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Can Someone explain an MS-70 coin with blemishes and milk spots?
denali12
Posts: 101 ✭
As a newbie still learning- I was looking at an auction yesterday with a PCGS MS-70 label- it's an American eagle Coin- that has some significant milk spots on it and on the reverse a portion of the Mirror is milky.
How does a Coin like that get a MS-70 grade?
I thought "70" was perfection, and this Coin obviously isn't close to perfection. What am I missing on the grading? and how does a Coin like this still get a 70?
Thanks for any input...
2
Comments
when it was put into the slab, it looked like a ms70
handling and storage before or after being slabbed, can affect coin condition years after being slabbed
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2009-AMERICAN-SILVER-EAGLE-PCGS-MS70-BLUE-LABEL/192217207465?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1431.l2649
Don't the milk spots come from mint? so had to be there before slabbed.. or do I have that wrong? thanks
When a coin is MS-70, the only direction is down.
@denali12 ...While most coins do not come from the mint with milk spots, it is believed that the root cause of milk spots is present at the mint, and time allows them to develop into a visible phenomena. Many collectors have revisited their ASE's after being stored for a period of time, only to find them with the dreaded milk spots.
Although there have been rewards offered for a cure, as far as I know, none have been collected. Many years ago, it was proposed (by Russ) that a dip in acetone, upon receipt, would prevent milk spots from developing. While I have never done a controlled experiment (two reasons, one cannot predict if an ASE WILL develop mint spots, and two, one would need a separate, untreated group as a control - since it is unpredictable, this would not be possible), none of my ASE's have developed milk spots. So, in reference to the OP, the milk spots likely appeared post grading. Cheers, RickO
It's average quality.
Coins can go bad in the holder due to exposure to the atmosphere, heat, humidity. This is one of the risks of numismatic investments. To realize it's original pristine value the coin will need a dip.
Yes, they are mint-issued damage/blemishing. Depending upon the circumstances, it can take varying amounts of time for the spots to become visible.
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This is the reason I no longer collect Modern 69 or 70 coins. I had a date run in NGC 69 and the key date of all coins developed milk spots.
All the above
There are different levels of perfection.
(Some coins are more perfect than others. -Animal Farm)
It has been said that one can see potentially "incipient" milk spots by illuminating the coin with a halogen flashlight. At that point they can be inhibited/removed by dipping in EZest. In the one case where I have knowledge of testing, the substance on a "white" spotted ASE was determined to be silver chloride. Hard to imagine that AgCl would dissolve in acetone. It's possible that there is more than one type of spotting, since one can see white spots and tea-colored spots.
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MS70 doesn't mean perfection. In reality, it just means less flaws than a MS69. And ideally, those flaws on a MS70 are not visible with the naked eye (or at most a 5X loupe) within a 3-7 second review. I've yet to see an MS70 slabbed coin that didn't have a flaw or imperfection on it...mint made or otherwise.
As others have said, some MS70's are "more perfect" than others. ASE's and AGE's are coins that are often bulk graded with minimum grades sought of 69/70.
@BAJJERFAN...I believe chloride is considered organic, so, prior to total manifestation, the invisible residue may be neutralized prior to the final chemical transition to the milk spot. Cheers, RickO
I no longer buy MS 70 or PF 70 silver coins of any type since the guarantees were removed.
Box of 20
Chloride is inorganic unless specifically in an organic compound. Freon and DDT would be excellent examples as would chloral hydrate aka knockout drops. Inorganic chloride would be simple table salt.
Russ posted here several times about dipping silver proof coins prior to sending them in for grading. The purpose was IIRC mostly for removing/preventing haze. I don't recall if he ever said here what he dipped them in.
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@BAJJERFAN ...Russ specifically told me (and, I am sure at one point posted here), that he gave ASE's an acetone bath upon receipt, to prevent milk spots.... and you are right, it in inorganic in certain compounds and organic in others. It moves freely in the body cells.... Cheers, RickO
Gesundheit
there was a time when PCGS would not give a 70 to an ASE because of the milk spot problem. Didn't PCGS offer a reward as to the cause of the spotting?
