When should you bid in a Heritage auction?
airplanenut
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To me, bidding on eBay seems pretty easy: snipe. The downside is that tie goes to the first bidder, so you can lose if you tie exactly. On the other hand, if you know your top bid, you benefit by reducing the odds of someone bidding you up during the course of the auction and may stave off a bidding war. Because the auction ends at a fixed time, as long as you beat the buzzer, you can have the last word.
Today I was thinking about how this applies to a Heritage auction. Since there is no true end time (any bid opens the door for another bid), a true snipe isn't possible. At best, you can beat anyone who isn't following live. The upside of bidding early is that you win in the case of a tie, and you don't have to worry about forgetting to bid. You do run the risk of someone seeing extra competition and having more time to contemplate placing just one more bid. If you wait until the live bidding session, the main benefit I see is that if the bid comes right around your max, you get a single chance to place a cut bid if the increment is strong.
So what say you? Bid early and forget about it? Bid live? Split the difference and place a bid shortly before the online bidding ends?
Comments
Never.
I like bidding live, but to me it is more interactive that way. It's kind of like I'm there, but in the comforts of my own home. I can also see which coins get the most attention as far as bidding goes.
Less important coins I bid within 24 hours of the close. Better stuff I try to sneak in a quick cut bid and go from there if the coin warrants further bidding.
There's some fun to clicking and winning that you miss with an advance bid.
Also, a more practical matter, if there is more than one item on my list, my success or failure on the earlier lot may dictate my behavior on the next.
Typically I prefer to bid live, though I have placed advance bids on foreign auctions where the time of day didn't work or where the live bidding software was cumbersome or not mobile device friendly.
For coins over a certain amount, I believe it's $1,000, bidding increments go to $100. There may point in time to bid early knowing that the next increment puts it over what most will bid. I've won a couple of nice $20's this way.
It depends on how bad you want it and if you set a max bid, you stick too it.
If it's a coin I want, then never bid on it! For me, it's a mix bag. I bid all over. Usually like to do live though.
Do not prebid. Bid in person or on heritage live.
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If it's material that I really want and I'm willing to pay more then it's probably likely worth, I would bid live just to stay in the game and evaluate others wanting it as well. If it's something I like, but could go without, then I'd bid with a max, if I was not going to be around when it fires off.
Personally speaking, NEVER. I'm not smart enough to cut through all the fog. As for everyone else, be my guest. Have at it. Good luck!
Proxy bidding.
Lance.
Live and proxy bidding are most effective if you want to win a lot.
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For the record, I believe that Heritage is a little too quick to close an auction. I have been bidding for many years and still get caught flatfooted occasionally when considering a larger bid on a pricier coin. Shame on me I suppose for not sticking to a predetermined max, but it is the consignor that suffers when a $7000 coin is tendered in 15 seconds.
Advantage is always to the Live Bidder. Nuke bids often work on eBay, but not as likely on a Heritage auction. Actually, I enjoy both formats. I have become so accustomed at online bidding that I still bid online while at an auction live. But I do have a paddle in case my internet connection fails.
OINK
Early and often
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The main frustrating thing from me regarding Heritage is that typically there are only a few lots I'm interested in and it's impossible to know exactly when they will close so I'm often waiting through many lots I'm not interested in. With eBay, I know exactly when the items I'm interested in will close.
Bidding live can be treacherous when things are moving fast.
I've clicked on a bid but wound up bidding on the next bid increment up.
Never.
Huh? - This comment I don't understand. Everything I have added to my collection over the past 18 months has been via the auction route as I can't find anything in my collecting area in dealers' inventory.
Anyway, I use different approaches. If it's something I would like to have at my price, I proxy bid the day of the auction and let it play out. If I win, great - if I don't, no big deal. If it's a "nice to have" but I don't want to stretch, I'll bid live. If it's a "must have", then I arrange ahead of time for phone bidding with the auction house. That way, the auctioneer doesn't close the lot before I'm done. Just in case the phones don't work, I still have live bidding as a backup.
