@shorecoll said:
In terms of "overgraded CAC coins"...isn't JA saying that a stickered coin is worth the money of the associated grade? Many toners trade at 1-2 grade price levels above the slab grade. So if a 63 toner shows up in a 64 slab, no sticker?
In my experience many toners do not have a CAC sticker. I have always taken this to mean that JA prefers not to make market in toned coins that trade at price levels 1-2 grades above the slab grade. I have purchased toned IHC's from dealers that specialize in them and they are not a supporter of CAC, and in fact make written acknowledgment of that on their web sites.
Speaking of stickers I have far more respect for Eagle Eye stickers than CAC stickers. I have never seen an Eagle Eye approved Indian Cent that I didn't like.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@shorecoll said:
In terms of "overgraded CAC coins"...isn't JA saying that a stickered coin is worth the money of the associated grade? Many toners trade at 1-2 grade price levels above the slab grade. So if a 63 toner shows up in a 64 slab, no sticker?
In my experience many toners do not have a CAC sticker. I have always taken this to mean that JA prefers not to make market in toned coins that trade at price levels 1-2 grades above the slab grade. I have purchased toned IHC's from dealers that specialize in them and they are not a supporter of CAC, and in fact make written acknowledgment of that on their web sites.
Speaking of stickers I have far more respect for Eagle Eye stickers than CAC stickers. I have never seen an Eagle Eye approved Indian Cent that I didn't like.
Not hard to believe since there are likely 10,000+ times more CAC stickers out there across all the different series of coins and more chances for you to disagree. CAC Indians vs Eagle Eye Indians I think they are pretty much even. I think John almost always stickers a Rick approved Indian. They have mutual respect.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Coinstartled said:
Reread the thread, TDN. Seems that those allied to CAC are the most fervent supporters. Many collectors though have concerns about the operation. Several forum veterans are shoved aside as chicken littles.
As a young collector, I whole heartedly support CAC and what it means to the coin market and hobby.
@shorecoll said:
In terms of "overgraded CAC coins"...isn't JA saying that a stickered coin is worth the money of the associated grade? Many toners trade at 1-2 grade price levels above the slab grade. So if a 63 toner shows up in a 64 slab, no sticker?
In my experience many toners do not have a CAC sticker. I have always taken this to mean that JA prefers not to make market in toned coins that trade at price levels 1-2 grades above the slab grade. I have purchased toned IHC's from dealers that specialize in them and they are not a supporter of CAC, and in fact make written acknowledgment of that on their web sites.
Speaking of stickers I have far more respect for Eagle Eye stickers than CAC stickers. I have never seen an Eagle Eye approved Indian Cent that I didn't like.
Where's your issue with having to go get your cents stickered by Rick?
@shorecoll said:
In terms of "overgraded CAC coins"...isn't JA saying that a stickered coin is worth the money of the associated grade? Many toners trade at 1-2 grade price levels above the slab grade. So if a 63 toner shows up in a 64 slab, no sticker?
In my experience many toners do not have a CAC sticker. I have always taken this to mean that JA prefers not to make market in toned coins that trade at price levels 1-2 grades above the slab grade. I have purchased toned IHC's from dealers that specialize in them and they are not a supporter of CAC, and in fact make written acknowledgment of that on their web sites.
Speaking of stickers I have far more respect for Eagle Eye stickers than CAC stickers. I have never seen an Eagle Eye approved Indian Cent that I didn't like.
Where's your issue with having to go get your cents stickered by Rick?
I have no issue. I said that I respected his product because I've always liked the coins he sticked.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Well, the S-9 Flying Eagle cent below is in a slab with a CAC sticker and an Eagle Eye Photo Seal sticker.
Whenever I decide to sell it, I will make sure that it has a Cowbell Galore (TM pending) sticker too.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
With all of these threads about CAC, why does seem so hard for people to understand the concept that a second opinion matters. Some people that collect things want to collect the best, or the most original, etc...
Not much different than the collector car market. There are numerous people that make a living on evaluating whether your car is original or restored to a high level. They pass their judgement and buyers pay more based on these opinions.
Some people choose to participate in the higher end of the market, buyer's at a Barrett Jackson auction, and others find their collector car in a local ad. You can decide what universe that you want to participate in. There really is no need to find fault with the people that chose one or the other method of collecting.
@shorecoll said:
In terms of "overgraded CAC coins"...isn't JA saying that a stickered coin is worth the money of the associated grade? Many toners trade at 1-2 grade price levels above the slab grade. So if a 63 toner shows up in a 64 slab, no sticker?
In monitoring all the toned Morgans at GC auctions over about a 4 month period, which included hundreds of really nice toners, many monster ones.....it's pretty clear that the ones with too many marks for the grade, typically don't get a sticker, no matter how crazy the toning or potential value. If your Morgan is colorful and pretty with NT...with the proper amount of marks for the grade, and no obvious distractions, then it gets stickered. JA seems to be very consistent here when it comes to B+ to A quality toner Morgans. They are stickering the quality of the coin, not the value. The crazier the toning on a Morgan toner, the more likely it gets a grade bump, and the less likely it stickers.
I participated in the mid to higher end of the classic car market from 1991-2004....auctions, major shows, judged events, etc. 2nd opinions do matter there. But there are thousands of those guys, all with different views. None really have more standing than the next expert. There's no single person in the car market who has the clout of JA over a large hunk of territory. Classic cars are not slabbed. Each car is unique and treated as such.
The value of my car once evaluated by an expert, has no real bearing on the next guy's car. Now if the same expert was reviewing EVERY car that went to auction, and the hobby widely considered this guy to be the best and nearly untouchable in their opinion (ie 90+% right)...then we'd have a similar situation to CAC. Having dozens to hundreds of "experts" review cars at auction doesn't establish any standard. When I had coin dealers bidding for me at major auction and using their "eyes," they had no effect on the other 99.99% of the coin market. There aren't 3-4 expert car guys getting together and "slabbing" a car like a TPG with a condition/value before they go to market. Cars are so variable and often altered in their lives (rust, body panels replaced, repaints, bad paints, wide variety of option's packages, options added, #'s, fake #'s, documentation, fake documentation, owner and maintenance history, reproduction or NOS parts used, etc.)....that it's nothing like a coin. It's closer to a work of art or painting than a slabbed rare coin.
@10000lakes said:
With all of these threads about CAC, why does seem so hard for people to understand the concept that a second opinion matters. Some people that collect things want to collect the best, or the most original, etc...
