Here's one of the finest No Motto seated halves in existence. 1862 NGC MS67 CAC. I owned the coin for 9 years so I'm quite familiar with it and how it stacks up with the other dozen or so type coins in this grade. There is "obvious" friction on the knee and breast not to mention an easy graze across her cheek. It can't be denied. By the definitions posted above, this is an AU58 coin. I think I've only seen one or two MS seated halves without any high point friction. The ex-Knoxville MS68 1854-0 half comes to mind. Though even if that had perfect un-frictioned high points....the luster was slightly muted by the toning. Cannot ever recall seeing a MS65/66/67 seated dollar without friction on the high points.
I'm fine with a ZERO RUB/FRICTION policy....as long as it's consistently applied...and the price guides account for it. Just be ready to enlarge the AU range by the 99% of currently UNC graded seated/bust halves/dollars soon to become AU58's. We would need AU58.0, 58.1, 58.2, 58.3, 58.4, 58.5, 58.6, 58.7, 58.8, 58.9 to tell them apart....essentially shifting the entire mint state grading range into AU58. The AU 58 range would then have to cover a pricing spread of approx 10X to 50X. That would be "fun." Pricing wouldn't change....only the grades assigned.
Maybe a true UNC 71-CC, but the coin has way too many hairlines to be a 64. Perhaps it should be a 62, which in perspective would make the 58 you posted more respectable?
I'll never forget viewing this beauty at the auction preview. I remember thinking Wow! an amazing coin after viewing her. A truly magnificent example with peripheral toning and tremendous eye-appeal. Although she does have a few light lines in the right obverse field if I remember correctly the many die polish lines stand out in the proof-like fields. I graded her 64 and PCGS agreed, she's the finest example graded by PCGS, by 3 points. Any numismatist would be extremely proud to add this coin to their collection. Bruce would you consider an extended payment plan?
@roadrunner said:
Here's one of the finest No Motto seated halves in existence. 1862 NGC MS67 CAC. I owned the coin for 9 years so I'm quite familiar with it and how it stacks up with the other dozen or so type coins in this grade. There is "obvious" friction on the knee and breast not to mention an easy graze across her cheek. It can't be denied. By the definitions posted above, this is an AU58 coin. I think I've only seen one or two MS seated halves without any high point friction. The ex-Knoxville MS68 1854-0 half comes to mind. Though even if that had perfect un-frictioned high points....the luster was slightly muted by the toning. Cannot ever recall seeing a MS65/66/67 seated dollar without friction on the high points.
I'm fine with a ZERO RUB/FRICTION policy....as long as it's consistently applied...and the price guides account for it. Just be ready to enlarge the AU range by the 99% of currently UNC graded seated/bust halves/dollars soon to become AU58's. We would need AU58.0, 58.1, 58.2, 58.3, 58.4, 58.5, 58.6, 58.7, 58.8, 58.9 to tell them apart....essentially shifting the entire mint state grading range into AU58. The AU 58 range would then have to cover a pricing spread of approx 10X to 50X. That would be "fun." Pricing wouldn't change....only the grades assigned.
Excellent post @roadrunner. I should like to meet you and Tradedollarnut.
When grading got connected to value - the jig was up. That's why we have gradeflation (AU's are now MS).
Most experienced professionals know how to grade. Show them the OP's coin and they will whisper, AU BUT...
We would not need to change anything if coins were graded BY EVERYONE for what they actually are, and just about any professional dealer, auction house, TPGS could do it. We all sell and grade sliders as Mint State - well not sliders (they have too much obvious rub) just coins that really are not strictly MS. Then they could grade a coin AU-55 - finest known and price it as an MS-64 or whatever at $103.0000!
Problems:
That's never going to happen.
In some series, Capped Bust halves - True MS coins with no loss of luster from rub hardly exist!
Some great posts by several knowledgeable numismatists.
I'm not sure that problem #3 is true for the LSD series because I actually see more collector demand for the EF & AU grade ranges than the MS grades. Perhaps that's simple due to cost, but I agree it's true for many other series.
