NOT fake 1984 Engelhard Prospectors: A journey to redemption
Weiss
Posts: 9,941 ✭✭✭✭✭
You might recall that I listed a roll of 1984 Engelhard prospectors for sale here a couple of weeks back. I'd gotten them from a dealer who had gotten them from a source I was aware of, who had stacked some outstanding silver bullion back in the early 1980s, and who had been slowly selling these items over the last year or two.
Their previous sales had included, among other nice things, original mint-wrapped rolls of early 1980s Libertads, some with amazing end-roll toning (brilliant purple and blue, reds, oranges). I picked up one of these rolls not quite a year ago and offered it for sale here, but was so happy with the quality that I decided to keep them.
This roll of Englehard Prospectors was equally impressive. Not just set aside and left, but as with their other hoarded items, almost certainly singled out for spectacular quality.
So I picked them up.
When I got these back home, I proceeded to examine every piece in the roll (carefully, of course). Each one was better than the last. Fully struck, razor sharp reeds, and absolutely insane deep pools of black and white mirrors on obverse and reverse. I'd never seen anything like these before. Were they too good?
I've been at this a long, long time. And I'd like to think I can spot a fake with the best of them. The fakes that I've seen are pretty easy to pick out with a little experience. These didn't have any of the tells. But then an online friend (Perry Hall) reminded me that there are some fakes Prospectors out there. And I got to thinking. And I began considering every aspect of these pieces. And I decided to err on the side of caution and I pulled the listing from our BST thread.
These aren't million dollar items--I'm not going broke if they're not what I thought they were. But I wanted to be as sure as I possibly could, for my education and for my reputation as a seller of really good, high quality material if nothing else.
So I got some of my older prospectors from the vault. Different dates, different designs (Big E vs. Eagle reverses). Using a digital scale, and digital calipers, I began comparing known authentic pieces with these new items. Diameter and thickness in hundredths of a MM, weight in grains. And of course magnet, visual, ring, etc.
Every piece across all styles and dates were within very, very tight tolerances.
One thing that had occurred to me was that they might be the coveted proof Prospectors.
Engelhard switched from Big E to eagle in mid-1984. It's the 1984 "Big E" reverse that seem to be the most counterfeited. But here's where it gets interesting: Englehard produced proof eagle prospectors in 1983 (though they weren't supposed to have switched from E to eagle until 1984). And they produced proof flying eagle prospectors in 1985. But there are apparently no known proof flying eagle 1984 prospectors. Maybe these are a "missing link"--proof flying eagle 1984-dated prospectors?
So I took exacting images of everything I could and sent them, along with my measurements and concerns, to allengelhard.com
They just got back to me:
**What we believe you have there is a beautiful roll of well struck and relatively untouched Prosectors. These were produced by a new or relatively new die which resulted in the brilliant finish. Were these to be graded in the same manner as numismatic coins you’d be looking at a nice grade. These are not the proof-like rounds listed as they do not have the frosted finish but are a terrific find nonetheless. Hope this helps!
Cheers for now,
AE
**
There is good reason to be a little cautious when we're buying precious metals. Remember bad guys from the beginning of time have tried to figure out how to fake them. But panic and you might find yourself out of a really nice, high quality material.
--Severian the Lame
Comments
Very Nice!
Nice find but I feel for you the guy who put those away 30+ years ago.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
very proof-like to me! There is a difference between proof and proof-like and I believe your prospectors demonstrate it.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Those are sharp, nicest I've seen.
Dig up the libertads and show some pics again...big fan of the early style.
Thank you! Now I find myself in the same situation I find myself in too often: I select items to offer that I think are amazing...and then I want to keep them
Anyway, here are the libertads. I'd just bought this roll of 64 or 65 grade material, so I opted not to buy the toned roll. And I've regretted it every day since:
--Severian the Lame
Nice! Now I'm going to have to dig mine up and play with them again, ha!
Those are amazing... and you have done everything possible to assure authenticity.... Very commendable... I always find your offerings to be excellent...Cheers, RickO
Those are nice indeed!
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and those clunky old prospectors will be on the BST when?
LOL.
Anyone can make an offer to me anytime on anything I post. I get a ton of enjoyment out of bargaining and horse trading, and I've never been insulted by a legitimate question or offer. That's not to say I'll sell everything. But I certainly don't mind an offer.
That said: these would need a pretty heavy offer.
--Severian the Lame
Small world, I just bought an original roll this week too.
They are beautiful.
Paid $1 over melt. May go back and buy some more...
@2ltdjorn Very cool! Especially that original tube!
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Where is value on these?
eBay seems to be the most accurate gauge of the market on these and practically all less often traded items. Recently closed auctions are in the $20 to $30 range.
--Severian the Lame
Good job Weiss. You have a gift for coming up with interesting stuff. You also love any excuse to use your scale and caliper
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
2ltdjorn2ltdjorn Posts: 1,906 ✭✭✭
June 30, 2017 5:09AM
Small world, I just bought an original roll this week too.
Paid $1 over melt. May go back and buy some more...
Have 4 or 5 rolls of the Libertads but in orginal silver colored paper wrap. I think the years range from 1984-1988.
Any additional value over melt?
I just received five 84 eagle backs. Hard to believe they're not proofs. Prior to finding your post I contacted All Engelhard to ask if any proofs had been acknowledged. I then found your post and shared it with them stating your post looked definitive.
Their response to me was "you've hit it right on the head". Credit belongs to you @Weiss .
Thanks and best.
J
Those are some nice Englehards! It's always interesting to see what pops up in this forum. Weiss, did you ever sell those?
I knew it would happen.
Nope, they remain part of the permanent stack.
--Severian the Lame