Not much different than the collector car market. There are numerous people that make a living on evaluating whether your car is original or restored to a high level. They pass their judgement and buyers pay more based on these opinions.
Some people choose to participate in the higher end of the market, buyer's at a Barrett Jackson auction, and others find their collector car in a local ad. You can decide what universe that you want to participate in. There really is no need to find fault with the people that chose one or the other method of collecting.
I participated in the mid to higher end of the classic car market from 1991-2004....auctions, major shows, judged events, etc. 2nd opinions do matter there. But there are thousands of those guys, all with different views. None really have more standing than the next expert. There's no single person in the car market who has the clout of JA over a large hunk of territory. Classic cars are not slabbed. Each car is unique and treated as such. The value of my car once evaluated by an expert, has no real bearing on the next guy's car. Now if the same expert was reviewing EVERY car that went to auction, and the hobby widely considered this guy to be the best and nearly untouchable in their opinion (ie 90+% right)...then we'd have a similar situation to CAC. Having dozens to hundreds of "experts" review cars at auction doesn't establish any standard. When I had coin dealers bidding for me at major auction and using their "eyes," they had no effect on the other 99.99% of the coin market.
I guess a better example would be the NCRS - National Corvette Restorers Society and the judging they do in the Corvette universe. Kind of like PCGS, but they use a 100 point scale.
edit - probably should have said 100% scale, they actually use a lot more points.
I guess a better example would be the NCRS - National Corvette Restorers Society and the judging they do in the Corvette universe. Kind of like PCGS, but they use a 100 point scale.
That's a decent example. But they only play in that niche market and don't play much of a role in evaluating Fords, Mopars, Buicks, Olds, Pontiacs, etc. If they branched out and covered the entire market, then we'd have something close to CAC, especially if those opinions really mattered in determining the car's worth. I know that AACA tends to judge over a wider spectrum though I don't think that matters a huge amount in determining market value.
If I recall, don't the standards of the NCRS frequently allow restamped engines, reproduction tank stickers and other such "questionable" things....all getting the full points? Just grading high on a "restoration" or "originality" scale might not be entirely transferable to actually valuing the car. You can't say a car judging at 99 pts is 10% better than one that judged at 90 points. In fact, it's very possible that the 90 point car is more valuable if it was a great original, had a great owner history right back to day 1, had "real" factory paperwork, or had a better options package. The 99 point car might have 2 body panels replaced, reproduction interior, and what have you....and it grades higher. In coins, the higher grade usually wins 90-95% of the time. I don't know for sure what the answer would be in "judged" cars.
I wish some of the big wigs with strong opinions in this thread would divulge their financial interests in CAC. It was my understanding that CAC was initially financed/backed by at least one person posting in this thread.
Of course those who have put almost religious belief (and big $$$) into CAC want it to remain to have supreme power in the markets. It is clear who the more subjective posters are (e.g., BillJones) and who the proselytizing and complicit posters are...
JA is not infallible and I agree with BillJones that he simply has too much power in the US Coin Market. But, it is the fault of his lemming-like followers, not the fault of JA.
-Brandon -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~- My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins] -~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
If I recall, don't the standards of the NCRS frequently allow restamped engines, reproduction tank stickers and other such "questionable" things....all getting the full points? Just grading high on a "restoration" or "originality" scale might not be entirely transferable to actually valuing the car. You can't say a car judging at 99 pts is 10% better than one that judged at 90 points. In fact, it's very possible that the 90 point car is more valuable if it was a great original, had a great owner history right back to day 1, had "real" factory paperwork, or had a better options package. The 99 point car might have 2 body panels replaced, reproduction interior, and what have you....and it grades higher. In coins, the higher grade usually wins 90-95% of the time. I don't know for sure what the answer would be in "judged" cars.
I'm not really up on the exact standards of the judging. I have a passing interest in the older Corvettes being a previous C5 owner and a current C7 owner.
--- end of OT diccussion, now back to the regularly scheduled thread programming (CAC bashing)
@Coinstartled said:
Reread the thread, TDN. Seems that those allied to CAC are the most fervent supporters. Many collectors though have concerns about the operation. Several forum veterans are shoved aside as chicken littles.
As a young collector, I whole heartedly support CAC and what it means to the coin market and hobby.
As you get older....your cynicism will blossom.
Or older people are just too rigid to accept change like us young folk.
The test will come as the phenomenon ages.
A ..really... savvy businessman would gauge the flow and either sell the model or relax the standards to maintain the inflow.
<CoinStartled: This has been an informative but also gut wrenching thread.
This is an educational thread, with issues that should be discussed. There were, though, some unfair and inaccurate suggestions regarding JA's behavior in the original post. I thought that there was a need to rebut them.
CoinStartled: You seem to be back peddling the influence of CAC a bit.
I do not ever remember drawing a conclusion or even putting forth a hypothesis regarding the effect of CAC on market prices. In other threads, I tried to communicate the point that, while CAC approved coins are worth more ON AVERAGE, it is important to analyze each coin of interest as an individual. I believe in discussing both the positive and negative aspects of a coin and then explaining the reasons for a numerical grade.
CoinStartled: In my experience the sticker is worth a 10% pop in price. That is significant. Particularly when left to a single pair of eyes.
This thread is not about the value of a sticker, all other things being equal. This thread was about the claim, which is erroneous, that JA has an unfair advantage when bidding in auctions. As I said, with extremely rare exceptions, JA enters wholesale-level bids on CAC approved coins. It is beneficial to owners of CAC approved coins that he is willing to buy most of them at fair wholesale prices. Collectors can and often do pay retail prices in auctions. Some auction prices are retail and other auction prices are at wholesale levels.
@Coinstartled said:
Reread the thread, TDN. Seems that those allied to CAC are the most fervent supporters. Many collectors though have concerns about the operation. Several forum veterans are shoved aside as chicken littles.
As a young collector, I whole heartedly support CAC and what it means to the coin market and hobby.
As you get older....your cynicism will blossom.
Or older people are just too rigid to accept change like us young folk.
Did you have much skin in the game when PCGS decided that they were suddenly able to grade coins in tenths of points which rendered the non plus coins just a little bit less valuable?
Same is true of the dealer created CAC organization that tells a submitter and anyone willing to check their database if a given coin meets their high standards and gets a green bean or in rare occasion is even nicer and gets a gold bean. Of course the submissions that fail become a secret which devalues even coins that have not seen the light of day well before CAC was hatched.