Member ANA, SPMC, SCNA, FUN, CONECA
I have debated this issue back and forth with myself. If the auction is honest and your bid is truly secret, there should be no reason not to place your maximum price early on, except that it might encourage a bidding war before the auction.
I wonder if there really are people who bid simply because other people are bidding? Are there who are so poorly informed that they start bidding simply because others have put up bids?
I know this is true in club auctions because I have seen it. At one time there were a few people who bid every time I did. The was if I was bidding, it had to good. This was not no my ego talking; one of them told me that.
I know that one item I have was won because I placed my maxium bid on the book before the auction. My bid tied the max that a poxy bidder had been sent to execute on the floor. My bid was first so I got the lot, and very good lot as it turned out because it is tied for the finest graded of a historically significant southern mint coin.
I don't worry to much about timing as I decide what to pay and bid early, since I am not selling right away if ever, paying a touch more is not an issue. So simple, if I know I will only pay X for a lot and not higher, I put that bid in and forget about it. This is for nice coins but I know there are more out there so no worries if I don't win. Something like this:
If I really want the coin really bad, something that won't pass my way again ever, then I put in a nuclear bid and be there for the live auction - many times after submitting the nuclear bid I then spend alot of time determining value, and many times I will be willing to go a few more increments. But that is for the truly special rare coins, something like this:
Well, I'm not a pro/dealer/frequent bidder so take this however you want it, but now that I'm part time I do pay more attention to, and use more, Heritage (and Stacks, Goldbergs, and now some non-US sites).
I've lived too many places where my internet connection is not always speedy or reliable so if it's a 'I reaallllyyy want this coin' type of situation I have started using the proxy bid. Don't want to rely on an internet connection if it's too good of a coin. On the other hand, rumors would have one believe that the publicly seen 'pre-bids' will encourage things like owners declaring reserves, shills, and even just attract activity (as mentioned above '--bidding because you can see others are). I might watch a live auction but I disable the bidding button to prevent mishaps (cats walking across the keyboard, adrenaline that sort of thing).
Anyway, live-proxy lets you place a bid early, but it's not seen publicly, and takes away the worry of internet connectivity. Plus it leaves less time for 'nefarious' activity if you are inclined to believe it exists.
The question I have seen raised is whether or not an auction house itself might be unscrupulous. I sincerely doubt Heritage would do that.
Somebody on the world forum side was bemoaning how the auction house (Heritage in this case) and dealers were running him up on a couple coins until I couldn't stand it anymore and broke privacy and let him know that I was his direct under/over bidder on several of them. It seemed hard for him to get that it was a collector and not a dealer or the auction house working against him. I've gotten a few sideways comments later about him paying more than a coin was worth.
It's tougher with the non-US auctions/smaller auction houses. Can I be sure there isn't a run-up on my bids? Nope, except I so often get things for reasonably under my max. Not always and there have been a few I'm a bit suspicious of. BUT, I'm not interested or able to stay up to 2-3 in the morning when I do have work and need to get up at 6 for a long day that I need to be alert for. Win or lose it's not like I'd fall asleep immediately afterward and I can't afford the sleep disruption.
Interestingly, I recently placed a larger bid vs. the start price on a weirdo coin and got an email from the auction house to make sure I hadn't added a zero by mistake. UGH. Their estimate was low, but my bid was high. It's a company where I watched a coin live once and it paused at a reasonable level and then did rise to my max. Not on all my bids by any stretch, but it was on one I happened to watch. If this coin does the same (and I KNOW they aren't expecting it to go that high) well, then I will be well and truly tipped off. Once is 'it could happen', twice --and with THIS coin--um, no way.**edited to add, funny running into this comment. The coin I did a super-nuclear bid on at the non-US auction (so nuclear they sent me an email to make sure it was right) I indeed won for less than their estimate, which was FAR less than my actual bid. That incident restored faith.
