a strong conviction, you owe it to yourself to see it through. Don't sell yourself, or your investments, short. Unless the facts change. Then sell it all.
That card was purchased for significantly more and the owner didn't put a reserve on it above what they paid? Am I understanding this correctly?
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
With a card of this caliber, why not auction it with a company known more for their sports related memorabilia...and following? Pretty card, but poor choice of consignment.
I'll give you 3 good reasons:
a) The centering is not that good. The potential for a half million dollar card at this level would need a better top to bottom feature. My opinion.
b) Old flip is not beneficial and invokes a thought of why not get it reholdered? So, why wasn't it reholdered for better presentation?
c) Most glaring of all is the upper left corner. It's damaged. Also detectable wear visible on the reverse. I wouldn't be happy spending a quarter of a million dollars for a damaged corner. It looks like no one else would be either.
In all fairness, the card DOES have gorgeous color, framing, clarity, surface.....features which would look spectacular on a card with better centering at the grade level. I personally believe the bidders were treating the value of this card as if it were in a PSA 7.5 NM+ slab. Again, just my opinion. I don't think the closing price reflects the reputation of the auction company. Let's see if anyone agrees.
+1
Donato
Donato's Complete US Type Set ---- Donato's Dansco 7070 Modified Type Set ---- Donato's Basic U.S. Coin Design Set
Successful transactions: Shrub68 (Jim), MWallace (Mike)
Enlighten me.
THE SKY IS FALLING -- THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!!! DUMP THEM ALL NOW BEFORE IT'S TOOOOO LATE
I followed the card - IMO - old flip and perhaps overgraded today but not so for that time frame?
On Hunt.
Been around for a long time - I've been buying from them for 10 yrs - small stuff - but totally happy. I'll post my recent pickup when it comes in.
They just finished up an online/live auction of items from the Clemente Estate.
They had all of his Golden Gloves which went for 65K per except is last which hit 80K.
They had his WS MVP award and some of his WS rings which went over 200K - this is hardly just a run of the mill auction house IMO.
Link to Hunt Auctions.
The reality is you told us so.
The reality is all collectables markets are highly volatile. Cars, paintings, coke machines, juke boxes, advertisements, toys, furniture... all of them. That's why collectables make poor "investments" in many cases.
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
I'm not getting a 8 on any card I submit with that top left corner. Beautiful card, though.
Probably a disappointment for the seller I'd have to imagine, but it's a beautiful card. Were it mine I'd likely get it into the newest generation PSA and let the grade fall where it may. Be interesting to see if they'd downgrade it and make any value adjustment based on that, but it's not like it's a VGEX sitting in an 8 holder. Graded to a different standard then.
OTOH, I'd imagine the buyer is pretty pleased. I'd get it regraded, but who knows what they'll do. The centering isn't perfect, but you tend to see much worse on '52 Mantles, and I find this one pretty pleasing, centering-wise.
Thought it might be good to post a pic of the card in question onto the thread. The drag and drop works great! Hadn't actually tried it yet (I'm lazy.)
I do not understand why people think a downgrade would happen with a reholder. PSA would have to pay the owner the difference in value of an 8 to a 7.5 or a 7 if they changed it. For $50 the card is in a new holder as a PSA 8. I highly doubt PSA is cutting a large check.
It does look overgraded as an 8. There is no risk in sending for reholder aside from loss or damage in transit. Honestly, I think the consigner should have chosen a higher profile auction company. For a card of this caliber you want to have the nonstop ads and promotion that so many other companies utilize.
Upper left corner looks brown. I doubt this card gets a lot higher than a 6 if you took it out and regraded it. At most a 6.5. But it would be a nice 6.5. what 's the old saying, buy the card not the....
No way is this card an 8 in 2017. I don't see a drop in grade with a reholder since PSA will be writing a nice check.
Still a nice card with amazing color.
I don't see the card as brown in the upper left corner, but a trick of the scan sort of casting a shadow where it has a tiny ding/bend in that area. I have a more modern graded example of a '65 Killebrew with just that type of corner ding graded a PSA 7. Little less at stake though with that one.
Either way, to pay that kind of scratch for any card, hopefully I'd be interested enough to travel and arrange to check it out in person under a good light.
Probably the case, yes. However, cracking it out just to get it regraded just to "see" if it would come back lower, would absolutely negate any possibility of PSA cutting a check whatsoever. It's at least worth a review and discussion at the highest levels, if (on in-person examination) it is arguable that it shouldn't be an 8.