All I ask is that they publish the failed submissions.
YES! Then we can give these unstickered pieces of junk the proper burial.
I say drill them.
Maybe add a disgusting countermark so they won't be confused with coins worth keeping!
CoinStartled: Joebb21 noted that JA will remove the sticker from a previously approved coin if the resale at or above his bid is not available. Can you confirm that to be true?
My guess is that this is NOT true! A sticker has to do with the grade of the coin, not a change in market conditions. There are obscure items, especially in the field of pioneer gold, which have been stickered. If JA is concerned about the resale value of a stickered coin, he may lower the amount he is willing to pay for it; my impression is that JA will not remove a sticker because of a drop in demand or a previous over-estimate of the level of demand for the respective coin.
BRG: I wish some of the big wigs with strong opinions in this thread would divulge their financial interests in CAC.
As far as I know, none of the people contributing to this thread have a financial interest in CAC. Although CAC is an advertiser on CoinWeek, I do not receive any kind of commission from these CAC banners. PCGS and NGC are advertisers, too.
Bill Jones: That is a total game changer. It means that whatever anyone one else might think, the AUTHORITY has said those coins are overgraded, and that those who bid on those coins are fools.
Indisputably, this statement is an over-reaction. The presence of CAC is not "a total game changer"! A majority of rare U.S. coin buyers still acquire non-CAC coins. Check HA, Goldbergs and SBG auction archives. As I indicated in many posts, no one is saying that those who bid on non-CAC coins are fools. This is not a sensible conclusion. I said above that I sometimes recommend coins that did not pass at CAC, and I explain the reasons in regard to each such coin.
Like Ted Williams did, JA strikes out on occasion. Additionally, he and I have some philosophical differences regarding grading criteria. Every time I mention that I disagree with many CAC determinations, someone seems to imply that I am blindly following CAC.
@Coinstartled said:
Reread the thread, TDN. Seems that those allied to CAC are the most fervent supporters. Many collectors though have concerns about the operation. Several forum veterans are shoved aside as chicken littles.
As a young collector, I whole heartedly support CAC and what it means to the coin market and hobby.
As you get older....your cynicism will blossom.
Or older people are just too rigid to accept change like us young folk.
Or perhaps they have more experience on which to base their opinions. Maybe?
@Coinstartled said:
Reread the thread, TDN. Seems that those allied to CAC are the most fervent supporters. Many collectors though have concerns about the operation. Several forum veterans are shoved aside as chicken littles.
As a young collector, I whole heartedly support CAC and what it means to the coin market and hobby.
As you get older....your cynicism will blossom.
Or older people are just too rigid to accept change like us young folk.
Or perhaps they have more experience on which to base their opinions. Maybe?
_I agree with BillJones that he simply has too much power in t********he US Coin Market. _
congrats, this has become the most ridiculous FALSE information thread possible. The comment above was as stupid of statement as ever. Wanna talk about power? Heritage (yes them) and PCGS by far wield the most power in the market. They both can shift and entire market.
Face it, the creator of this thread has a bone to pick w/CAC. Yo genius, for every negative your trying to make, I can tell you CAC has done more for this hobby (as has JA) since its founding. Because of CAC, the market IS where it is today. come to my world-may the cranky old farts here still think they know it all-but today's buyers are FAR more wealthier and sophisticated then ever. They demand security for their coins. FACT: We would not have coin values where they are today with out CAC.
JA buying the 1804 was nothing be get your already tight panties in a bunch over. NO ONE needs that coin in a CAC or any stickered holder. He certainly did NOT change the value of the coin. In fact the coin selling so cheap had NOTHING to do w/JA at all-as TDN will verify. The 1804 was an exception. And CAC DOES buy bad coins and take the stickers off.
yeah, I do have skin in the game and far more experience -more then you will ever have. And this time even I agree with Analyst (quit hyping your articles).
Heritage? It is the #1 auction house, but no one follows the firm like sheep.
PCGS? It is the #1 grading service for U.S. coins, but no one takes their word without question. Only the PCGS-CAC combination has a fanatical following.
No, I will stand by my statement that CAC has more power than it deserves.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
I have had sharp graders say cac is an opportunity. When they find a coin that is strong for the grade that has no sticker, they can purchase without the "cac premium" in many cases.
@tradedollarnut said:
But you have no problem with Eagle Eye stickers. Interesting
No, because I have never seen one with which I could disagree with his opinion. Perhaps it's because he only stickers "+" coins.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
heritage has changed the entire coin market in many ways. their auctions dominate. their bidding on generics make the market. their public information does make the markets. wake up-they made the coin market bigger. excuse me mr jones, you too thick to know that?
your totally ignorant to say CAC has more power then it deserves. CAC's power is in YOUR mind. CAC only renders an opinion-an opinion that can be accepted or rejected. Darn right i am a CAC die hard. You'll never have a clue as to the power PCGS holds then-its too far above you.
who are you anyway? what great collections have you ever formed in your imaginary hey day? what are your contributions to the coin community? to me you are have been nothing more then a cranky old man who is mad at CAC because his coins won't sticker. every other thread says that you write. bet you were vocal too when PCGS was formed eh?
plus, cac has NEVER said that non cac coins are bad to buy-NEVER. more false news. I wish PCGS would make this ridiculous thread go poof!
Let's see if I got this right.
JA starts a company, and it has great success and changes the landscape of coin grading/valuing/collecting.
Sounds like the "power" was earned by figuring out a need and meeting it.
Kinda of like when PCGS first started up and changed the grading business.
People complained about the power that Sears and Wards had, then Walmart and now Amazon.
Same chit different business.
Coin collecting might of been a hobby when filling coin boards with coins found in your pocket.
But today it's a business, and the changing business rules can be very hard on those that don't adapt.
FACT: We would not have coin values where they are today with out CAC.
I agree with this. Numerous US coins, even nice ones, are now valued much lower than they should be if CAC had not existed....this is approx 80% of the current higher $$ valued slabbed market.
It's also true, that PCGS CAC coins would not be as high as they are w/o CAC being around. But, those can only represent at most approx 20% of the higher end US coin market (50% of all slabs are PCGS.... times 40% sticker rate). That leaves the other 80% out in the cold....wrong holder and/or no sticker.
