Removing the V.D.B.
BuffaloIronTail
Posts: 7,519 ✭✭✭✭✭
What procedure was involved in removing Brenner's initials from the Lincoln Cent?. If they were ground off, wouldn't that leave a depression where they once were? They were incuse on the dies.
I'm curious and know nothing about this procedure.
Pete
"I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
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The book Renaissance of American Coinage 1909-1915 has a detailed description plus official letters describing what was done, how and when.
Erased from the hub and new dies made.
Lance.
Chapter 3
Guess I bought the wrong book. Didn't realize till it arrived that it was the 16-21.
No matter................excellent book..........learned a lot about Mcneal and the trouble he had.
Pete
In that era the US Mint didn't waste perfectly good dies. The reverse dies had the VDB polished off the reverse die and then were put back into use to strike cents. Since the reverse dies were undated those dies that were still serviceable at the end of the year were used again in 1910. Some 1910 cents show a trace of the VDB initials that weren't completely removed from the reverse die.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Thanks for the comments. One thing I know is that Charles Barber had a great time getting those initials off.
Guess I can't blame him.
Pete
RE: " The reverse dies had the VDB polished off the reverse die and then were put back into use to strike cents."
This statement is completely false. All the VDB dies were pulled from service and destroyed. Secretary MacVeagh was paranoid about any negative publicity.
The "fairy tales" about 1910 VDB cents die hard. Shucks, I've been looking for one of them all those years.
I've seen pics in various coin publications of the 1910 cent where there is a trace or partial VDB clearly visible. If they weren't reused how do you explain this? Another example is the 1900-O/CC Morgan dollar where the mint reused reverse dies from the Carson City mint which closed in 1893 by polishing off the CC mintmark (not very well) and then stamping an O mintmark on the die. Like I said the mint didn't waste serviceable dies during that era.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Though it was not Barber's decision to make (removal of the initials) he was very vocal about the matter. It is well known Barber disliked Brenner's intrusion in Mint affairs and very much disliked the Lincoln cent.
There was no good reason for removing the initials. Most coinage of the day had the designer's initials, including Barber's surname initial. Even the ANA protested.
Sadly, Brenner's initials wouldn't be restored to the cent until 1918, after Barber's death and the replacement of Sec'y Franklin MacVeagh.
Lance.
Dr. Sol Taylor (president of the Society of Lincoln Cent Collectors and author of The Standard Guide to the Lincoln Cent) reported in 2008 that he found, 20+ years earlier, a 1910 with what he believed were traces of VDB. Coin World examined it and didn't buy it.. The markings were faint and took some imagination to "see" VDB. No photos were even a little convincing. It was the same with a few other examples that supposedly cropped up. The TPG's rejected them.
That same report also claimed that VDB was lapped off hundreds of dies and they were used temporarily, until the revised hub produced new dies. I have never heard this before. I always read that all VDB dies were destroyed, and that there was a three day lag of no production until new dies were made. But who really knows? I trust RWB's knowledge of the matter, most.
Lance.
Any photos of the 1910 "VDB" cents available? Large size photos like TrueViews would help.
D'oh!
Yea, Zoins............but that gives me the excuse to buy the first one.
Pete
I'm 95% sure that a long, long time ago (in a far off galaxy as old brains can play tricks) Bill Fivaz showed me an example he had found. He was of the opinion they existed. I either had no opinion or said I didn't see anything conclusive. Since then, I have been checking Uncirculated 1910's whenever I see one and have not found anything even close.
Is there any Mint documentation saying all the dies were pulled and destroyed?
Hmmm.I recall some old ANACS holders with 1910 cents - and stating they were VDB exampels. Or...was it just a fantasy behind too many Gin and Tonics ????
WS
Ain't going down this road. Hashed this one out ATS years ago.
I have personally seen 1909 Lincoln cents (without "VDB") that had apparent grinding on the die along the lower reverse rim. This clearly looked like a complete effacing of the "VDB" from the die.
I have seen very many of these coins also. I always thought that area of the coin was weakly struck as the rim was weak. As I sit here, that does not make a lot of sense. Nevertheless, what does make sense is that at least a few VDB dies were ground down and used in 1909 while waiting for the new reverses.
Seems any removal of a die feature in that area would result in a "bevel" in that area. I think the VDB issue was resolved early in 1909 and millions of cents were made with dies clearly without VDB. To stretch this into the next coinage year is hard to imagine. Without pictures or specimens I find the 1910 VDB a tough concept to believe in.