Canadian silver maples are even more prone to spotting. Comparison to the fabrication process of both coins might help determine cause.
Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar
I still don't get this one. I have quite a number of eagles, and I've spot check a few dozen (both proof and bullion) back to 1987, and none have milk spots. (All are either in OGP, raw or in air-tites.) Some of those in air-tites are beginning to tone around the edges, though.
Is this happening with silver quarters and halves (i.e. 90%), or just .999 ASE's? (I should spot check some of the commems next time.)
Yes, and many were there when slabbed. Problem is you need to look for them and the job is simpler using florescent light which is not recommended for grading coins. Additionally, since the guarantee on these coins is no longer in existence, some MAY be overlooked by design.
I have spoken with professional conservation service employees. True mint spots cannot be removed at this time w/o abrasion. Acetone does not work once they are formed. Laser? IDK. I have removed small spots w/o a trace. Large ones and stains are hopeless. IMO, there should be a way to reverse the chemical reaction that caused the stains.
thank you!!!... had thought came right away with the milk spots.. that makes more sense.. much appreciated.. that has to be a serious kick in rear, if looks "perfect" and 5 yrs later have them
Technically, MS70/PR70 does not mean perfection in every respect. It strictly refers to the strike and the absence of any marks (as in physical damage). So a 70 could have milk spots or toning. While grading services are less likely to grade coins with milk spots as 70, we have received 70 grades on some submissions that were already spotted.
I agree that milk spots are caused by something in the Mint's process- we've even received brand new coins directly from the Mint with spots already on them. In some cases it seems like there is a heightened problem with specific batches. For example, we haven't seen a lot of spotting problems with 2016 proof silver Eagles in general, but specifically many of the Eagles from the Limited Edition proof set have developed spots. My guess is that may have something to do with the way the Mint stored them before assembling the LE proof sets.
www.lccoins.com
A PCGS Authorized Dealer
RE: "IMO, there should be a way to reverse the chemical reaction that caused the stains."
Chemical changes, such as Ag combining with Cl to produce silver chloride, are accompanied by physical changes in molecular size and crystal structures. Even if the chemical reaction were fully reversed, the physical displacement would remain.
Anecdotal reports indicate that "milk spots" more frequently appear after a coin has been removed from it's original US Mint packaging than undisturbed coins. [Authentication companies do not maintain clean room facilities. Whatever is in the air at slabbing time can get on the coins.]
that really had to suck.. i'm glad this forum has made me aware of this potential problem now.
Not sure if anyone has this answer- is there any reference for the timeline of developing the spots?.. Ie if hasn't developed any by lets say 4 or 6 yrs,, most likely would not? Or is more random and always have the potential to develop them?
thanks!
Oh no, here we go.
"Depends on what the definition of perfection is."
I disagree 100%! A spot on a SE lowers its eye appeal. IMO, they should be judged by number, location, and severity just as PMD (bagmarks). It's is a darn shame to me that this "sham-practice" goes on and you observed the TPGS "pulling" that stunt! I say shame on them and no excuses!
I'm going to try to post a photo of two types of spots (out of several other types) that occur on SE's. In one case a tiny black impurity (struck thru) developed a reaction ring. In the other, some debris landed on the coin and caused the reaction stain around it. This is an excellent candidate for conservation. I no longer have the coin or I should have provided an "after image to prove my post.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say there is NO time limit. Under the right conditions of temperature, light, humidity, milk spots can develop. It is why PCGS halted their warranty on ASE's. They had one year where someone returned almost $1M worth and they took a big hit. For some reason, it seems to happen more to slabbed coins in both NGC and PCGS slabs, then to raw coins. But it can also happen to raw coins as well.
My story didn't turn out so bad. Even though the coins and the key date were worth basically melt, I sold them to a member here at a show when silver was over $40/oz and made a few bucks. I think he flipped them the same day and he made a few bucks as well. That was tuition for me (unlike the other thread where "tuition" is being used). If I had bought 70's, I probably would have lost money.