If Bill Jones hasn't seen an Eagle Eye coin they didn't like I have. At least one of them. And I don't go out of my way to find nice Indian cents either. No sticker outfit is infallible. I'd say their (EE, CAC, etc.) accuracy would be in the 80-95% range. There's always room for error. If they were perfect, they'd be grading coins rather than the TPG's and raking in the big grading dough. Who could compete with 100%? Not even Ted Williams. Sticker outfits are only marking coins for their own resale/purchase. They can have any accuracy they like. If it's not high enough, the market will just end up ignoring them.
Let's see if I got this right.
JA starts a company, and it has great success and changes the landscape of coin grading/valuing/collecting.
Sounds like the "power" was earned by figuring out a need and meeting it.
CAC came around at the perfect time, as the coin market was peaking in 2007-2008. But it was the coin market crashing in 2009-2010 that brought CAC to the forefront. It was really market timing. Had that downturn never occurred, I don't think CAC would have had near the influence it has today. Much the same thing happened in the market down turn of 1980-1982 when dealers wouldn't pay CDN gem MS65 "bid" prices unless the coins were really monstrous, more like superb (66/67 quality). That was the CAC-like reorganization of that era....grading standards tightened up for 2 years. And it was quickly forgotten by 1983-1984 as prices bounced and grading sloppy came back into vogue. This time around though, there's a sticker on those coins from 2007-2016 to remind us of the past. Though there is a parallel to 1982 in that a gem MS65 CDN bid is often now required to be a "CAC" coin. So the lower end coins now don't bring MS65 money, just like they didn't in 1982. The price guides didn't change, but the coin had to be better quality.
FACT: We would not have coin values where they are today with out CAC.
I agree with this. Numerous US coins, even nice ones, are now valued much lower than they should be if CAC had not existed....this is approx 80% of the current higher $$ valued slabbed market.
If Bill Jones hasn't seen an Eagle Eye coin they didn't like I have. At least one of them. And I don't go out of my way to find nice Indian cents either. No sticker outfit is infallible. I'd say their (EE, CAC, etc.) accuracy would be in the 80-95% range.
I have to ask because I have always wondered this. The 80-95% accuracy range. How is that measured? Who gets to decide that 20% to 5% are wrong ? Whats the perimeters? A CAC sticker only means solid for the grade. It doesnt necessarily mean it's PQ. It just means its not low end for the grade. With that being said, I think Bill Jones has stated he agrees 90% with CAC. That means he thinks JA is wrong 10% of the time in his eyes. It also means in Bill's eyes that Bill Jones is right 100% of the time. The 90% he agrees with and the 10% he doesn't. Cant have it both ways. I know who I will place my bets with.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@shorecoll said:
In terms of "overgraded CAC coins"...isn't JA saying that a stickered coin is worth the money of the associated grade? Many toners trade at 1-2 grade price levels above the slab grade. So if a 63 toner shows up in a 64 slab, no sticker?
In my experience many toners do not have a CAC sticker. I have always taken this to mean that JA prefers not to make market in toned coins that trade at price levels 1-2 grades above the slab grade. I have purchased toned IHC's from dealers that specialize in them and they are not a supporter of CAC, and in fact make written acknowledgment of that on their web sites.
Speaking of stickers I have far more respect for Eagle Eye stickers than CAC stickers. I have never seen an Eagle Eye approved Indian Cent that I didn't like.
Not hard to believe since there are likely 10,000+ times more CAC stickers out there across all the different series of coins and more chances for you to disagree. CAC Indians vs Eagle Eye Indians I think they are pretty much even. I think John almost always stickers a Rick approved Indian. They have mutual respect.
mark
Hmm.... I submitted about a dozen Eagle Eyed Stickered IC's to CAC and got about a 50/50 success rate. Almost all of these were purchased directly from Rick on the bourse. Clearly they have different standards so I am not sure where you conclusion is coming from Mark.
FACT: We would not have coin values where they are today with out CAC.
I agree with this. Numerous US coins, even nice ones, are now valued much lower than they should be if CAC had not existed....this is approx 80% of the current higher $$ valued slabbed market.
If Bill Jones hasn't seen an Eagle Eye coin they didn't like I have. At least one of them. And I don't go out of my way to find nice Indian cents either. No sticker outfit is infallible. I'd say their (EE, CAC, etc.) accuracy would be in the 80-95% range.
I have to ask because I have always wondered this. The 80-95% accuracy range. How is that measured? Who gets to decide that 20% to 5% are wrong ? Whats the perimeters? A CAC sticker only means solid for the grade. It doesnt necessarily mean it's PQ. It just means its not low end for the grade. With that being said, I think Bill Jones has stated he agrees 90% with CAC. That means he thinks JA is wrong 10% of the time in his eyes. It also means in Bill's eyes that Bill Jones is right 100% of the time. The 90% he agrees with and the 10% he doesn't. Cant have it both ways. I know who I will place my bets with.
mark
Adding to the commentary - I agree with CAC about 80% of the time. I don't call it accuracy I call it an opinion of CAC vs. an opinion of mine, and we agree around 80% of the time, no worries. Everyone, including Bill, will have their own opinion on what is strong for the grade. None of these opinions have to concur with CAC at any level. That is why grading is subjective and not fully a strict science, there is, after all, a human element involved in judging a coin and humans, after all, are all different (thank heavens)...........
In terms of who gets to decide what is right, what is wrong, and whats the perimeters - well everyone gets to decide and the perimeters are whatever anyone wants them to be, that is, the subjectivity of grading coins..........................
I have to ask because I have always wondered this. The 80-95% accuracy range. How is that measured? Who gets to decide that 20% to 5% are wrong ? Whats the perimeters? A CAC sticker only means solid for the grade. It doesnt necessarily mean it's PQ. It just means its not low end for the grade. With that being said, I think Bill Jones has stated he agrees 90% with CAC. That means he thinks JA is wrong 10% of the time in his eyes. It also means in Bill's eyes that Bill Jones is right 100% of the time. The 90% he agrees with and the 10% he doesn't. Cant have it both ways. I know who I will place my bets with.
mark
Just estimates Mark based on personal experiences, reading threads over 15 years, discussions with dealers and collectors, etc. We know that during the coin grading contests that the scores were as high as 65% accuracy for best collectors and 80-85% for "best" dealers. I don't think any dealer or collector will ever claim they can consistently get 9 out of 10 right on raw coins. But stickering in holders I'm willing to stretch up to 95% accuracy. Claiming much higher than that for just one opinion is stretching things. One opinion is rarely the market. The TPG's have 3-4 graders on a coin and their accuracy seems to range from 60-85% based on my experiences. No 90%. WE all get to apply our own standards and estimate that "5-20%" error range for ourselves. JA probably has as small a range as anyone. I can't tell you what it is. But, he probably could judged on millions of coins graded and/or bought/sold. I'd say I agree with CAC 80-90% of the time for the coins I've looked at. Can't get it any more defined than that. And fwiw, I think I could rate a CAC gem MS seated coin in 3 steps as well....just made it ("ok"), very solid ("nice"), and high end for grade ("killer" or "shot coin"). But, let's not go there yet.
