The new ICTA Anti-Counterfeiting Task Force
Greeniejr
Posts: 1,321 ✭✭✭
It is with great excitement that I share this press release regarding the new ICTA anti-counterfeiting task force. With the support of leaders from every facet of our hobby, the ACTF is attempting to organize industry resources against the scourge that is counterfeiting. Mark Stephenson represents our hosts on the task force.
On another note, at the Central States coin show we are launching our consumer patron membership drive. ICTA has existed to this day thanks to the generosity of our dealer members. With all the needs of the ACTF, ICTA is bringing forward a new category of membership called consumer patrons. A consumer patron is a collector, bullion stacker, researcher and any other member of the numismatic community who wants to support ICTA in their mission. If you are not already supporting ICTA I would strongly encourage you to visit their site and join. WWW.ICTAONLINE.ORG
Comments
Thanks for the news!
Any reason why TPGs aren't involved? Stuppler / PQ Approved seems to be the only sticker company involved so far.
S.O.S.! T.P.G.! HELP I.C.T.A. & A.C.T.F. ASAP! @ WWW.ICTAONLINE.ORG. PQ APPROVED APPROVES.
O.k. I'm sorry. Couldn't help it. Ancient Drill Sergeant nightmare thoughts overcame my better nature.
Semper Fidelis
Zoins, as I said Mark Stephenson is on the steering representing PCGS. John Schuch II is representing NGC on the steering committee as well. The two of them with potentially others to follow lead the packaging security work group for obvious reasons. Again they are just representing the TPG services on the committee. If something were to happen that needs the attention of other departments within the TPG companies, they can mobilize the appropriate people within the company.
This is just the leadership and committee structure. There are many more people who will be involved. In fact PNG just solicited all of its membership to be on a list to help local law enforcement if need be. There are people who will help with things over time but did not have the time or resources to commit at the current time to take a leadership role. Just because someone or some company is not listed, does not mean they are not making a contribution.
It seems to be a concerted effort developing to police the hobby.... Cheers, RickO
OK, it looks like this is now being taken seriously. The approach looks to be well thought out and quite broad in scope. I thank the all-star cast for stepping up with their knowledge and time. Let's hope the follow through is as impressive as the plan.
Joseph J. Singleton - First Superintendent of the U.S. Branch Mint in Dahlonega Georgia
Findley Ridge Collection
About Findley Ridge
Would like to know that part of ACTF's mission will be to lean on eBay's lax attitude toward sellers of counterfeit coins. The organization needs a specific task force to monitor eBay's corrupt complicity.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
This, plus I'd like to see them change their mission statement on their site. I see no emphasis on the web page regarding counterfeits. Hope that comes with time.
bob
Don't forget AliExpress!
eBay is a symptom that would be really expensive to deal with directly and probability of success low. We have been able to get the ear of the secret service and other law enforcement agencies. they have the resources to not only deal with eBay but also the people manufacturing and distributing the fakes. Fighting eBay directly would be like giving pain killers to treat a headache caused by a brain tumor. you may feel better but the thing that will kill you is still there. until you cut the tumor out can you start really fixing things.
Yes eBay will be addressed just not in a 1 on 1 sense
Is there a distinction here between 'contemporary' (and thus collectible) circulating counterfeits versus 'forgery' (modern) counterfeits meant to deceive collectors?
This is precisely the reason there is an academic/research group. Most of the time law enforcement deals in black and white, is this real or is this counterfeit, in coins there are desirable counterfeits that have transcended their status. Omegas, micro o Morgan's and the like are very collectible. that is why we have the academics who can say these are items of significance not mass produced stuff. This branch is also important so we don't make mistakes like eBay who bans all Cuba items including pre-embargo. we are doing this smart
do they have a hot line to ebay for a quick removal of bogus items?
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Probably not. While these listings are a major problem, it would be a big distraction from the major aims of the task force. The task force aims to root out the problem by working with law enforcement and dealers to get the producers and distributors. Without eBay's active participation, what you are asking for can't exist. As it has been said in the past, our industry is small time to them.