Here's an 1860-0 MS66 quarter that I turned down at $4K back in 1984. I was a stickler for zero rub back then. And black high points as often seen on the cheek of CBH's were a no-go imo. The dealer was miffed that I sent it back...and maybe rightfully so. I was willing to buy every gem "O" mint 25c that popped up for $5K or less. I just couldn't find them with zero rub, full luster, and minimal marks....bought 2 in 4 years of looking. I think this coin would have TPG graded MS64 in 1989. The planchet flaw/squiggle thing in the reverse field is another issue too. In any case, the joke was on me. Today all that stuff that concerned me almost 30 yrs ago is no longer of concern. As a MS66 CAC this is probably the "finest graded" 1860-0 quarter...ex-Gene Gardner. I'm somewhat surprised it stickered though. And yet, CAC won't sticker the PCGS MS65 1858-0 quarter which I think blows this one away (they didn't sticker it as a 64+ either when Gene first bought it). Now that one I did buy 30 years ago for under $5K (zero rub, incredibly full luster).
Obviously, you have been around the block at "Park Place" while many us hang out just around the corner of "Go."
I've passed on a few rare tokens that were hairlined from a light cleaning decades ago. Your post made me remember them and "cry" (LOL) as they are virtually never found it lustrous Uncirculated! It was my choice.
I think you too were satisfied with the choice not to buy that coin at one time based on your own personal standards. No one could have guessed the changes that would come down the road. The important thing for us as collectors is to know how the game is played. Then hold our nose and buy the coin.
These types of coins show that the "AU" vs. "UNC." (MS) arbitrary line argument are no longer valid.
I have long been a proponent of dropping the "MS" or "AU".
Just throw a number on the slab and be done with it.
If you think it's "unc" fine, if you don't, fine too.
It just boils down to price paid anyway.
Always has and always will.
The buyers will decide where it really falls.
Thus would give the TPGs the freedom to call the technical 58 that looks like a 4+ at arm's length a 64 and not have people arguing if it's unc or not. (They have been doing this for years anyway as we all know so why hide behind the charade of the "mint state line".)
Because , really, there's no "unc.", No "AU."
It's just what are you willing to pay.
In the long run what does it really matter if a beautiful coin has a hint of rub?
It doesn't matter.
We have just all been conditioned to think that the "AU" coin should be worth less.
When that mindset is shed, the market can go to where it's been going all along anyway.
And then all the "liners" can officially come out of the closet.
They're almost out now...so why not?
These types of coins show that the "AU" vs. "UNC." (MS) arbitrary line argument are no longer valid.
I have long been a proponent of dropping the "MS" or "AU".
Just throw a number on the slab and be done with it.
If you think it's "unc" fine, if you don't, fine too.
It just boils down to price paid anyway.
Always has and always will.
The buyers will decide where it really falls.
Thus would give the TPGs the freedom to call the technical 58 that looks like a 4+ at arm's length a 64 and not have people arguing if it's unc or not. (They have been doing this for years anyway as we all know so why hide behind the charade of the "mint state line".)
Because , really, there's no "unc.", No "AU."
It's just what are you willing to pay.
In the long run what does it really matter if a beautiful coin has a hint of rub?
It doesn't matter.
We have just all been conditioned to think that the "AU" coin should be worth less.
When that mindset is shed, the market can go to where it's been going all along anyway.
And then all the "liners" can officially come out of the closet.
They're almost out now...so why not?
If a coin appears to be AU, it should be labeled/graded as such. And that’s regardless of whether it’s more desirable and/or valuable than an unc. Let the market decide the rest.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Call the coin what it obviously is - only a damn fool grades a coin at armes length so let them get screwed - and let the price determin the rest. Folks have been paying $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for XF/AU coins for decades. Call the AU and you'll eliminate all the whiners such as myself.