I'd love to own this card! It's sweet. But any '52 Topps Mantle is a pure pipe dream for me. ;-)
Beautiful card. But I agree looks more like a 7 or 7.5 on a good day. I can see why it would not command a typical PSA 8 price. I would love to have that card in my collection regardless. Other 1952 Topps Psa 8s (regardless of player) look much sharper. As stated here numerous times, most of the folks shelling out hundreds of thousands of dollars for cards these days are looking more at the card than the grade on the holder.
I have a feeling that if this card is re-holdered and sent to a big auction house that it would go for $400k+.
What do 7's go for these days? That's where this one belongs.
I'd venture a guess that anyone in the market for a 52T Mantle was aware this card was up for auction.
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
I think it is more likely a correction in market price for the card. The buyer pool becomes a lot smaller for this caliber of item, and once a few potential buyers obtain their example of the item and drop out of bidding on future offerings, the price typically reduces a bit (simple supply/demand ratio).
The card was well advertised with print and online advertisements. Hunt Auctions is a major established auction company - they are the official auctioneer for MLB and NFL, and also have sold the collections/estates of countless sports Players/Hall of Famers (DiMaggio, Williams, Munson, Clemente, etc.). They are a very reputable company to deal with. Not sure how some on here have not heard of them or think that they are not a major sports auction house.
That all might be, but I had not ever heard their name until now and judging by the replies in this thread, there are many others who don't know them. I've never heard of them selling much of anything in the way of important or iconic cards until now. I just glanced at everything that sold in that same auction and there are some very nice and high value items, but it looks like they mainly consign autographs and memorabilia. Not much in the way of valuable cards outside of the Mantle.
I'm with others in that it was a major error by the seller to take it here. I can't imagine why he would. The whole thing just seems a little goofy. Regardless, the winner got a great deal. I think if this card goes through one of the major auction houses it gets a lot more. I don't think Hunt got nearly as many looks as HA, REA, Memory Lane, Mile High, SCP, etc would have
TheClockworkAngelCollection
Jimmy, how do you know the old owner paid so much more? I don't see that card on VCP any time recently...
TheClockworkAngelCollection
The buyer's group will correct this soon.
For a downgrade on a card like this I would expect PSA's insurance company to be covering the check under errors and omissions (after any deductible of course).
Dave
The guy who started the thread implied this card had sold for more the last two times. I was asking to verify if he meant this exact same card, or just some other 52T Mantle graded a PSA 8.
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
The grade is an opinion and you have no legal recourse against them. They are only "liable" for the cost of the grading service. You aren't legally entitled to receive any price for your card simply because PSA graded it. I am pretty sure it explains it all right there in the fine print. Their literature also says they don't "downgrade" either if you ask to reevaluate.
I actively collect Kirby Puckett. I have collections of Michael Jordan, Emmitt Smith, Roberto Clemente, Dwight Gooden, Tom Seaver, Errict Rhett and Evan Longoria.
This is not correct. PSA will downgrade a card upon reevaluation if it is clearly overgraded. That is the point of the grade guarantee. PSA will in turn reimburse you for the difference in value between the two grades upon reholdering the card at the lower grade.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Wondering if this transaction will make it into VCP and significantly alter a cosmetic average. To add further fuel to this fire, I'd opine that the Heritage and Memory Lane PSA 8 examples sold earlier this year both possess better overall features at the price point. The buyer of the card in this thread has perhaps made a decent investment, but now the card is visible. Had the former owner had the card reslabbed in a fresh holder with flip, I'd be willing to suggest that it could have earned another 10 to 20 percent on the hammer price with Hunt Auctions. It still would have fallen short of the average. There is no reason in H-E-double hockey sticks to downgrade the card. It should possess and retain the highest opinion possible without causing legal conflict. It is and always will be just an opinion.
I do not understand why putting the same card in a new holder with the same grade would result in a higher sales price. Unless I misunderstand the reholder fee is only $50 maximum. If that theory is correct are there folks on here buying up auctions left and right with old holders, reholderong and then selling? Sounds like a guaranteed way to make 10-20%. Costs $7 on cards under $5000 - so for every cart that costs $1000 you make $93 to $200!!! I think we can all see the card inside the holder and there is little to no price difference.
If you wish to generalize, then there is no basis for argument. The suggestion of reholdering does not change the perception of the card itself, however, if you can wrap yourself around the possibility someone might pay more for a prettier package with a shiny hologram, then welcome to Psychology 101.
Would not include me either! This card is out of my league for sure.
The card market is far too efficient for the price differential to be 240K because of a new holder. Anyone buying a card from an auction house that is reputable can easily send it to PSA after the fact and if there is a problem with the authenticity, they will be covered. PSA will make adjustments when the grade differential is egregious but in a case where collectors are debating over a point there is no incentive or reason for them to adjust the grade lower and have to pay out funds.
