1922 No D Weak Reverse Lincoln Cent- An Interesting Piece
boyernumismatics
Posts: 473 ✭✭✭✭
So while going through feebay the other day on one of my favorite sellers, I noticed he posted something different- two PCI graded 1922 "Weak D" Lincoln cents. One was in a Weak D slab, and the other, which I bought, was in their "Very weak D" slab. So me and my curious self, I was wondering...what the heck is a "Very Weak D?" I find an old forum somewhere that someone had talked about this very issue, and it was concluded that the PCI "Very Weak D" is actually the die pair for 1922 No D Weak Reverse! I sniped it up, and now I own it and will likely sell it raw due to my limited time left before leaving for the military. I'll post some pictures here, and attempt to find the other forum and copy and paste some of the Die pairing information and all pertinent information regarding the issue here. PCI has done me well before, and they've done it again!
Comments
Pictures posted out of order, but I'll get back with the extra information soon
Very cool very weak D
Copied from Lincolcentresource.com
The 1922 “plain” or “no d” can be produced from four different die pairs. Die Pairs #1, #3 and #4 produce either
a “weak D” or a “No D”. Die Pair #2, which is the most desirable of the four die pairs, always produces a “No D”.
In 1922 only the Denver Mint was responsible for producing Lincoln Cents. Both Mints were busy producing
millions of Silver Dollars. No nickels, dimes, quarters, or half dollars were produced in 1922. The creation of all
four die pairs was the result of the Denver Mint running out of usable dies with thousands of cents needed to be
struck to fill their quota.
Die Pairs #1, #3 and #4 were the result of “mint grease”, which is a combination of dirt, metal, and oil, filling the
area of the mintmark. Mint grease would fill the mintmark gradually, resulting in different levels of “weakness”. It
is believed that the mint grease would fall out, then refill creating a cycle of normal D’s, broken D’s, weak D’s, and
no D’s. When looking at circulated examples of 1922 D’s, keep in mind that the mintmark could have simply be
worn from use. Die Pairs #1, #3 and #4 have “weak reverses” because they were struck with worn reverse dies.
Die Pair #2 is not believed to be the result of “mint grease”. A pair of dies that were creating 1922 D’s clashed
together. The clash resulted in damage to both the obverse and reverse die. The reverse die was badly
damaged, and replaced with a newer less worn die. The obverse die was reworked by a mint employee who
erased all traces of the D mintmark while repairing and polishing the die. The result is a worn obverse die with no
trace of a mintmark and a strong reverse die.
All 1922 weak D or No D coins fall into one of 7 categories:
1. Die Pair #1 Weak D (Weak Reverse)
2. Die Pair #1 No D (Weak Reverse)
3. Die Pair #2 No D (Strong Reverse) also called 1922 Plain
4. Die Pair #3 Weak D (Weak Reverse)
5. Die Pair #3 No D (Weak Reverse)
6. Die Pair #4 Weak D (Weak Reverse)
7. Die Pair #4 No D (Weak Reverse)
PCGS, NGC and some other grading services do not distinguish between the seven varieties above. PCGS and
NGC authenticate Die Pairs #1, #3 and #4 as either “1922 weak D” or “1922 No D weak reverse”. Die Pair #2 is
authenticated as “1922 No D strong reverse”.
ANACS does things a little bit differently. Only Die Pair #2 is given a “No D” classification. Die Pairs #1, #3 and
4 are all classified as “Weak D’s” regardless of the strength of the mintmark.
Below is an explanation of how to classify the four Die Pairs:
Die Pair #1:
• The easiest way to classify Die Pair #1 is the Jogging Die
Crack running from L in Pluribus through O in One.
However, this die crack is not always present. Also, be
aware that there exists a 1922 D variety with a straight die
crack in the same location.
• The second 2 in date is weaker than the first 2.
• The first T in Trust is more distinct than the other letters.
Furthermore, the T, U, and T in TRUST are stronger than
the R and S.
• WE is very mushy.
• Reverse is very weak, usually with no lines in the wheat ears.
• Mintmark ranges from Weak to No D.
Die Pair #2:
• Absolutely no trace of a D
• Second 2 in date is sharper than the first 2.
• All letters in TRUST are sharp.
• WE is only slightly mushy.
• L in LIBERTY butts up against the rim.
• Reverse is sharp with nice wheat lines.
Die pair #3:
• Second 2 in date is weaker than first 2.
• TRUST is weak but sharper than IN GOD WE.
• L in LIBERTY butts up against the rim.