Here is the thing I discovered forty years ago. When we can call all the AU coins we see MS-something (take Capped Bust half dollars) what do we call the true MS coins that are out there?
A strict interpretation of a coin's condition FOREVER eliminates "gradeflation," and adds the precicison LACKING today when the same coin is graded AU on time and MS the next.
Grading a coin is child's play. "Market grading" as done by dealers and TPGS often takes a lifetime. We all know the names of the folks who are the best at it.
PS There is a reason lots of coins are graded by eye alone and florescent light is not allowed! Think about it while holding that coin at arms length.
Comments
Here's one of the finest No Motto seated halves in existence. 1862 NGC MS67 CAC. I owned the coin for 9 years so I'm quite familiar with it and how it stacks up with the other dozen or so type coins in this grade. There is "obvious" friction on the knee and breast not to mention an easy graze across her cheek. It can't be denied. By the definitions posted above, this is an AU58 coin. I think I've only seen one or two MS seated halves without any high point friction. The ex-Knoxville MS68 1854-0 half comes to mind. Though even if that had perfect un-frictioned high points....the luster was slightly muted by the toning. Cannot ever recall seeing a MS65/66/67 seated dollar without friction on the high points.
https://coins.ha.com/itm/seated-half-dollars/half-dollars/1862-50c-ms67-ngc-cac/a/1184-4274.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515.....the enlarged slab photos shows the rubs/friction more easily.
I'm fine with a ZERO RUB/FRICTION policy....as long as it's consistently applied...and the price guides account for it. Just be ready to enlarge the AU range by the 99% of currently UNC graded seated/bust halves/dollars soon to become AU58's. We would need AU58.0, 58.1, 58.2, 58.3, 58.4, 58.5, 58.6, 58.7, 58.8, 58.9 to tell them apart....essentially shifting the entire mint state grading range into AU58. The AU 58 range would then have to cover a pricing spread of approx 10X to 50X. That would be "fun." Pricing wouldn't change....only the grades assigned.
It has wear on the legs, hair, drapery, feathers, and reverse motto
A true unc 71-CC
Maybe a true UNC 71-CC, but the coin has way too many hairlines to be a 64. Perhaps it should be a 62, which in perspective would make the 58 you posted more respectable?
OINK
I'll never forget viewing this beauty at the auction preview. I remember thinking Wow! an amazing coin after viewing her. A truly magnificent example with peripheral toning and tremendous eye-appeal. Although she does have a few light lines in the right obverse field if I remember correctly the many die polish lines stand out in the proof-like fields. I graded her 64 and PCGS agreed, she's the finest example graded by PCGS, by 3 points. Any numismatist would be extremely proud to add this coin to their collection. Bruce would you consider an extended payment plan?
Excellent post @roadrunner. I should like to meet you and Tradedollarnut.
When grading got connected to value - the jig was up. That's why we have gradeflation (AU's are now MS).
Most experienced professionals know how to grade. Show them the OP's coin and they will whisper, AU BUT...
We would not need to change anything if coins were graded BY EVERYONE for what they actually are, and just about any professional dealer, auction house, TPGS could do it. We all sell and grade sliders as Mint State - well not sliders (they have too much obvious rub) just coins that really are not strictly MS. Then they could grade a coin AU-55 - finest known and price it as an MS-64 or whatever at $103.0000!
Problems:
Some great posts by several knowledgeable numismatists.
I'm not sure that problem #3 is true for the LSD series because I actually see more collector demand for the EF & AU grade ranges than the MS grades. Perhaps that's simple due to cost, but I agree it's true for many other series.