I think if people are being honest with themselves this is a bearish sale and when cards are on fire collectors will seek them out from any source and pay top dollar if need be.
The prices paid on NM+ copies have corrected significantly so it probably shouldn't come as a surprise that PSA 8's have come in too.
I get it that people like me and others don't buy cards in this price range and really have no say so in the market but from a bystanders perspective it looks like a correction.
The auction house put an estimate of 300k to 500k so clearly it was a surprise to them too.
I am bullish over the long run on cards like this and was wrong a few years ago when this hit just over 250k and thought it would pause and consolidate its massive gains and instead it doubled. Perhaps it is pulling back to a major breakout point and will reassert itself at some point or maybe this is a one off sale. Time will tell.
That said I don't think the 9's or 10's are any softer on this card. Maybe I am wrong on that too but I don't think so.
If the card was sharp & 50/50 centered it would have hit 600-800k. It's more of a quality correction in the market.
I agree with this assessment, at least as far as a premiums are concerned for cards with superior eye appeal. I think there has been a transition over the past couple of years whereby collectors are focusing more on the card inside the holder instead of the number on the flip. Which is a good thing, imo.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I am just a guy that dabbles in cheap cards but if that is the case why are 7.5's that are gorgeous down 100k?
This isn't exactly a beater.
There are plenty of 8's that haven't changed hands in recent years but of the one's that have I don't recall any that were sharp and 50/50 centered. Those are the 9's.
There are plenty of beautifully centered cards in holders with grades even far below 8. Cards with superior eye appeal for the grade routinely command premium prices ( for the relative grade). There's nothing really revelationary about that. It's not often that we see a PSA 9 52 Mantle in any case. When was the last time one even sold?
On the spectrum of PSA 8 Mantles that have sold in recent years, where would this one fall?
With respect to this particular card, the proof was in the pudding. If we see an 8 (or 7) with superior eye appeal hammer at a far lower price than market value and commissioned through a more noteworthy AH, than I think your assertion about a true market correction may have some more validity to it, though I would agree that for a number of iconic cards whose values were propped up, a market correction has already taken place to some extent.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
That 52 Mantle 7.5 has sold four times in the last year. The words out that it won't bump.
Look I don't have VCP but I read this card went for about 100k less than it has sold for at one time.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Topps-Mickey-Mantle-311-PSA-7-5-NRMT-PWCC-/401356587832?epid=0&hash=item5d72b78338:g:5eMAAOSwN2VZVXOn&nma=true&si=JXoqXlk2%2BB4GWzL4AOIVH2bCfO0%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
I don't know how anyone who owns a card in a particular grade could laugh this off. A PSA 8 in the SMR is at 515K. Maybe the buyers are just that smart but honestly in my experience with the cheap cards I own when they drop in a recent sale it impacts buyers willingness to pay the previous prices.
I really find it hard to defend a sale that is that far away from the market.
In terms of 8's with 50/50 centering and razor sharp corners I don't recall seeing any of those for the Mantle. Maybe they exist but the market isn't pricing the standard off that.
Grote I don't have a dog in the fight and perhaps this card is immune but it wouldn't be prudent for anyone to shake a sale off that is more than 40% away from the market. If you look at the card market like the stock market the FANG cards are dropping one at a time and big time. They shocked on the way up and they have shocked on the way down.
I remember a PSA 8 Clemente being a bad buy at 6k and going to over 125k. Anything is possible and while I have argued that the 1952 Topps Mantle is better than stocks over the long run it went to at least four standard deviations above its mean so a price correction isn't exactly shocking at some point.
Dpeck, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you that certain iconic cards are due and in fact have already seen a correction, due in part to price manipulation. My assertion was more to the point that prices are often relative to eye appeal and other secondary factors. Time will tell and it will be interesting to see what transpires over the next 12-18 months.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I'd absolutely agree that a better looking example at any level will command more attention and a better hammer price. The card in question didn't fall through the cracks. It was judged (heh heh) by serious investors who deemed it to be overvalued for its presentation. That is why I suggested the need for a better looking updated slab. It's really the only way to add lipstick to the pig. The other 2 examples sold this year stand out in ways that make them appear more desirable. Those are the 2 which I can immediately refer to as part of this debate. I do believe in the psychology of the chase as much as defending the correctness of market pricing and have every reason to believe that a gorgeous well-centered PSA 8 '52T Mantle would smash records. It's what the high end buyer wants. And of course the thought of bumping such a card also plays itself in. Imagine the possibilities.