If you track bogus listings we would love to have any or all information about the item, the seller and serial numbers of fake slabs. There already is a very active community of people monitoring for problem listings who do an admirable job protecting others. Now that we have the government's ear, we are trying to go at this at the most macro level possible. It will also be much easier to get eBay to listen when it is the Secret Service asking questions, not just us.
ICTA and SS is on our side, folks. Fake is what took the most enjoyable part of our hobby from us. It's no fun dealing with that stuff, ever. And the ignorant get stuck with the lot unless and until we each do our part to rid society of such. Call the authorities if you find it. Eradicate the _____. I may delete this after my jets cool down.
Why would the person on the "Hotline" believe some random caller. The caller could be wrong. The caller could be competition. The caller may have got mad at the seller on a coin forum.
This is a great endeavour and very good to have an organization which finds and removes Forgeries from the Bay and other places.
would it help if every collector would write to their respective Gov rep complaining about nothing being done by the Gov to prosecute possession of fakes?
My top question for this sis:
How would such an organization be absolutely sure that the item they want to have removed are "authentic" forgeries?
My second question is:
Why is the Gov not backing such venture?
It would be as simple as 1,2,3. Just add another question to the Cutoms card coming in to the USA, like: did you aquire any US collectors coins while out of the Country?
and my 3rd question is
there is very dangerous downside also: who would decide an item to be a forgery as usually you do seldom have "coin in Hand" and " most collectors do not have a authentic coin or very detailed images to compare..
I have a personal story which at this time I can not tell as the issue might end up in litigation.
It will be hopefully only a matter of days and I will be able to tell. It will be interesting.
As I said, this task force is really going to have nothing to do with directly dealing with the problems with eBay. Clearly if the ACTF is successful, the eBay problem will be diminished as fewer counterfeits are available and more people are facing penalties for distributing them.
@YQQ to answer your questions:
1. See above.
2. Getting government funding for anything right now is next to impossible. You could have a funding request with congress for $5 to save puppies from burning trees and even with a financial offset for the $5 it wouldn't get past. The ACTF is only a few months old and is still getting fully organized. We will be working with the government on this. There may be funds available in the future but right now, we have to rely on the numismatic community.
3. Any help would be appreciated. We would also love to have you as a consumer patron. Remember it was only a year or two ago that we were able to get the new hobby protection act passed that allows better prosecution of people selling fakes. Remember, there is a distinction between possessing and trying to sell a counterfeit. Pretty much all old time dealers have their black book or black cabinet of reminders of mistakes they made. It also helps them with future research. These should not be messed with.
Because the ICTA anti-counterfeiting task force is not some random caller. If ebay is aware of their efforts then there is no reason ebay should welcome their help. Ebay should also institute a hotline with the major TPGs to quickly remove bogus slabs.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
derryb,
that would be THE day when Feebay will do anything to reduce the bottom line!
I wish I could talk about my case and let you guys know a situation.
All I can say right now is this: if it is not settled with the next 3 days, it will go to litigation
BUT, it is in Canada and does ever so close fit the efforts here.
If I decide ( depending on the other side) not to go legal, I will write and tell the whole story.
Am very curious as to why the whole subject was dropped like a hot potato!???
Actually, I know some authenticator's are on the task force.
@Hydrant said: "Couldn't help it. Ancient Drill Sergeant nightmare thoughts overcame my better nature. Semper Fidelis."
Are you a former active duty Marine? Yeah, I know once a Marine... Semper Fidelis back at you.
"ICTA created the Anti-Counterfeiting Task Force in January and named Beth Deisher as its director. ACTF’s mission is to mobilize law-enforcement resources to protect the integrity of U.S. and world coinage by educating officials on the economic impact and growing threat of counterfeit circulating, collectible, and bullion coins."
Holy Cow. First of all, good luck to "Beth Deisher'.
Second of all, "ICTA’s Anti-Counterfeiting Task Force gets underway with steering committee and work groups"
Steering Committee and work groups.