"A MS-70 coin shall have no post-striking defects of any kind. It shall appear exactly as it came from the dies, excepting natural toning."
Unfortunately, fast grading - done w/o magnification has left us with a large % of examples that don't hit that mark.
To piggyback on another thread.. this probably explains why ASE coins are declining in value over their "numismatic" value the last few months.. Harder to keep an assest that may develop spots and lose more value.
PCGS initially offered a $50K reward if someone could find a way to remove the spots and leave the coin in a gradable condition as in no obvious evidence of the spots having been there. This would mean no evidence of scraping or etching. I don't think they really cared about the cause.
Unless one has in depth access to the mint's production process/es or the planchet supplier's process, finding a cause could be difficult. There are videos out there of the processes, but none complete enough to predict a cause. In one video they show stacks of blanks being coated on the edge with some sort of oil before being fed into the press/es.
From doing an internet search of the issue, I came across a video where the narrator said that the Canadian coins were spotted due to borax and that one chemical method of removal was the use of "cloudy" ammonia.
A number of years ago, I was in touch with the head QC person for the U S Mint. They were aware of the issue and had been making efforts to remedy it. They had it pinned down to some sort of chloride issue. This was at the time of the Government sequestering program. She left that position for another in the Government within a few months.
Also, I believe that the spotting problem has been around since about 1921 with the re-intro of the Morgan dollar and the Peace dollar.
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http://www.pcgs.com/silver-coins-spot-policy/
PCGS Modern Silver Coin Spot Policy
When initially grading modern silver issues, PCGS will deduct for spots that are already evident.
If coins spot after they are graded by PCGS, they are not covered by the terms of the PCGS grading guarantee.
Read that again. Neither before, or after is spotting covered.
hmmm that is an interesting concept also..
"If the spots do not come out, we will still reholder you coin in its original grade. It will just be a spotted coin of that grade. [b]We anticipate that a two-tier market (spot-free and spotted) will develop, much as it has in the past 10 years or so in the U.S. generic gold market[/b]. For further information about our Restoration service, contact PCGS Customer Service after April 1, 2013 or visit the PCGS Restoration page."
If it was a commonly available coin say a 2015 ASE, wouldn't it be smart of PCGS to just reholder an unspotted 2015 ASE? Esp. if one was charging $25 for spot review?
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Years ago you posted here that in one of your mint record searches you found where they had purchased a material called butyl cellosolve. Any remembrance of quantities? Any records of purchase of hydrochloric acid in bulk quantities?
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Read the Dow Chemical
http://www.dow.com/en-us/markets-and-solutions/products/cellosolvesolvent/butylcellosolvesolvent/
BUTYL CELLOSOLVE™ Solvent
Butyl CELLOSOLVE™ Glycol Ether is a very versatile solvent with a good balance of many different properties. This product has nearly an equal balance of hydrophobic and hydrophilic characteristics, is one of our fastest evaporating glycol ethers and is compatible with a wide range of resin types.
I think I just got cancer reading that.
I'm not claiming what the definition should be, just what we see in practice. PCGS defines 70 as "Fully struck and lustrous, free of visual marks under 5X magnification." Based on what we've seen from them, "free of visual marks" does not refer to spots (milk, carbon, or whatever) or toning. PCGS appears to be almost entirely interested in the perfection of the strike and any other physical damage to the coin in consideration for the grade. From their standpoint, I can see why the would not want to consider spots and toning as part of the grade- they can develop after grading and render their grade incorrect. By making the grade only about the strike, they free themselves from liability in that respect. They simply can't guarantee the accuracy of their grade if the grade includes the absence of spots or toning since they can't predict whether or not a coin will develop spots or toning. (That's why secondary sticker attribution has developed- QA, CAC, Eagle Eye, etc. Most of us still care about eye appeal, and since the grade doesn't necessarily convey eye appeal, the market opened up for these sticker services.) I don't think it's a "stunt" or "sham-practice." I think TPGS are simply trying to navigate a difficult situation.
www.lccoins.com
A PCGS Authorized Dealer
A solution to the "milk spot" problem was identified, lightly tested, and provided to TPGs in 2011. To the best of my knowledge, none of them tested the materials and procedures recommended, nor followed-up with questions or comments. Possibly, it was more cost effective (read: too many short-term MBAs in the pot) to not guarantee anything and let collectors gripe all they wanted.
