Question - Are graders using plus grades when they assign a grade?
10000lakes
Posts: 811 ✭✭✭✭
Or are they assigning grades at the whole number, ie 63, 64, 65 and the plus grade is an option used by the finalizer.
Like when one grader says 64 and another says 65, the finalizer could either go 64, 64+ or 65.
PCGS website says this about plus grades:
Plus Grades - High end coins for the grade, i.e. "plus" grades, cannot have negative or below average eye appeal for the grade.
Based on the low number of plus grades assigned and some experience of getting a plus graded coin re-graded at the next grade up, I'm thinking a plus grade was awarded only when one grader thought it was the next grade up, but another grader did not, and the finalizer split the difference if the coin also had good eye appeal.
So, Plus grade - real grade assigned by each grader or just a tie breaker grade until with enough re-submissions it might get the next grade up.
I would guess that most answers will be peoples opinion but what do you think 
Comments
I cannot speak for any modern grading service, but when I graded at ANACS (1979-1984) all of the graders (three people looked at every coin) were encouraged to use pluses and minuses to assist the finalizer (the third person to look at any given box) to reach a final grade. If necessary a fourth or fifth person would look at the coin as well.
TD
Personally I would prefer they wouldn't use the pluses. I'm an old guy. When my dad would take me to coin shows and coin shops, back in the 50's, an "AU" graded coin didn't even exist. It would go from XF to uncirculated or BU. Looking at listings of ungraded coins would lead a guy to believe the sellers have NO IDEA it means, or use to mean, brilliant uncirculated. What a mess that is.
Talk about letting a guy off the hook.
Now ya got everything in between and then some.
I suppose if the the graders can't make up their minds it comes in handy
Look at the bottom of this page for PCGS's definition of a + grade pcgs.com/grades
Definitely has me scratching my head from my experience!
It says : "Plus Grades" exhibit exceptional eye appeal for the grade and constitute the top 30% of the coins in the grade.
I think the top 30% part is more like top 10%, and I see lots of coins with neutral eye appeal that have a plus grade.
When plus grading was announced, they thought that 15% - 20% of coins might qualify for a plus grade, but the actual numbers are much lower.
That's why I'm in the camp of thinking plus grade is more of a tie breaker grade, not just high end for the grade.
Ah the plus........the great bailout
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I would suspect each grader actually assigns the + grade. It makes no sense to me to "average" out grades of 64 and 65 and come up with 64+.....especially since the coin may not have strong eye appeal, which is one of the claimed tenets of the + grade. Enough coins haven't been resubmitted yet to get a fair breakdown of + grades. You have to figure they've only been around for 5-8 yrs vs. 31 yrs for all the coins that have gone before them. By the time the dust settles it would not surprise me to see 15-30% of any particular grade being + coins....that could take a decade or more.
Interesting. I have two PCGS Peace Dollars MS65+. Both of which are of great eye appeal. Interesting to read up on the plus grade. Doesn't seem like there are to many around...... in comparison anyway.
Part of the reason I asked this question was on a recent re-grade submission I had 4 plus graded coins get bumped up to the next grade. Made me start to wonder if that was just extreme luck or on this grading event the first two graders agreed to the higher grade and there was no tie breaker.
Just barely over 1% of coins graded in the last 30 days got a plus grade.
That number would have to adjusted, since only certain grades are eligible for plus grades.
But that is a pretty low percentage.
Will post a new thread with pics of the upgrades once the Trueviews are done.
I'd like to see those plus grade stats on only pre-1933 MS/PF coinage. Bulk submissions, especially moderns could skew the numbers.
Here's PCGS pop report data for MS Morgans of the % of + signs appearing in each grade (I ignored PL/DMPL data). Had you asked me estimate these numbers before hand, I would not have come up with this distribution.
MS62 0.50%
MS63 0.47%
MS64 2.5%
MS65 2.28%
MS66 8.0%
MS67 9.4%
MS68 9.3%
It brings up some obvious questions. Do the +'s tend to occur where there is strong enough financial incentive? In other words, the 66-68's are being resubmitted at a higher rate. Note that with rates of 8-9% occurring in under 8 yrs....suggests the "real" rate had + signs been around since 1986 could be 3X that. It would appear to be true that it's easier for MS66 to 68 Morgans to have strong eye appeal for the grade than it is for MS62-65 coins. It has been commented to me by those in the know that arbitrage in 66+ and 67+ Morgans has been a focus of dealers for a while.
I did take a look at comparing an old pop report to the current one for Morgan dollars.
The current pop report shows:
The pops from January 2005 (That's the only old pop report i have) shows these numbers for MS 64, 65, 66, 67
---2005------- ----2017------ --+ pops 2017--
64 - 599,379 1,096,672 27,636
65 - 243,843 387,601 8,838
66 - 48,277 81,303 6,518
67 - 5,528 10,578 996
So plus grades have been available for 7 years out of 12 year difference in pop numbers.
The + grades are roughly 5% of the change in pop for 64 and 65 grades and 20% for the change in pops of 66 and 67.
So maybe the plus grades are much more common in the upper grades vs the lower.
If the grading process were not so subjective (even more so with + 'eye appeal'), this forum's postings would shrink by 25%....
I wonder what the standard is for 'eye appeal'? Sorry, I spent a career working with real standards and it is a particular irritant to me that instead of striving for objective standards, we debate over and over about plus grades, re-submissions, eye appeal etc.. As long as grades are opinions, as long as 'eye appeal' is even more subjective than a grade opinion, and as long as coins continue to get bumped when re-submitted, this round-robin discussion will never cease and it will never, ever be resolved until real standards are established and applied. Cheers, RickO
In my limited experience in submitting coins, I think the + is being used much more frequently these days. When a coin is on the cusp of going from a 65 to a 66 or higher MS grades and there is a big jump in price they will err on the side of caution and give it a + instead of the full 1 point jump.
I've had 2 coins get a + in my last 2 submissions. Both were nice coins, had good eye appeal and were on the cusp of a jump in price and were given a +. I'm not disappointed with the grade, but I do think we will see more coins getting a + in the future. Its tough because there is ambiguity with what the "+" represents and what value a "+" should receive since price guides don't take it into account...