• The reverse is slightly rotated counterclockwise
• Reverse is weak -- lower left part of O in ONE begins to
spread into the field as the die deteriotates. Reverse looks "wavy"
• Mintmark ranges from Weak to No D.
Die Pair #4
"The front of Lincoln's coat from about 4 o'clock to 5 o'clock
appears to merge into the rim whereas Dies 1-3 all have a
regular pronounced gap between the coat
and rim. This merging is responsible for Die 4's nickname,
"coattails." The reverse is noted for its weak high point detail,
similar to Die 1 and Die 3." - Andrew Vickery ANACS Grader
It is recommended that collectors invest in certified examples of “No D” varieties.
My example is a NO D, die 3, and a very nice example ready for resale
I was pleasantly surprised when it arrived and I saw what I thought I had!!
what branch will you be joining?
I got into the Air Force Academy, by the Grace of God. It was surreal when I got the notification back in February around Mardi Gras, then receiving the official certificate was icing on the cake
outstanding you are one of the few that qualify for such a posting.
The journey will have some hard time but it will be worth it in the end.
Congratulations! I used to live three miles from there. The Academy grounds are beautiful. However, it is very dry out here. Drink lots of water. That will also help you adjust to the altitude (about 6,300 feet).
Now, when you go into the Chapel, you will note that there are 17 spires on it. The official Air Force Academy joke is that the 17 spires represent the 12 Apostles and the 5 Joint Chiefs of Staff. This may or may not be true!
Now, as to the "Weak D" and "Very Weak D" cents, on one of the "Weak D" die pairs where the D was totally gone for a while the grease filling in the D slowly wore off the die, and as it did the D slowly reappeared. There is a die state where it is really hard to be sure whether it is a "No D" or a "Very Weak D." This is one of the reasons why the grading services only recognize "No D" cents from the strong reverse die pair.
@boyernumismatics... Congratulations on your academy appointment... Well done.
Interesting thread, I learned a lot here... Cheers, RickO
I'd like to add some possibly forgotten info on these coins. I'm fuzzy about the dates (pun intended) but the basic sequence of events is OK.
At the time ANACS was established, virtually any 1922 1c without a fairly visible lump under the date (weak and very weak D's) were bought, sold, traded, and certified as 1922-Plain cents BY EVERYONE. I've learned that the authenticators in DC did not like the feeling of "playing God" with these coins as they tried to be fair to the buyer, seller, and the coin itself. Some of these coins with a weak reverse had no trace of a mintmark - even under high magnification.
When ANACS moved to CO, I suspect the same thing was going on. However, the authenticators in CO - I suspect @CaptHenway had a big hand in this - did extensive research on these coins (published in the Numismatist magazine) and determined that only the coins with a strong reverse (Die #2) would be certified as 1922 Plain cents.
When that happened (both fortunately and unfortunately) the other die pairs became much less valuable and desirable.
The authenticators at INSAB and PCI tried to "salvage" some value for collectors with the other die pairs that had formerly been valuable and acceptable and used "Weak D" and "very Weak D" for these coins.
@Insider2...Actually, the research on the 1922 cents was done by Ed Fleischmann while he was Editor of Collectors Clearinghouse at Coin World, and published there. When he came out to Colorado Springs in late 1976 he became the attributor and variety expert and he continued to use his earlier work. When I came out in late 1978 he was still there and I had no reason to disagree with him, nor do I now. I did not become Senior Authenticator until Ed had a stroke in late 1981 or early 1982.
TD
Too bad the chapel is closed for renovations because it leaked worse than the roof at Walmart. It'll be closed for two years, I believe.
Good thing I don't submit to ANACS, nor would I ever. Both NGC and PCGS attribute No D to die pair 3, which is what this is. If I had time left I would surely include this in my fictional next submission to PCGS. Sadly, I don't have the time, so I have it up on my eBay ending Sunday night.
I worked at ANACS from 1978 to 1984. That was almost a third of a century ago. I have no idea what their policy is regarding these now.
You might wish to give them a call and ask them what they do.
The coin itself is so popular because of the fact that there were no other Cents coined anywhere else. It caught the fancy of collectors everywhere during a time when collecting coins was very popular.
I remember in the 1960's seeing the ads for 1922 "Plain" Cents. Of course back then nobody cared about die pairs, reverses, or any diagnostics other than there was no D.
Lots of collectors got caught up in the purchase of this storied issue. I feel sorry for the ones who paid big for the coin only to see it fade away after years of research.
It definitely has a parallel side to the 1996 Buff discovery 14/3 coin today, and the de-listing of some specimens.