It does seem by sticking to that definition, as you said, it absolves them of the liability, which is smart.. but not sure it isn't "shameful" on some level.
BTW have bought Many coins from you and just want to say your company has been impeccable in the execution of the transactions.
"When initially grading modern silver issues, PCGS will deduct for spots that are already evident."
Lance.
Why would anyone [other than a bulk submitter of new issues] even submit stuff like that?
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The really weird thing is, is that some poor sap paid premium money for this "MS-70".
For a little historical perspective. Back around 2000(?) or 2004(?), PCGS was so plagued with milk spots developing on MS70 coins that they put a moratorium on grading ANY Silver Eagle as MS70.
That moratorium was lifted on June 28, 2007 retroactively. Meaning, if you had an ASE Graded during the moratorium that you felt was an MS70, you could resubmit if for that lofty grade.
Since no solution to the Milk Spot problem could be arrived at without destroying the coin, those coins which developed milk spots would be down graded under the grade guarantee and the submitter of the downgraded coin would be compensated at market value minus any fee's.
Usually, an offer was tendered for compensation and a downgrade OR simply compensation and PCGS keeps the coin.
The name is LEE!
See if this clarification of your post is correct as I understand it:
It appears everything is covered. The before, the after, and the after that. There is no monetary guarantee.
Apparently, I wrote this yesterday afternoon and became distracted so it was not ever posted. I expect much of this has been said - I'll check the thread tomorrow. Now I'll add this:
@BAJJERFAN asked: "Why would anyone [other than a bulk submitter of new issues] even submit stuff like that?"
You are correct, the bulk guys and many big wholesale buyers don't even look at the crap they send in. That includes vintage type coins.
As for the rest, there is an easy answer:
@lccoins said: "I don't think it's a "stunt" or "sham-practice." I think TPGS are simply trying to navigate a difficult situation."
Have you noticed that I tend to be blunt and abrasive with my opinions? You say it much better.
The situation is made difficult by the TPGS's themselves. Any competent grader can grade a SE. The graders who work that tier are definitely competent. Unfortunately, at the rate these things are "eye-balled" and pushed thru the companies virtually non-stop, is it any wonder that I should personally reject 20% to 30% of the MS-70's I see due to a hairline or two, spots in the dress, stains, a tiny hit on the letters, etc. BTW, I'm using a 7X hand lens so that's cheating.
"Based on what we've seen from them, "free of visual marks" does not refer to spots (milk, carbon, or whatever) or toning."
L&C: I'm not sure I agree with your assessment. You seem to suggest here that PCGS will generally slab a coin 70 with milk or carbon spots present at the time the coin was graded. While, in practice, it has been my experience that the nice (otherwise clean) 70 grade coin develops the milk or carbon spots AFTER receiving the 70 grade.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
CAC won't touch them (Modern plus the 70 grade). Maybe this is why.
My guess its mostly wholesalers... and the person who buys it from them.. years later ends with the spots
Sorry- I did not make the statement as clear as I should have. As I said in my previous comment, "While grading services are less likely to grade coins with milk spots as 70, we have received 70 grades on some submissions that were already spotted. "
I would not say they "will generally slab a coin 70 with milk spots." However, I've seen enough graded 70 with milk spots or toning to believe that milk spots and toning do not necessarily disqualify a coin from receiving a 70 grade. It's not common for spotted or toned coins to grade 70, but it does happen.
-Roger
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A PCGS Authorized Dealer
" It's not common for spotted or toned coins to grade 70, but it does happen."
Fair enough. I agree.
Wondercoin
Back in early 2016 I bought a Panda and an Eagle, both in PCGS holders. About nine months later both developed milk spots. It sucks for sure.
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