This is what you're referring to...you sold it to me.
That is definitely grinding and not die wear due to the direction of the pattern.
I yield to Roger's expertise as to the official record of what happened during the changeover, as he has seen the records, but human nature makes it possible that either some things were done that were not recorded, or that some things were done that were deliberately recorded falsely.
I have been lied to by the Mint more than once. Various records over the years MAY have been falsified.
As to the phantom V.D.B.'s, I have seen one coin I thought had one, but could never prove it.
Ambro's comment is correct.
Explanation:
Initials “VDB” are raised on the coin; therefore they are incuse on a working die. To remove these initials, an engraver would have to use an emery stick or other abrasive tool on a soft die and gradually remove metal from the field (or “table”) until it had been ground inward to the full depth of the VDB letters. After this work, the die would have a normal, relatively flat field, with an oval depression where the initials had been removed. When a coin was struck from this die, the result would be a normal flat field everywhere except where initials had been removed. At that spot there would be a raised oval – obvious and entirely unacceptable. In the simplest of terms, one cannot “grind off” an incuse die element without leaving a depression in the die.
As for some emergency or expedient excuse, the facts as documented tell the truth. The obvious “quick fix” was to take the prepared reverse hub, and remove the initials. Fast, cheap, easy. But Barber decided he wanted to reduce the relief of the reverse design. There was no great urgency because there was a substantial inventory of cents. He told MacVeagh this was necessary, and got approval to begin. Barber then made a new reduction without the VBD initials (which Barber had added – not Brenner) in slightly lower relief. This was the reverse for all non-VDB cents for the next several years.
One other consideration: production of new cents began in June at Philadelphia for the purpose of building a large inventory for distribution everywhere except the far West. When MacVeagh halted production in August, there was a large inventory available nationwide. (Plus remaining Indian cents.) By the time new reverse dies were put into production inventories were nearly exhausted, but no emergency existed and no reason to do anything except follow Barber’s plan.
Imagining such things as a “1910 VDB cent” is fun, but that does not make it real.
**I have personally seen 1909 Lincoln cents (without "VDB") that had apparent grinding on the die **
Roger, I worked in manufacturing for 25-30 years and your well worded, logical explanation is hard to argue with.
as for the 1909 no VDB Cents with die polish lines, it is entirely plausible that there were times when that area was polished. perhaps debris clogged the initials periodically and that was the quick fix. I have seen 1909 Cents with a very weak VDB and die polish lines. it isn't a stretch to believe that area of the Cent die needed polishing(for whatever reason) and on the 1910 coins mentioned it only takes a vivid imagination to see ghost initials.
we may all be proven wrong and 1910 coins with initials may show up --- my dad used to say "It's possible but not probable."
Roger is correct. Removing an incuse design from any die would leave the opposite, or "lump" in its' place. That's why I started this thread........I heard through the years at various different times that the initials were "ground off".
If that were the case, knowing about the lump, my question was "how did the Mint do it?".
Pete
The old idea of "grinding off the date" or mintmark or other feature that is incuse in the die, has been around a very long time. It is referred to in countless old hobby books and articles, yet very few seem to have thought through the situation. Someplace/sometime I remember seeing an early US half or dollar with a numeral sitting on a lump -- but maybe it was a dream.
For those who think "1910 VDB cents" exist, all that need be done is prove it. Otherwise, it is a negative argument which is logically impossible to prove. [It is the old dictum "Why not" is harder to prove than "Why."] Believers can easily set out experimental conditions for such a creature, then examine candidate coins to see if they fit all, some or none.
Color me a dumb...
I never thought it out before. I've been suckered all these years. Obviously, if you lower the surface of a die it will produce a raised area on the coin. The ONLY way to avoid/lessen the effect would be to polish out a very large area at both sides and above the place where the VDB was. I have never seen a "Deep Dish Reverse" variety 909 or 1910 cent. If one ever turns up, I'm going to claim the "naming rights" based on this post in 2017.
Interesting... Roger's explanation is clearly logical.... so one would have to find a 1910 cent with a raised portion to show use of such dies... I have never seen one like that. Cheers, RickO
For 1910-VDB believers to have a legitimately re-used VDB reverse die, the entire field would have had to be ground down multiple times - to the point were it had nearly all been reduced to the depth of the initials. But, this would have removed much detail, leaving only the deepest design elements and probably obliterating most of the legend. As on 1922 'No D' cents, this weakness and poor detail might be an indicator, although for different reasons.
