FINALLY, OUR HOBBY WILL HAVE A TWO PRICE COIN VALUE SYSTEM
Steve
Posts: 3,312 ✭✭✭
I was very happy to read that the American Numismatic Association (ANA) and the Coin Dealer Newsletter (CDN) are collaborating so that the ANA's Numismatist magazine provides its readers with a monthly RETAIL price list of US coins which will be a "marked up" amount over the current Coin Dealer Newsletter WHOLESALE price. As I understand it, these prices will be identified by existing grade for copper coins one month, silver coins the next month and gold coins the third month. Then the cycle will repeat.
I have always thought that the hobby needs a two tier price system so that both dealers and collectors are aware of current pricing for US Coins by denomination, series, and grade. As an example, a 1909SVDB Lincoln cent in grade MS64RB has a certain WHOLESALE value which will trade among dealers. That same coin will sell to collectors from dealers at a RETAIL value which is higher than the wholesale value. That is REALITY!
What collectors need to know is what those two values are. They then need to evaluate the specific coin they are interested in buying from a dealer along with the dealer's price to determine what if any negotiation for the coin is necessary.
I believe this system can work well over time IF THE COIN VALUES ARE BASED ON CERTIFIED COINS FROM PCGS AND NGC. If the values provided by CDN and the ANA are also including RAW COINS or coins from minor grading services, then this system will NOT work. We cannot base these two values of wholesale and retail and leave the grading as on RAW coins to the opinion of the buyer (collector) and the seller (dealer).
I'd be interested in hearing the opinions of other collectors and dealers about this. Obviously, overtime, this new RETAIL pricing system will need to be accepted by other retail price reporting such as Coin World and the third party grading services pricing guides.
Steve 
Comments
Supply and demand determines pricing, not an arbitrary markup percentage. This sounds more like something the stamp market would tolerate.
I'm missing where the markup would be an arbitrary percentage?
Though I love the concept of comparing something to the stamp market/collectors as an insult.
same system as already exists
no, you don't know - it's my price
actually, you don't know - it's my price.
I thought that a good rule of thumb was "wholesale = 20% than retail"?
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Last January I had a discussion with a long time stamp dealer. It was his opinion that, when it came to retail prices for stamps, the catalog, not supply and demand, ruled. He wanted 50% of Scott for his stamps. When it came time to sell to him, however, his buy price was about 5-10% of Scott ... in trade. Unless the stamps were "keys" he generally didn't want them at all because he already had more than enough and more was coming in all the time.
case in point
How about having the prices based on ANA grading standards. You see to want to elevate PCGS and NGC as standards, when they are not.
Yawn. Auction results and eBay are the retail price.
Let's all agree that the price that a coin sells at is based on NEGOTIATION between the seller and the buyer. If the seller and the buyer are both RECGONIZED DEALERS, that negotiation will generally be around the CDN values, adjusted for the specific coin's plusses and minuses. If the seller is a dealer and the buyer is a collector, the negotiation (in theory) should be the same, but in fact is probably based also on the perceived knowledge of the buyer by the dealer and various other considerations by the dealer regarding cash flow, etc. The buyer wants to get the coin at the lowest possible cost and the seller wants to get the most possible money for the coin. That is REALITY. The numbers that CDN currently use for wholesale pricing are only their best estimate of the dealer market. The new retail pricing, if based consistently on the CDN pricing, with a judgemental mark-up would create a false retail price. For this to work correctly in my opinion, the reported retail pricing needs to represent reporting by the dealers of what their coins are selling for. CDN and the ANA needs to monitor the retail price numbers IN THE SAME WAY THEY CURRENTLY monitor the wholesale price numbers. Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
I thought this was going to be about addressing the bifurcated/bifurcating market.
We've always had wholesale and retail, though I agree auctions provide more accurate data.
The problem with price guides is that they are really useful for widgets and many collector coins are not widgets. To address differences in coins of the same grade, it could be interesting if dealers could participate in a historical sale website like a Heritage archive but where individual dealers loaded their past sales with grades and pricing.
I remember the Blue Books. I did not like them as much as the Red Books.
I dunno. For something as common and liquid as a 1909-s VDB cent, I would think retail and wholesale to be nearly the same.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
If that were true, the dealer would be selling a key Lincoln cent for about the same price he acquired the coin for. I can't believe a dealer would do something like that unless there were other issues with either the coin or the dealer..
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
There are already lots of retail price guides. I'd be more interested in a publication that provides an estimated range for the current auction market.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Most collectors and dealers currently go by grey sheet and auction results to establish essentially "retail pricing". Most dealers I've dealt with use the bid price and deduct from it to establish their buy price. Similar transactions happen all the time between dealers. The bid price is the current retail base price.
Why try to fix this with establishing two different price guides. Most buyers will try to buy at the wholesale price while sellers will try to sell at retail. In the end the retail price will be ignored and treated just like the PCGS or NGC price guide.
All we really need is just one guide that is not speculative, or wishful pricing, but showing actual past sales. Heritage does this and I applaud the effort because it does show loud and clear the market trends. As I said before, it helps to have a NON PCGS price guide because frankly its not in PCGS best interest to show falling prices in the market. JMHO.
WS
When a dealer buys a coin in back of the wholesale market listed in a the grey sheet, they are essentially buying below the wholesale market. When they sell it to you at a higher level that is the wholesale level, they are not selling it at retail. Many are confusing what is wholesale and retail pricing.
Coin Hobby pricing is already incomprehensible. Red Book prices are too high and unobtainable. ANA is rushing in where angels fear to trod.
I don't think real-world pricing information has ever been as widely available as it is today. I doubt one more guide will be of any significant consequence.
LOL, from what I have seen, price guides, gray sheets, etc. are just an indication of value. I think we all know people who purchases coins at prices that have no bearing to any of the guides. For "good" coins in top grades I have always had to overpay. Other coins went for prices I was given below the sheet that made me feel I was stealing them!
The" market makers" (out of most of our league) don't give a hoot about guides. IMO, this is just a return to the days of Red Book/Blue book. Another bell & whistle that the majority of coin collectors and accumulators will never see!
My local dealer buys back of grey sheet...mark it up and move it on is their approach, not waiting to get retail.
I have rarely paid any price that conformed to 'price guides'....I have had show dealers pull out the grey sheet and even some tried the Redbook as justification for pricing.... When buying, I normally know and understand the particular coin(s) I am looking for. Occasionally, one finds a 'special' coin - actually that is most often now for me - and I need to make a judgment call. Rarely, I have knowingly overpaid for a coin. On those few occasions, I felt it was justified. For my purposes, price guides can be applicable when there is basically no knowledge of that coin type/variety etc., by an individual... and then only to provide a basis for what will eventually be negotiated. Cheers, RickO