Well, if only 50% of EE's cents CAC'd from Spacehayduke's experiences, let's reverse it and send a group of 10 stickered CAC Indian cents to EE and see how many they agree with. I'd be surprised if it were higher than 8/10 or 9/10. You have to leave a 5-20% range for errors and inaccuracies of all sorts. Just guesstimates though. There's no way to define it better short of a govt run study where we blindly submit a $1,000,000 order of say 1,000 coins back and forth between the TPG's and CAC to see how repeatable things are. Over the course of 10-30 years, many market players have done this....their own personal resubmissions and grading results. Unfortunately, none of it is all combined into a neat study. It's now the stuff of hearsay, folklore, and myth. The "market" doesn't really want to know the answer.
FACT: We would not have coin values where they are today with out CAC.
I agree with this. Numerous US coins, even nice ones, are now valued much lower than they should be if CAC had not existed....this is approx 80% of the current higher $$ valued slabbed market.
If Bill Jones hasn't seen an Eagle Eye coin they didn't like I have. At least one of them. And I don't go out of my way to find nice Indian cents either. No sticker outfit is infallible. I'd say their (EE, CAC, etc.) accuracy would be in the 80-95% range.
I have to ask because I have always wondered this. The 80-95% accuracy range. How is that measured? Who gets to decide that 20% to 5% are wrong ? Whats the perimeters? A CAC sticker only means solid for the grade. It doesnt necessarily mean it's PQ. It just means its not low end for the grade. With that being said, I think Bill Jones has stated he agrees 90% with CAC. That means he thinks JA is wrong 10% of the time in his eyes. It also means in Bill's eyes that Bill Jones is right 100% of the time. The 90% he agrees with and the 10% he doesn't. Cant have it both ways. I know who I will place my bets with.
mark
Adding to the commentary - I agree with CAC about 80% of the time. I don't call it accuracy I call it an opinion of CAC vs. an opinion of mine, and we agree around 80% of the time, no worries. Everyone, including Bill, will have their own opinion on what is strong for the grade. None of these opinions have to concur with CAC at any level. That is why grading is subjective and not fully a strict science, there is, after all, a human element involved in judging a coin and humans, after all, are all different (thank heavens)...........
In terms of who gets to decide what is right, what is wrong, and whats the perimeters - well everyone gets to decide and the perimeters are whatever anyone wants them to be, that is, the subjectivity of grading coins..........................
Best, SH
Oh I get it. Its alway just an opinion. Its all subjective. John is as good as there is so if one is going to piggyback on an opinion its a great place to start. Its a pretty good avenue to try to keep gradeflation in check and ferreting out monkied with coins. I'd say that has a ton of value. At the end of the day a buyer needs to arm himself with enough knowledge as possible to make a smart purchase and like the coin with his own eyes.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@shorecoll said:
In terms of "overgraded CAC coins"...isn't JA saying that a stickered coin is worth the money of the associated grade? Many toners trade at 1-2 grade price levels above the slab grade. So if a 63 toner shows up in a 64 slab, no sticker?
In my experience many toners do not have a CAC sticker. I have always taken this to mean that JA prefers not to make market in toned coins that trade at price levels 1-2 grades above the slab grade. I have purchased toned IHC's from dealers that specialize in them and they are not a supporter of CAC, and in fact make written acknowledgment of that on their web sites.
Speaking of stickers I have far more respect for Eagle Eye stickers than CAC stickers. I have never seen an Eagle Eye approved Indian Cent that I didn't like.
Not hard to believe since there are likely 10,000+ times more CAC stickers out there across all the different series of coins and more chances for you to disagree. CAC Indians vs Eagle Eye Indians I think they are pretty much even. I think John almost always stickers a Rick approved Indian. They have mutual respect.
mark
Hmm.... I submitted about a dozen Eagle Eyed Stickered IC's to CAC and got about a 50/50 success rate. Almost all of these were purchased directly from Rick on the bourse. Clearly they have different standards so I am not sure where you conclusion is coming from Mark.
Best, SH
I swear I read that someplace, Maybe here and that it come from a reliable source. Hopefully Rick will chime in. Maybe I'm mistaken.
On a separate note I found this quote from Rick which touches on the OP's call to arms;
Rick Snow: "Any dealer who has a majority of CAC coins should tell you the truth if a coin was sent in and rejected.
Just like any non-photosealed coin in my inventory (PCGS and NGC FE & Indian Cents only) is obviously rejected.
I was advised that I would get sued if I listed the rejected coins I got, so CAC would likewise suffer if they listed the rejects they saw."
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
JA probably has as small a range as anyone. I can't tell you what it is. But, he probably could judged on millions of coins graded and/or bought/sold.
I agree.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Coinstartled said:
The 1804 is moot as I am not in the market for 7 figure coins. The concern though is the gentleman has access to a complete list of those holdered coins that have failed to earn a coveted sticker. More importantly, he also knows which coins have not yet been submitted and are eligible for the coveted and highly valued elevation to CACdom.
Might be a good time to publish the results of all submissions, Mr. A.
Grades tend to matter less for unique coins, absolute rarities or some differentiated conditional rarities like toners so I'd be less concerned with those coins. For some types of coins, it could matter a great deal.
"""I was advised that I would get sued if I listed the rejected coins I got, so CAC would likewise suffer if they listed the rejects they saw.""""
I suppose that if one was expecting a gold sticker and got a green instead, the slight when listed in Cac's database would also be subject to litigation.
@Coinstartled said:
The 1804 is moot as I am not in the market for 7 figure coins. The concern though is the gentleman has access to a complete list of those holdered coins that have failed to earn a coveted sticker. More importantly, he also knows which coins have not yet been submitted and are eligible for the coveted and highly valued elevation to CACdom.
Might be a good time to publish the results of all submissions, Mr. A.
Grades tend to matter less for unique coins, absolute rarities or some differentiated conditional rarities like toners so I'd be less concerned with those coins. For some types of coins, it could matter a great deal.