RE: I have never seen a "Deep Dish Reverse" variety...
I think Pizza Hut has these.... ?
This is from page 14 of "The Complete Guide to Lincoln Cents" by David W. Lange. It is a reply to the order by MacVeagh to halt production of the Lincoln Cent. It hints to the suggestion that the Mint considered erasing Brenner's initials from the working hub, which would have made sense, and NOT the individual dies. Anyway, it's all history for us to contemplate.
Pete
Good info --- for when it was published --- but incomplete. See RAC 1909-1915 for details and the rest.
The book is on its way. Bought the 16-21 already. Very detailed research Roger.
Pete
I don't know where you got that idea, but it is wrong.
Here is a raw high-resolution 3D scan of a 1909 VDB Lincoln Cent reverse (one with a well-struck "V.D.B."):
Here is the same digital sculpt, with the VDB effaced by removing metal from the corresponding die without adding any metal to the die:
Tilted view, side-by-side:
There is enough curvature of the fields near the rim to allow that curvature to be altered (on the die) in such a way that the "V.D.B." disappears.
The scans/digital sculpt are of a production coin - several reproduction generations away from the original. The Mint worked with original models, reductions, master dies, hubs, etc. One cannot compare an after-the-fact sculpt with Mint reality. Further, the sculpt is a digital representation in relief (not incuse like a die), very easily manipulated, unlike a steel die, which is what those claiming 1910 VDB cents have to explain.
There's really little to disagree about. If 1910- VDB cents exist, produce the coins, kind of a numismatic habeas corpus.
I was not writing about 1910 cents. A working die is only one step away from the finished coin. I have illustrated that it would be easy to efface the "V.D.B." from a working die such that there is not much evidence of that happening. It would not be necessary to lap the entire face of the die as you had incorrectly claimed.
I thought that the V.D.B. could be "filled" with some material to "remove" the initials.
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What technique was used to alter the image in similitude to polishing the die? Whatever it was, it did not remove the blem below the M, so I am not sure if it is relevant.
TD
That is my whole point - that the VDB could be removed from a die without having to abrade the entire die face. The "V.D.B." could be removed by grinding just a little bit off the die in the area of the VDB, WITHOUT affecting other parts of the die.
The technique that I used was to first make a high-resolution 3D scan of a 1909 VDB Lincoln cent reverse.
Then bring that scan into the digital sculpting program (that I wrote myself years ago). Once imported into the program, I convert it from a "positive" (like the coin) to a "negative" (like the die that would strike the coin). Then I sculpted the area around the VDB by removing metal (just like grinding metal off of a die). No material was ever added to fill in the VDB on the die. The resulting sculpt was identical to the original except in the area of the VDB, where all the relief heights were lower (on the die) than where they started. Then it was converted back to a "positive" (like the coin) from the "negative" (die). I generated renderings of before and after, with straight-on and tilted views.
Not to bother, Mr. Carr likes to joke with people and "pull their chain" a little.
The data doesn't lie.
Thanks for all who posted. As for real proof, probably never see it. My beliefs and opinion:
The V.D.B. was effaced from either the Die or Working Hub (Most probably from the Hub. Roscos' pic of the "Gibberish" to me shows a probable dot that was not effaced.
No doubt it would have been easier to remove it from the Hub, and of course the 1911-D was Denvers' first minting of Lincoln Cents. The reverse dies could have been hanging around in the die locker from a 1909 shipment.
drwstr123 commented that staying out of it was the best course as it had been "hashed out" ATS awhile ago.
I can see why...................
Thanks again.
Pete
I don't think it's realistic to compare "digital sculpting" to what would take place with a real die being polished. I propose and experiment for Dan: produce a working die with incuse VDB, strike a few coins, remove the initials in the way it would have been done in 1909, strike a few coins and post pictures.
Tricks of the trade, man.
An accurate 3-d model with good data doesn't tell stories.
I don't disagree, my point is only that it tells the story you want it to tell. when working with hardened steel, manually lapping to achieve a desired finish is a little different with less control, even for a skilled artisan such as Dan.
An interesting suggestion. Perhaps do intermediate strikes as the V.D.B. gets weaker.
Just keep it legal within the confines of the counterfeiting laws and the Hobby Protection Act. Perhaps replace "ONE CENT" on the die with "TEST PIECE?"
Something like that is possible, when I get around to doing some fantasy-date over-strike Lincoln cents