Revisionist thoughts about element locations on coins.

RogerB

Every group of coin variety collectors has some sort of guide that is used to show the location, position and/or orientation of design elements. By “design elements” I refer to inscriptions (including individual letters), dates/numerals, mintmarks, clash remnants and other things originating in a working die and transmitted to multiple coins during manufacture.

A common thread is that most of these guides are built on subjective criteria and parts of the design that are not fixed in relation to one another. For example, Morgan dollar varieties describe date and digit locations in relation to denticles, even though denticles are not necessarily fixed in location. Many other similar situations exist.

My heretical suggestion is this:
When revising existing variety descriptions or creating new ones, the originator should describe and make measurements only in relation to a line connecting two points that are within the central design element. This might be a portrait, shield, or wreath. For purposes of defining the position of a date or digit, this will allow all measurement to be made based on the same point of reference (the line). To do this removes most interpretation and brings these measurements closer to an objective description of the variety.

The basis for this suggestion is that nearly all US coin designs after the first decade of mint operations, were made from standard design matrices for portraits, eagles, wreaths, etc. These were the same from year-to-year even though inscriptions and dates changed location, size or orientation.

For those seeking a more modern perspective, pull out your Saint-Gaudens double eagles dated 1910 through 1933. If you look closely at different dates, it is evident that the entire date, monogram and mintmark locations “float” in relation to the central Liberty figure and rays. Thus, date and monogram position are most objectively described in relation to the rays, rather than stars.

Anyway, a little food for thought for the future.

Coinosaurus

I ran into this problem when researching star positions on No Drapery seated dimes. On these coins the stars were punched by hand and are variable in location for each obverse die. I spent a few days trying to fix their location by counting denticles and quickly went bug-eyed even with blowup photos. I ended up using the base of Liberty as a reference point. Star locations could then be measured radially.

Eventually software will do all these sorts of measurements automatically (and also do die variety attribution).

ricko

Excellent point Roger. While I do not collect by variety, I often like to review the coins I have to see if there are specific varieties. These 'floating' references can be most frustrating. I would really like to see a standard reference point(s) such as you describe. Makes it easier to see and diagram. Cheers, RickO

dcarr

@RogerB said:
For example, Morgan dollar varieties describe date and digit locations in relation to denticles, even though denticles are not necessarily fixed in location. Many other similar situations exist.

In VAM parlance, "near date" and "far date" placement varieties for Morgan Dollars are measured relative to the neck truncation, not the denticles.

But regardless, the denticles on Morgan Dollars are fixed in location for each year, relative to the portrait. All 1878 Morgan Dollars have the same denticle placement. The denticle placement was modified for 1879, but all 1879-1904 Morgan Dollars have identical denticle placement. The denticle placement was modified again for 1921. All 1921 Morgan Dollars have the same denticle placement (and the 1921 dates are also fixed in place).

1630Boston

As always, you present an interesting idea here, thanks

RogerB

It is up to the specialist organizations to decide if the ideas have value for them or for how they communicate and recruit future members.

[To me, concepts that simplify and clarify specialty interests have the greatest potential to attract new participants.]

howards

For shield nickels, east/west position of the date is commonly identified by lining it up with a vertical line in the shield.

RogerB

If a specific line, or a line that connects two stable points are used, the results of date position measurements should be repeatable.

ricko

It would be immeasurably helpful in our hobby if there were true, documented standards for evaluating details - and - grading.... Especially grading.... Cheers, RickO

RogerB

These are basic things that ANA could/should do but have not touched for decades. The abrogated their responsibility to the entire hobby by failing to be leaders in objective (or semi-objective) aspects of the hobby/business.