Here's an 1860-0 MS66 quarter that I turned down at $4K back in 1984. I was a stickler for zero rub back then. And black high points as often seen on the cheek of CBH's were a no-go imo. The dealer was miffed that I sent it back...and maybe rightfully so. I was willing to buy every gem "O" mint 25c that popped up for $5K or less. I just couldn't find them with zero rub, full luster, and minimal marks....bought 2 in 4 years of looking. I think this coin would have TPG graded MS64 in 1989. The planchet flaw/squiggle thing in the reverse field is another issue too. In any case, the joke was on me. Today all that stuff that concerned me almost 30 yrs ago is no longer of concern. As a MS66 CAC this is probably the "finest graded" 1860-0 quarter...ex-Gene Gardner. I'm somewhat surprised it stickered though. And yet, CAC won't sticker the PCGS MS65 1858-0 quarter which I think blows this one away (they didn't sticker it as a 64+ either when Gene first bought it). Now that one I did buy 30 years ago for under $5K (zero rub, incredibly full luster).
https://coins.ha.com/itm/seated-quarters/quarters-and-twenty-cents/1860-o-25c-ms66-pcgs-cac-briggs-2-b/a/1214-98371.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515
Ouch! That's an excellent example, I love the toning.
Obviously, you have been around the block at "Park Place" while many us hang out just around the corner of "Go."
I've passed on a few rare tokens that were hairlined from a light cleaning decades ago. Your post made me remember them and "cry" (LOL) as they are virtually never found it lustrous Uncirculated! It was my choice.
I think you too were satisfied with the choice not to buy that coin at one time based on your own personal standards. No one could have guessed the changes that would come down the road. The important thing for us as collectors is to know how the game is played. Then hold our nose and buy the coin.
This coin looks like an au58, walks like an au58, and quacks like an au58.
and so..
.. it is an au58.
a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
.
OLD THREAD
these seem to be better to make an assessment of 58 vs 61/62.
the overexposed views have their benefits but also limitations for MANY coins. you may desire to view the large images yourself.
very informative discussion in this thread.
Cabinet Friction... An old school term that was used when I was younger on the East Coast.
The amou t of rub/friction that make a coin AU64 or MS58
The kind of coins one just loves to stack.
These types of coins show that the "AU" vs. "UNC." (MS) arbitrary line argument are no longer valid.
I have long been a proponent of dropping the "MS" or "AU".
Just throw a number on the slab and be done with it.
If you think it's "unc" fine, if you don't, fine too.
It just boils down to price paid anyway.
Always has and always will.
The buyers will decide where it really falls.
Thus would give the TPGs the freedom to call the technical 58 that looks like a 4+ at arm's length a 64 and not have people arguing if it's unc or not. (They have been doing this for years anyway as we all know so why hide behind the charade of the "mint state line".)
Because , really, there's no "unc.", No "AU."
It's just what are you willing to pay.
In the long run what does it really matter if a beautiful coin has a hint of rub?
It doesn't matter.
We have just all been conditioned to think that the "AU" coin should be worth less.
When that mindset is shed, the market can go to where it's been going all along anyway.
And then all the "liners" can officially come out of the closet.
They're almost out now...so why not?
_We all forget "market grading" _
_That Heritage picture shows, enlarged, a nice unc coin. _
…> @mannie gray said:
If a coin appears to be AU, it should be labeled/graded as such. And that’s regardless of whether it’s more desirable and/or valuable than an unc. Let the market decide the rest.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If a silver dollar counterstamped with a 'D' can still merit a grade of Proof 65, who can argue with this coin going ms?
Call the coin what it obviously is - only a damn fool grades a coin at armes length so let them get screwed - and let the price determin the rest. Folks have been paying $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for XF/AU coins for decades. Call the AU and you'll eliminate all the whiners such as myself.
Here is the thing I discovered forty years ago. When we can call all the AU coins we see MS-something (take Capped Bust half dollars) what do we call the true MS coins that are out there?
A strict interpretation of a coin's condition FOREVER eliminates "gradeflation," and adds the precicison LACKING today when the same coin is graded AU on time and MS the next.
Grading a coin is child's play. "Market grading" as done by dealers and TPGS often takes a lifetime. We all know the names of the folks who are the best at it.
PS There is a reason lots of coins are graded by eye alone and florescent light is not allowed! Think about it while holding that coin at arms length.