Maybe Barkley was right. Old gumball machines are the only decent hobby left.
so JA is tougher on copper then Snow? So? Snow has handled far more copper then JA fur sure. Since JA backs up every CAC coin with his money, why shouldn't he be tough?
Comments
Speaking of stickers I have far more respect for Eagle Eye stickers than CAC stickers. I have never seen an Eagle Eye approved Indian Cent that I didn't like.
I have purchased a number of colorfully toned Morgans (bag and end-roll toners) from Legend. All of them have green CAC stickers.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Not hard to believe since there are likely 10,000+ times more CAC stickers out there across all the different series of coins and more chances for you to disagree. CAC Indians vs Eagle Eye Indians I think they are pretty much even. I think John almost always stickers a Rick approved Indian. They have mutual respect.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
As you get older....your cynicism will blossom.
Where's your issue with having to go get your cents stickered by Rick?
I have no issue. I said that I respected his product because I've always liked the coins he sticked.
Well, the S-9 Flying Eagle cent below is in a slab with a CAC sticker and an Eagle Eye Photo Seal sticker.
Whenever I decide to sell it, I will make sure that it has a Cowbell Galore (TM pending) sticker too.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
You can never have too much cowbell.
With all of these threads about CAC, why does seem so hard for people to understand the concept that a second opinion matters. Some people that collect things want to collect the best, or the most original, etc...
Not much different than the collector car market. There are numerous people that make a living on evaluating whether your car is original or restored to a high level. They pass their judgement and buyers pay more based on these opinions.
Some people choose to participate in the higher end of the market, buyer's at a Barrett Jackson auction, and others find their collector car in a local ad. You can decide what universe that you want to participate in. There really is no need to find fault with the people that chose one or the other method of collecting.
In monitoring all the toned Morgans at GC auctions over about a 4 month period, which included hundreds of really nice toners, many monster ones.....it's pretty clear that the ones with too many marks for the grade, typically don't get a sticker, no matter how crazy the toning or potential value. If your Morgan is colorful and pretty with NT...with the proper amount of marks for the grade, and no obvious distractions, then it gets stickered. JA seems to be very consistent here when it comes to B+ to A quality toner Morgans. They are stickering the quality of the coin, not the value. The crazier the toning on a Morgan toner, the more likely it gets a grade bump, and the less likely it stickers.
I participated in the mid to higher end of the classic car market from 1991-2004....auctions, major shows, judged events, etc. 2nd opinions do matter there. But there are thousands of those guys, all with different views. None really have more standing than the next expert. There's no single person in the car market who has the clout of JA over a large hunk of territory. Classic cars are not slabbed. Each car is unique and treated as such.
The value of my car once evaluated by an expert, has no real bearing on the next guy's car. Now if the same expert was reviewing EVERY car that went to auction, and the hobby widely considered this guy to be the best and nearly untouchable in their opinion (ie 90+% right)...then we'd have a similar situation to CAC. Having dozens to hundreds of "experts" review cars at auction doesn't establish any standard. When I had coin dealers bidding for me at major auction and using their "eyes," they had no effect on the other 99.99% of the coin market. There aren't 3-4 expert car guys getting together and "slabbing" a car like a TPG with a condition/value before they go to market. Cars are so variable and often altered in their lives (rust, body panels replaced, repaints, bad paints, wide variety of option's packages, options added, #'s, fake #'s, documentation, fake documentation, owner and maintenance history, reproduction or NOS parts used, etc.)....that it's nothing like a coin. It's closer to a work of art or painting than a slabbed rare coin.
I guess a better example would be the NCRS - National Corvette Restorers Society and the judging they do in the Corvette universe. Kind of like PCGS, but they use a 100 point scale.
edit - probably should have said 100% scale, they actually use a lot more points.
That's a decent example. But they only play in that niche market and don't play much of a role in evaluating Fords, Mopars, Buicks, Olds, Pontiacs, etc. If they branched out and covered the entire market, then we'd have something close to CAC, especially if those opinions really mattered in determining the car's worth. I know that AACA tends to judge over a wider spectrum though I don't think that matters a huge amount in determining market value.
If I recall, don't the standards of the NCRS frequently allow restamped engines, reproduction tank stickers and other such "questionable" things....all getting the full points? Just grading high on a "restoration" or "originality" scale might not be entirely transferable to actually valuing the car. You can't say a car judging at 99 pts is 10% better than one that judged at 90 points. In fact, it's very possible that the 90 point car is more valuable if it was a great original, had a great owner history right back to day 1, had "real" factory paperwork, or had a better options package. The 99 point car might have 2 body panels replaced, reproduction interior, and what have you....and it grades higher. In coins, the higher grade usually wins 90-95% of the time. I don't know for sure what the answer would be in "judged" cars.
I wish some of the big wigs with strong opinions in this thread would divulge their financial interests in CAC. It was my understanding that CAC was initially financed/backed by at least one person posting in this thread.
Of course those who have put almost religious belief (and big $$$) into CAC want it to remain to have supreme power in the markets. It is clear who the more subjective posters are (e.g., BillJones) and who the proselytizing and complicit posters are...
JA is not infallible and I agree with BillJones that he simply has too much power in the US Coin Market. But, it is the fault of his lemming-like followers, not the fault of JA.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
I'm not really up on the exact standards of the judging. I have a passing interest in the older Corvettes being a previous C5 owner and a current C7 owner.
--- end of OT diccussion, now back to the regularly scheduled thread programming (CAC bashing)
Or older people are just too rigid to accept change like us young folk.
Andrew Blinkiewicz-Heritage
The test will come as the phenomenon ages.
A ..really... savvy businessman would gauge the flow and either sell the model or relax the standards to maintain the inflow.
<CoinStartled:
This is an educational thread, with issues that should be discussed. There were, though, some unfair and inaccurate suggestions regarding JA's behavior in the original post. I thought that there was a need to rebut them.
CoinStartled:
I do not ever remember drawing a conclusion or even putting forth a hypothesis regarding the effect of CAC on market prices. In other threads, I tried to communicate the point that, while CAC approved coins are worth more ON AVERAGE, it is important to analyze each coin of interest as an individual. I believe in discussing both the positive and negative aspects of a coin and then explaining the reasons for a numerical grade.