It's Apples and Oranges.
It's rare, if ever, that a coin I want in a HA auction is offered on eBay.
On eBay, sniping is the way to go.
With regards to timing, HA will text you to let you know a lot is coming up soon - easy to know when to log on or get back to the auction room.
If you've been there live lately, it's amazing how empty the room is - many of the pro's are at dinner having left bids on line or at the podium.
HA spends plenty of time selling each lot - if you're in the room watching internet bids trickle in, it can seem like an eternity!
I kind of do a little of each!
If I'm really interested in a coin, and it's been wallowing at some obscenely low bid, I'll drop a bid of, say, 80% or 90% of my max bid about 24 hours out. (This often applies to Great Collections as well).
My theory, (with no evidence to back it up), is that some people are following and chipping in bids only BECAUSE the current bid is so dang low. What I'm trying to do is indicate that at least one "serious" bidder is now playing, and maybe they'll go away before it goes live, (or before the closing minutes for GC).
Then I'll watch live with my max bid in hand. Maybe I'll put that in as a live proxy, maybe I'll just wait and bid it live.
And my success rate? Well, not that good actually. My max bid is usually a "reasonable" bid, while many coins I'm interested in sell for "speculative" bids....bids indicating people think the coin is worth more than average. I just can't get myself to overbidding based on photos, and without seeing the coin live.
I bid much more than I win. Bidding is fun....winning is stressful.
bid when you first find the item so it's saved and then watch the auction live.
I have two approaches. If it is a coin that I have a specific set value on, I will place a bid for that amount. I ignore afterwards unless I get a win notification. This works about one third of the time. what surprises me sometimes is when I win at one or two increments lower; rare but happens.
If it is a coin that is very hard to fix a price on. (Say it is a coin you would classify as class A and may be a rare variety) I will place a marker bid around my 80 percent value guess mark. I then follow the auction and bid tell I hit my maximum mental reserve. Maybe about a 5 percent success rate so may not be the best but keeps me from owning coins and eating raimen for a year.
On hold - not a bidder in Heritage at this time. Just don't do big ticket numismatic coins over $300. I will spend more than that on PCGS gold coins I can get relatively close to melt - mostly MS69 AGE / mods.
eBay and GC for me.
eBay can use AS, GC can get some nice buy now deals otherwise will bid in last couple minutes if I c a deal. I don't like leaving a bid out there for them bid up where they have a lot of time....
I have found that the best time to set your limits is in the proxy period prior to the item going live. I then like to be on-line live for the coins I cannot "live without" which are far and few between.
I always bid live during the actual auction. Once, a few years ago, the above scenario happened to me, only my bid registered for 2-3 increments above where I meant for it to be. Since then, I simply wait for the bidding to slow down and the smoke to clear; then, if the coin is still within my range, I will place my bid and go from there.
Steve
Old thread, but came upon it cause I was curious. Buyer's premium is now 20%. And is a "Secret Maximum" proxy bid really secret??
It's not a secret to Heritage, I am sure of that.
I have read that it is posted on HA's site that THEY (HA) CAN bid on a coin in any of their auctions if they choose; and they would not pay the Buyer's premium if they do. (Of course they would only do so if they could sell it for more and make a profit).
Is the Secret Maximum bid known to the Consignor?? Especially a Consignor who hasn't yet posted their Reserve Price?
The answers to some of these questions would help define one's strategy. I buy 4 figure coins, and the reserves are often not posted early. I don't want to eat cat food for a month, so I try to stick to posting a Secret Maximum Bid of 70%, and then have a Double Secret Personal Maximum bid that I'll stick to in the Live Auction. And whatever happens, happens.
I think the answer to 1 and 2 are yes. For 3 I think is no but many sellers or even ha will push up the price.
The only drawback to bidding live is catching auction fever. Sometimes getting some strong bids early on an item can help it from building too much interest, but I don't know if that's really a viable strategy.