Ya got your ICTA and ACTF.
LOLOLOLOL
AFAIK, there was a time when folks at the TPGS's would be assigned to monitor Ebay and check on reports. Then Ebay phased out their input.
The TPGS folks who have volunteered to help the task force can probably ID at least 90% of the usual crap from an enlarged, sharp photo. It should be virtually impossible to detect one of the very deceptive C/F's in this way unless you gave made images of any diagnostics such as repeating marks. At least two major TPGS and probably all of them make images of C/F's for their internal records.
Roll eyes. How do you think the ANA's Certification Service was started? Oh, perhaps that was a little before your time. Well now you have been informed.
If you think the ICTA and ACTF steering committee will make any difference in the current way of conducting coin business, you are in fantasy land.
Like China fake coin industry is going to listen to the ICTA and ACTF.
Yep. ANA's cert service. Standard of the Industry.
It's a joke and I did get the punch line: steering committee
That does not change either of our posts.
There was an attempt by the ANA to standardize grading in the industry by taking an authentication service developed by a committee and adding a grading evaluation soon after the ANA Grading Guide was published. Many important numismatists were involved in this addition. It has been said that most of them were not "big-time" market maker dealers. People like James Halperin were not involved and had their own grading company using more accepted "real world" commercial standards. Virtually no one except collectors were happy with ANA grading. That resulted in a bunch of dealers forming their own TPGS out west. When graders there became unhappy or at the least wanted a slice of the pie, another TPGS was established in the east.
No one is going to regulate the Chinese. What ITCA can do is bring a group of concerned professional authenticators together to disseminate information. Hopefully there will be funds to publish a n=report like what was done in Europe. Surly a knowledgeable poster as yourself has heard of the IBSCC? So I don't need to explain the how and why they were established or what they do for us.
I know all the players, if not what's happened in the last few months. From direct conversations with ICTA counsel and lobbyist Hon, Jimmy Hayes, HRH, JA, Mark Salzberg, PNG and ANA Presidents and Board Members, and none of this is late-breaking news, there is no practical way to stop the physical flow of fakes.
Maybe a "steering committee" is, as we type, measuring buying or re-engineering other image-oriented tracking technology.
This is the most horizontally and vertically coherent pro-active work the industry has seen. Ex-Congressman Hayes has worked with some key Congressional committee members on pro-active measures for coin/bullion consumer protection. Can you say "Form 1099"?
More information will be collected, curated and disseminated.
Just a thought..... Pirated CD's represent billions of dollars in annual fraud.
Thank you, Lamar
IMO, No committee will be effective perusing this cause unless it has a lot and powerful political clout.
There can be a easy and effective way to reduce that very "strong current" of fakes into the country drastically! it needs to be started at some time. Procrastination does not help. We can all complain as much as we want, it does not help unless the GOV. does its share and provides the required teeth for the laws to be enforced.
here is my take on it:
1 I assume ( and you know what a ss u me can mean) that most fakes come from the Orient.
2 have a question asked by the border guards: did you knowingly acquire any coins or currency, authentic or not, while out of the country?
3 this question can also be on the entry card everyone has to fill out. Now it becomes a document with a signature.
4 if you do not answer truthfully, be prepared to get a heavy fine and hence a criminal record
5 Lobby your Government representative for stricter laws and heavy fines **for possession of forgeries **and have the law enforced by judges. No excuse like: I am a collector. if it is illegal to possess, it is illegal. Period.
6 Canada does have a similar law in place. Unfortunately, it is NOT being enforced to a level it should be.
sorry for the rant
Great news, they can start with this one, yes a common date counterfeit trying to slip through.
I could take a better image with a 7 year old flip phone blindfolded.
The 2 says it all. Please don't ask the seller any silly questions regarding authenticity, it's been annilized by a coin dealer that's been in business for 30 years
ebay.com/itm/1882-cc-morgan-silver-dollar-xf-/112448957600?hash=item1a2e7aeca0:g:cX0AAOSwdjNZC6Uv