Some guys have all the luck...
mercurydimeguy
Posts: 4,625 ✭✭✭✭
Not to break into a Rod Stewart song, but I can tell you I could have submitted this coin for 12+ years and I'd never get it into a straight graded holder. I've had much nicer coins not get straight graded...Whoever got this holdered, congrats. Granted, hind sight is always 20-20, and once a coin is in a straight graded holder, people will say "well I can see how that xyz..." and if it was in a details holder, people will say "i can see how that abc"
I'm thinking that some of the coins out there that are debatable, in terms of grade, might just be the statistically possibility of luck...no conspiracy theories, no wrong-doing, just plain ole simple luck...
DISCLAIMER: borrowed these images from eBay. I'm sorry if this coin belongs to someone here, but it is publicly searchable on eBay.
Comments
0000 Steel wool?
Die scratches?
I feel your pain...I really think it has to do with WHO send in the coin...I really do. I have heard and seen of a private collector who submitted a nice looking coin to a TPG and it received a "details" grade (cleaned). He was disappointed about it, crack and resubmit, ditto...same result...cleaned. Sold it for what he could get for it. The buyer, a well-known dealer, cracked it - submitted it and received an AU53...Cha-Ching! Some people insist that it is a luck of the draw kinda thing and that opinions change from submission to submission...but come on...I sense some bias here.
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interesting, i cant tell from here
Wow.......... thats incredulous.
They claim the graders do not know who submits the coins they grade. Sometimes it does seem otherwise. I have also felt that the other coins submitted in the package might influence a grader. You put a good one with some dogs and maybe it gets flees.
Heavily hairlined proofs get PF61, heavily hairlined UNC business strikes get bagged at PCGS. I see it all the time with proof Morgans that look similar. Might be because proof surfaces show hairlines so much easier than business strike surfaces do.
The wipe that put those lines on the 1869 half probably would not have even shown up on a business strike.
For every collector who ever got the dreaded bodybag (and still paid for the disappointment) this is just a slap in the face.
They either are or they aren't cleaned, period.
I totally agree.
Hairlined proofs get graded.
Heavily hairlines (and very lightly hairlined) business strikes get the boot, straight to the 'details' department.
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@DoubleEagle59 and @scubafuel what about the chemically altered surfaces and shiny surfaces as a result of cleaning with something physical? Forget hairlines...this coin is dipped out and buffed up (it's like glaringly obvious). All I'm saying is give it to me, let me crack it, and I can send this in for 12 years and I bet I'd never once get it straight graded. Someone else can get it straight graded on the first try, and your responses are exactly what I predicted might happen in the OP. If I posted it in a straight grade holder, some will explain why that was, if I posted it in a Details holder, everyone would explain why that was. Just human nature... That's why I was saying it's like total luck to get a coin like this into a holder, some guys have it and some guys don't
The subjective nature of grading is frustrating at times. Some hairlines might be okay on some coins while not on others. The quantity of hairlines might make the difference but I don't think anyone has ever quantified how that is determined and so there may be differing opinions. I have an unc 1849 gold dollar that has some scratches on the reverse. I keep thinking I might see if I could get a straight grade but I am not sure how tolerant the graders would be on it. So far I figure it would get a details grade.
Agree....It's because it's a proof with mirrored fields.
Fair? It's fair if they are consistent. And I'm not sure experience with hairlined business strikes necessarily applies.
I do have a couple of hairlined MS-61 Walkers, (tougher dates), that LOOK like MS-64's until you get the proper lighting. That's really the difference. Mirrored proofs will SCREAM hairlines, while more satiny MS coins won't.
The plus side is that the hairlines are really easy to see! Chances are, you won't be surprised, and if you don't like it, don't buy it.
Typically proofs and business strikes and proofs are justifiably graded differently. Where on a business strike the mint state grade is determined by regular marks like bag marks and light scratches, a proof is graded primarily based on hairlines. Why? With business strikes those kinds of marks are the results of regular handling. Hairlines typically only are present when the coin is acted upon through cleaning and wiping. That is why hairlined business strikes often get bagged. On the other hand any kind of handling at all show up on mirrored surfaces as hairlines. Besides for the picture being really bad, it appears that the coin has the hairlines of a handled (not circulated) proof. One could argue that this coin is so hairlined it should be bagged. One could also argue it should be in a PR60 holder (which is impossible to tell from the pics) and also it really changes nothing as far as value. I would be interested to see PCGS do a Proof Photograde at least for early material. It would help many understand the grading of 19th century proofs.
pcgs insiders at work on this one
Wow, IMO that's bad.
No one who looks at graded Carson City dollars should ever wonder about the inconsistencies and silliness of ....grading.
If things were RIGHT, there would be about 11 MS 64 Carson City Morgans.
He must have slipped in a tip along with the submission
I saw an "unc" rare date seated quarter finally make it into a graded holder in the past 2-3 yrs. It had been an obviously cleaned and hairlined coin from the first time I'd seen it in 1986. I never thought it would ever grade out. Took almost 30 yrs to get an official grade. Time heals most wounds.
If you had put it in a Kraft coin envelope for ten years I bet you would have made it.
Does the fact that it straight-graded make that much difference? As long as you are not purchasing sight-unseen a buyer is going to account for the hairlines in a purchase price. I could see a slight bump compared to a details holder, but it should trade at a discount.
Proofs get a little more forgiveness than business strikes as far as hairlines go. Part of that is because it takes a lot less force to create a hairline on a mirror finish coin than on a normal business strike. It's just easier to get hairlines. PCGS is pretty open about this in their policies. PCGS seems pretty open about this distinction.
Almost nobody wants PR61 coins, so it's effectively a details coin from a market perspective.
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And that holder isn't really that old so it basically just happened. Final resting place. I don't see how PCGS or collectors of PCGS graded coins would want that coin holdered in anything other than a details designation.
Human impairment and not like it's some minor deal tucked along the rim or something. Those lines are basically the entire focal point of the piece. Too bad that coin bit the dust, proof or not. So sad.
Someone edit the photo removing the holder and make it a GTG and we will see what others think
That one really surprises me....I would never even bother submitting such a coin - well, I would likely never have acquired it in the first place unless it was given to me.... such a shame, likely done by someone who thought they were doing the right thing by cleaning up a 'dirty old coin'...Cheers, RickO
The fact that the hairlines on a proof coin are easier to create is a silly reason to straight grade it. This is just another example of market grading run amuck. It's either cleaned or it's not. I've had plenty of examples of coins PCGS called "cleaned" that have zero hairlines but rather, someone didn't like the color. Where's the fairness in that?
It's either cleaned, or it's not. Period.
Another argument for computerized technical grading, IMO.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
"Period"? Is it as binary as that?
Are there not degrees or levels of it?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Of course. If a coin has been cleaned but still shows no indicators of the cleaning, it hasn't been cleaned. On the other hand if it appears scrubbed (as this coin appears to be) there's no way in hell it should ever see the inside of a straight graded slab in my opinion.