I will often put in internet and proxy bids because I can rarely guarantee that I'll be able to watch and bid on the auction live. There have been many cases where I had wanted to bid on an auction and life and my schedule forced me from being able to participate.
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"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
Old thread, yes, but a good topic.
If it's something in the mid-4 figure range, or something you've just gotta have, I'd recommend being there in person if possible, or phone bidding if it isn't. If you've never tried it, it's very reassuring. They call you a few minutes before it's your turn in the batting box and they'll execute your bid for you...... no worries of Internet lag or jumping a bid you didn't want to make.
I hit the bid button once in a live auction and was instantly advanced 4 increments. That's a nasty surprise, but c'est la vie.
I set my max bid via GavelSnipe and let things run their course. GavelSnipe rather than a max bid via Heritage so as to avoid feeding pre-auction run-ups. If I get outbid during the live auction, so be it. I don't ever go higher.
Smitten with DBLCs.
I haven't bid in a Heritage Auction in over two years but I never use 'internet pre-bidding'. I think that 'HA/LIVE by proxy' is the way to go. They don't place your bid for you, until the lot actually comes up during the live event, then they only bid on your behalf, until you are the high bidder, regardless of what your MAX is. If you set a nuclear bid, you can still get run up, terribly, by others using the same system and also by floor and phone/fax bidders (depending on how high THEY are willing to go), so be CAREFUL. If your MAX is exceeded, then you are done, unless you're watching and using the live bid button, but that can be dicey depending on your computer speed. Be prepared to pay your MAX, because that CAN happen, sometimes....it happened to me a couple of times. I have NO IDEA who has access to your secret info. Just don't bid more than you're willing or able to pay, because you could get into trouble very quickly, otherwise.
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Yea, something along those lines happened to me too. So.......no more.
In a live auction like a coin club I would bid on the last 25 pct of lots as by that time they ran out of money. Consequently during the viewing process I would look at those lots first.
If you want the coin, bid at the last minute and keep bidding. If you ultimately want to lose money, whatever time you place your bid will accomplish that.
I used to wait until the last seconds. if the price was where I wanted I bid. If it passed it, I kept bidding, because well, I used to believe that buying choice coins was worth the price. Sometimes I laugh at this mindset. I just got finished with my 2018 tax filing. It is really nice to have huge coin losses to offset my financial sound gains made elsewhere.
I never understood bid sniping. To win an auction you have to have the highest bid, right? Why not just put in your max bid early and walk away? If someone else exceeds your max then the timing or method of bidding doesnt really matter does it?
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In this market, execute is the appropriate word.
Folks like to chase existing high bids. If you bid very late some of that competition can be avoided.
Except snipers also like to use nuke bids which removes the very control they are trying to exert.
It all depends. I don't snipe with nuke bids--I snipe with what I want to pay. I can't tell you what my competition will be for a given listing, but I can prepare by planning. Let's consider an item at $50 and I'm willing to pay $100. It's probably worth $90-$110, so I could still lose, but I'm not bidding so low that I have no chance of winning.
If I bid $100 up front (meaning I'm winning at around $50--the exact increment is irrelevant here), someone else could come along and bid $60. They're not winning, so they try $70. Then $80. Then $90. That's where they stop. I'm still winning, but I'm paying right around $100. On the other hand, if they placed that $60 bid early on and I didn't bid, they'd be content winning at around $50. I come in with my snipe of $100 and win by just edging them out over $60.
True, if that buyer just placed their max at the start the net would be the same win for me, but at least I'm positioned to get a better deal. If I bid my max early, it can only hurt me (except in a case of tie goes to the first bidder). As a seller, I can tell you there are lots of instances where someone gets bid up in small increments. It's good for me as a seller, but something I'll work to avoid as a buyer.