I personally have always been mystified by the 22 Plain. It has a great story behind it.
Pete
1922 No D Die pair 2.
POST NUBILA PHOEBUS / AFTER CLOUDS, SUN
Love for Music / Collector of Dreck
This is actually, believe it or not, only my second 1922 cent purchase. My first was, oh, I guess over a year ago at my LCS. I just thought it was cool because it had three large Die cracks on the reverse. Let me see if I can find the picture on my Instagram page, where I sell..
I found the pictures, August 11,2015.. wow that was a long time ago.
I sold it no problem to a guy who likes to photograph neat coin setups. Is this Die 3 or 4?
Edit: has to be Die 1 because this has a strong reverse and the jogging Die crack through the O in one.
Great thread !!!.....can I get some help on this one please.
Could it be an "Event" coin that caused die pair 2 to be created ??
Is it a "massively" clashed die pair 2 ?? and struck multiple times on both sides ??.. Sandwiched / Pancake coin ??
1 - 2 - 3 - 4 ?
Were used and unused dies from 1921 P and 1921 S mint re - used and sent to Denver this year ??
REVERSE.....
R.I.P Son 1986>2020
How are you going to list it on eBay? As 1922 No D, or 1922 Very Weak D?
I don't do E-bay in any way shape or form for anything, other than buying 2 guitars about 12 years ago.
I do not know what it is...It almost looks like it's the "B" in PLURIBUS to me...I cant figure it out,
it looks like it was beat to death in the press.
R.I.P Son 1986>2020
I remember praying in the chapel that I would just survive the next week . . . . .
I also saw one of our exchange officers tuck an A-7D sideways between the chapel and Vandenberg Hall, rotate 90 degrees over the terrazzo, hit the 'burner over Mitchell Hall and disappear straight up. It was on Navy Day . . . in response to our moving his entire office out onto the terrazzo during the night.
Fun times. Memorize your 'knowledge' . . . buy a lot of batteries so you can study after lights out. Oh . . .maybe you won't have to, I needed the extra time. . . . .
Drunner
Squadron 17 / 25
It's on eBay right now at $180.50 with 6hr 27min left listed as a 1922 No D die pair 3 Weak Reverse, since it has been determined over the years that the PCI "very weak D" is the PCGS and NGC NO D die 3 weak reverse
That sounds like one hell of an event! Nowadays someone would likely get a nice little court marshal over a stunt like that.
What years were you the AFA from? There have been massive dorm renovations going on/ finishing up. I read replacing the old single pane windows was the number one priority on top of fitting new boilers and updating the bathrooms. When I visited back in April, I had a great experience, even the 60 knot gusts across the terrazzo couldn't knock me down...and that's the actual recorded speed! It was pretty insane.
The story I heard about how the 1922-D was created goes something like this:
Philadelphia shipped the dies required to coin 1922-D Cents to Denver. For some reason, more dies were needed to complete the required mintage.
When the Denver Mint requested more obverse dies, Philadelphia notified them that no more dies would be forthcoming. So the Denver Mint was stuck with trying to stretch the use of whatever dies were on hand.
Obverse 1922 dies were used way beyond their retirement, and wore down miserably in the process. The overuse resulted in one of the reverse dies (die pair #2) failing. It failed in the press and was damaged so badly that it had to be replaced.
The rework from the failure caused the unintended removal of the mintmark from the already badly overused obverse die. The resulting coins from the die pair with the new reverse never had the mintmark, as it had been abraded off before being paired.
A neat story, and one for the numismatic ages.
Pete
here is a link to the weather station at the Academy airstrip:
https://www.wunderground.com/us/co/air-force-academy/zmw:80995.10.99999
50 mph winds are not uncommon in the north end of town. I used to use this weather station because it was closer to my home that Peterson Field, and I think the strongest gust I ever saw was 88 or 89. That same day they had a gust of 103 at Fort Carson. This was just this past Winter.
Nice coin.
Honestly I like to see less of a mint mark If I'm going to buy one of these for my collection.
Just wanted to say thanks! Lol. Now I'm looking for different die cracks for the 1922. Pretty cool! I just picked up one on eBay with 3 die cracks.
USAF (Ret.) 1985 - 2005. E-4B Aircraft Maintenance Crew Chief and Contracting Officer.
My current Registry sets:
✓ Everyman Mint State Carson City Morgan Dollars (1878 – 1893)
✓ Everyman Mint State Lincoln Cents (1909 – 1958)
✓ Morgan Dollar GSA Hoard (1878 – 1891)
Here I am, wondering how he did at the Academy...
Coin Photographer.