CoinStartled:
This thread is not about the value of a sticker, all other things being equal. This thread was about the claim, which is erroneous, that JA has an unfair advantage when bidding in auctions. As I said, with extremely rare exceptions, JA enters wholesale-level bids on CAC approved coins. It is beneficial to owners of CAC approved coins that he is willing to buy most of them at fair wholesale prices. Collectors can and often do pay retail prices in auctions. Some auction prices are retail and other auction prices are at wholesale levels.
What are Auction Prices?
Did you have much skin in the game when PCGS decided that they were suddenly able to grade coins in tenths of points which rendered the non plus coins just a little bit less valuable?
Same is true of the dealer created CAC organization that tells a submitter and anyone willing to check their database if a given coin meets their high standards and gets a green bean or in rare occasion is even nicer and gets a gold bean. Of course the submissions that fail become a secret which devalues even coins that have not seen the light of day well before CAC was hatched.
All I ask is that they publish the failed submissions.
YES! Then we can give these unstickered pieces of junk the proper burial.
I say drill them.
Maybe add a disgusting countermark so they won't be confused with coins worth keeping!
I wish some of the big wigs with strong opinions in this thread would divulge their financial interests in CAC.
If that's directed at me, I have zero financial interest in CAC
I'm a big wig and my opinion is strong, but alas I am still just at $40 coins with YAC stickers.....
Don't quote me on that.
CoinStartled:
My guess is that this is NOT true! A sticker has to do with the grade of the coin, not a change in market conditions. There are obscure items, especially in the field of pioneer gold, which have been stickered. If JA is concerned about the resale value of a stickered coin, he may lower the amount he is willing to pay for it; my impression is that JA will not remove a sticker because of a drop in demand or a previous over-estimate of the level of demand for the respective coin.
BRG:
As far as I know, none of the people contributing to this thread have a financial interest in CAC. Although CAC is an advertiser on CoinWeek, I do not receive any kind of commission from these CAC banners. PCGS and NGC are advertisers, too.
Bill Jones:
Indisputably, this statement is an over-reaction. The presence of CAC is not "a total game changer"! A majority of rare U.S. coin buyers still acquire non-CAC coins. Check HA, Goldbergs and SBG auction archives. As I indicated in many posts, no one is saying that those who bid on non-CAC coins are fools. This is not a sensible conclusion. I said above that I sometimes recommend coins that did not pass at CAC, and I explain the reasons in regard to each such coin.
Like Ted Williams did, JA strikes out on occasion. Additionally, he and I have some philosophical differences regarding grading criteria. Every time I mention that I disagree with many CAC determinations, someone seems to imply that I am blindly following CAC.
How will Coin Collectors Interpret Certified Coin Grades in the Future?
Sometimes maybe we need white canes to go to coin shows.
R.I.P.
Or perhaps they have more experience on which to base their opinions. Maybe?
Or perhaps they have more experience on which to base their opinions. Maybe?
_I agree with BillJones that he simply has too much power in t********he US Coin Market. _
congrats, this has become the most ridiculous FALSE information thread possible. The comment above was as stupid of statement as ever. Wanna talk about power? Heritage (yes them) and PCGS by far wield the most power in the market. They both can shift and entire market.
Face it, the creator of this thread has a bone to pick w/CAC. Yo genius, for every negative your trying to make, I can tell you CAC has done more for this hobby (as has JA) since its founding. Because of CAC, the market IS where it is today. come to my world-may the cranky old farts here still think they know it all-but today's buyers are FAR more wealthier and sophisticated then ever. They demand security for their coins. FACT: We would not have coin values where they are today with out CAC.
JA buying the 1804 was nothing be get your already tight panties in a bunch over. NO ONE needs that coin in a CAC or any stickered holder. He certainly did NOT change the value of the coin. In fact the coin selling so cheap had NOTHING to do w/JA at all-as TDN will verify. The 1804 was an exception. And CAC DOES buy bad coins and take the stickers off.
yeah, I do have skin in the game and far more experience -more then you will ever have. And this time even I agree with Analyst (quit hyping your articles).
Heritage? It is the #1 auction house, but no one follows the firm like sheep.
PCGS? It is the #1 grading service for U.S. coins, but no one takes their word without question. Only the PCGS-CAC combination has a fanatical following.
No, I will stand by my statement that CAC has more power than it deserves.
But you have no problem with Eagle Eye stickers. Interesting
But you have no problem with Eagle Eye stickers. Interesting
I have had sharp graders say cac is an opportunity. When they find a coin that is strong for the grade that has no sticker, they can purchase without the "cac premium" in many cases.
No, because I have never seen one with which I could disagree with his opinion. Perhaps it's because he only stickers "+" coins.
heritage has changed the entire coin market in many ways. their auctions dominate. their bidding on generics make the market. their public information does make the markets. wake up-they made the coin market bigger. excuse me mr jones, you too thick to know that?
your totally ignorant to say CAC has more power then it deserves. CAC's power is in YOUR mind. CAC only renders an opinion-an opinion that can be accepted or rejected. Darn right i am a CAC die hard. You'll never have a clue as to the power PCGS holds then-its too far above you.
who are you anyway? what great collections have you ever formed in your imaginary hey day? what are your contributions to the coin community? to me you are have been nothing more then a cranky old man who is mad at CAC because his coins won't sticker. every other thread says that you write. bet you were vocal too when PCGS was formed eh?
plus, cac has NEVER said that non cac coins are bad to buy-NEVER. more false news. I wish PCGS would make this ridiculous thread go poof!
Let's see if I got this right.
JA starts a company, and it has great success and changes the landscape of coin grading/valuing/collecting.
Sounds like the "power" was earned by figuring out a need and meeting it.
Kinda of like when PCGS first started up and changed the grading business.
People complained about the power that Sears and Wards had, then Walmart and now Amazon.
Same chit different business.
Coin collecting might of been a hobby when filling coin boards with coins found in your pocket.
But today it's a business, and the changing business rules can be very hard on those that don't adapt.
FACT: We would not have coin values where they are today with out CAC.
I agree with this. Numerous US coins, even nice ones, are now valued much lower than they should be if CAC had not existed....this is approx 80% of the current higher $$ valued slabbed market.
It's also true, that PCGS CAC coins would not be as high as they are w/o CAC being around. But, those can only represent at most approx 20% of the higher end US coin market (50% of all slabs are PCGS.... times 40% sticker rate). That leaves the other 80% out in the cold....wrong holder and/or no sticker.