If it's something in the mid-4 figure range, or something you've just gotta have, I'd recommend being there in person if possible, or phone bidding if it isn't. If you've never tried it, it's very reassuring. They call you a few minutes before it's your turn in the batting box and they'll execute your bid for you...... no worries of Internet lag or jumping a bid you didn't want to make.
Absolutely - If it's a "must have" item that's expensive, I always arrange for phone bidding if I can't attend the auction in person. Phone bidding has always worked for me.
Member ANA, SPMC, SCNA, FUN, CONECA
Remember the Potted Palm can always bid after you if it is a too good of a deal, and get it for less money.
One of our "Presently Banned members" attempted to insert what he considered humor into discussions. I miss him but not those posts such as this:
When should you bid in a Heritage auction? Before the lot closes.
Hope they let you back RB.
Proxy bidding is usually the best strategy.
As for the ways a proxy bid might be abused, consider that Heritage has a lot of employees and they won’t necessarily be there and keep company secrets forever. If I were running the company, my coin buyers on staff would not have access to secret bids. Too much long term downside risk.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Never. Haven't bid in a Heritage auction in 20 years, it's liberating.
Unless they have a coin you really want at a great price, then it is just self imposed shackles
I worry much more now than in the past (when perhaps I should have) about getting buried in a coin. The auctions anymore have just too much added costs. My shopping now is limited to a few trusted dealers and private acquisitions.
That may indeed constitute self-imposed shackles, but it leaves me enough access to quality coins for my contentment.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
I ave a friend in Germany. He has an incredible collection of Old Indian and German Colonial coins going back a long, long time. He literally has a walk-in safe full of gold and silver coins.
European auction houses know him alone by his physical presence. there was a time a couple years ago when he suspected that he "was played" ( he also has all the $$ he ever needs) when he was bidding. here is what he did:
he hired a young fellow who established a credit history with the auction house by bidding and winning some of their weekly auctions. then he showed up locally to a larger auction and made the odd bid, winning nothing for a while. My friend was also there. his proxy had the job of watching certain other bidders and when they bid and how they bid.
My friend made some bids and every time he bid, at least 2 of the "planted by the house" moles also bid, quasi against each other to drive the price.
at the end it turned out that there were at least 3 moles planted in the auction room. these "corresponded" with one other person who obviously, had contact somehow with either the online live bidding system, probably with someone sitting on a PC somewhere in the building. There is quasi NO way to get caught that way.
So the actual online bidder and the 3 moles were a team, working either for the auction house or the seller of the items.
That team had nothing else to do, except to watch certain key bidders and simply convey who was bidding to their bidder.
After this first experiment and waking up how it was done, my friend asked two other well known collector friends to join him at an auction there. And promptly the same method became apparent, except this time with 4 moles.
Also a area coin dealer was there who was probably "also played" and had an order and a bidding limit.
Eventually my friend and his friends discussed this with a lawyer and were told that they had to have evidence and prove beyond any daubt that the auction house was the instigator before they would even say a word to the owners. this they could not prove and were also not willing to pursue at this time. Lawyer also told them that it is not shill bidding this way which would make it illegal.
and that a method like this is not illegal. However, if the moles were hired by the house, it would be highly illegal.
Only one of the coins ( in 3 auctions) this "Mole team" bid on, was purchased by my friend or any of his friends. However, this coin was returned because closer tests revealed that the coin was masterfully repaired which was not declared before. Now, The auction house was stuck with the coins. A few auctions later these same coins showed up again for auction. It was obvious that the house itself owned these now, for and through whatever method. This time the coins started at over Euro 1500 and ended between 6 and 9, 000 Euro.
Now, you be the judge!! The internet is very fast and can be used in more legal ways than just sending emails.
IMO, I would call this a legal rip off.What was learned here now?
the house can and does also use proxies and can have their own property bid to whatever levels they want, as long as there are buyers who are willing to go there.
Personally I had an experience where I was told on live overseas phone bidding: two more bids and it is yours....