If Bill Jones hasn't seen an Eagle Eye coin they didn't like I have. At least one of them. And I don't go out of my way to find nice Indian cents either. No sticker outfit is infallible. I'd say their (EE, CAC, etc.) accuracy would be in the 80-95% range. There's always room for error. If they were perfect, they'd be grading coins rather than the TPG's and raking in the big grading dough. Who could compete with 100%? Not even Ted Williams. Sticker outfits are only marking coins for their own resale/purchase. They can have any accuracy they like. If it's not high enough, the market will just end up ignoring them.
thank u RR.....
Duplicate post by the Forum machine.
CAC came around at the perfect time, as the coin market was peaking in 2007-2008. But it was the coin market crashing in 2009-2010 that brought CAC to the forefront. It was really market timing. Had that downturn never occurred, I don't think CAC would have had near the influence it has today. Much the same thing happened in the market down turn of 1980-1982 when dealers wouldn't pay CDN gem MS65 "bid" prices unless the coins were really monstrous, more like superb (66/67 quality). That was the CAC-like reorganization of that era....grading standards tightened up for 2 years. And it was quickly forgotten by 1983-1984 as prices bounced and grading sloppy came back into vogue. This time around though, there's a sticker on those coins from 2007-2016 to remind us of the past. Though there is a parallel to 1982 in that a gem MS65 CDN bid is often now required to be a "CAC" coin. So the lower end coins now don't bring MS65 money, just like they didn't in 1982. The price guides didn't change, but the coin had to be better quality.
I have to ask because I have always wondered this. The 80-95% accuracy range. How is that measured? Who gets to decide that 20% to 5% are wrong ? Whats the perimeters? A CAC sticker only means solid for the grade. It doesnt necessarily mean it's PQ. It just means its not low end for the grade. With that being said, I think Bill Jones has stated he agrees 90% with CAC. That means he thinks JA is wrong 10% of the time in his eyes. It also means in Bill's eyes that Bill Jones is right 100% of the time. The 90% he agrees with and the 10% he doesn't. Cant have it both ways. I know who I will place my bets with.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Hmm.... I submitted about a dozen Eagle Eyed Stickered IC's to CAC and got about a 50/50 success rate. Almost all of these were purchased directly from Rick on the bourse. Clearly they have different standards so I am not sure where you conclusion is coming from Mark.
Best, SH
Adding to the commentary - I agree with CAC about 80% of the time. I don't call it accuracy I call it an opinion of CAC vs. an opinion of mine, and we agree around 80% of the time, no worries. Everyone, including Bill, will have their own opinion on what is strong for the grade. None of these opinions have to concur with CAC at any level. That is why grading is subjective and not fully a strict science, there is, after all, a human element involved in judging a coin and humans, after all, are all different (thank heavens)...........
In terms of who gets to decide what is right, what is wrong, and whats the perimeters - well everyone gets to decide and the perimeters are whatever anyone wants them to be, that is, the subjectivity of grading coins..........................
Best, SH
Just estimates Mark based on personal experiences, reading threads over 15 years, discussions with dealers and collectors, etc. We know that during the coin grading contests that the scores were as high as 65% accuracy for best collectors and 80-85% for "best" dealers. I don't think any dealer or collector will ever claim they can consistently get 9 out of 10 right on raw coins. But stickering in holders I'm willing to stretch up to 95% accuracy. Claiming much higher than that for just one opinion is stretching things. One opinion is rarely the market. The TPG's have 3-4 graders on a coin and their accuracy seems to range from 60-85% based on my experiences. No 90%. WE all get to apply our own standards and estimate that "5-20%" error range for ourselves. JA probably has as small a range as anyone. I can't tell you what it is. But, he probably could judged on millions of coins graded and/or bought/sold. I'd say I agree with CAC 80-90% of the time for the coins I've looked at. Can't get it any more defined than that. And fwiw, I think I could rate a CAC gem MS seated coin in 3 steps as well....just made it ("ok"), very solid ("nice"), and high end for grade ("killer" or "shot coin"). But, let's not go there yet.
Well, if only 50% of EE's cents CAC'd from Spacehayduke's experiences, let's reverse it and send a group of 10 stickered CAC Indian cents to EE and see how many they agree with. I'd be surprised if it were higher than 8/10 or 9/10. You have to leave a 5-20% range for errors and inaccuracies of all sorts. Just guesstimates though. There's no way to define it better short of a govt run study where we blindly submit a $1,000,000 order of say 1,000 coins back and forth between the TPG's and CAC to see how repeatable things are. Over the course of 10-30 years, many market players have done this....their own personal resubmissions and grading results. Unfortunately, none of it is all combined into a neat study. It's now the stuff of hearsay, folklore, and myth. The "market" doesn't really want to know the answer.
Oh I get it. Its alway just an opinion. Its all subjective. John is as good as there is so if one is going to piggyback on an opinion its a great place to start. Its a pretty good avenue to try to keep gradeflation in check and ferreting out monkied with coins. I'd say that has a ton of value. At the end of the day a buyer needs to arm himself with enough knowledge as possible to make a smart purchase and like the coin with his own eyes.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I swear I read that someplace, Maybe here and that it come from a reliable source. Hopefully Rick will chime in. Maybe I'm mistaken.
On a separate note I found this quote from Rick which touches on the OP's call to arms;
Rick Snow: "Any dealer who has a majority of CAC coins should tell you the truth if a coin was sent in and rejected.
Just like any non-photosealed coin in my inventory (PCGS and NGC FE & Indian Cents only) is obviously rejected.
I was advised that I would get sued if I listed the rejected coins I got, so CAC would likewise suffer if they listed the rejects they saw."
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@roadrunner says
JA probably has as small a range as anyone. I can't tell you what it is. But, he probably could judged on millions of coins graded and/or bought/sold.
I agree.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Grades tend to matter less for unique coins, absolute rarities or some differentiated conditional rarities like toners so I'd be less concerned with those coins. For some types of coins, it could matter a great deal.
"""I was advised that I would get sued if I listed the rejected coins I got, so CAC would likewise suffer if they listed the rejects they saw.""""
I suppose that if one was expecting a gold sticker and got a green instead, the slight when listed in Cac's database would also be subject to litigation.
Yeesh.
Maybe Barkley was right. Old gumball machines are the only decent hobby left.
so JA is tougher on copper then Snow? So? Snow has handled far more copper then JA fur sure. Since JA backs up every CAC coin with his money, why shouldn't he be tough?
sounds like a lot of hot air blowing here