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IHC Aficionados -- Picked up this 1869 IHC, old Anacs white slab, anything unusual about the coin?
mercurydimeguy
Posts: 4,625 ✭✭✭✭
I keep looking at it and can't decide what, but something is different about this coin. I have a few "themes" running through my head but I think I've looked at this coin too much. It's probably nothing...but do you see something different about this coin? I've seen a lot of 1869 IHC's but don't recall this specific look. Any immediate thoughts ??
2
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There seem to be a lot of raised die lines on the neck and cheek and on the reverse, particularly beneath the bow. I don't know what to make of that, but I like the fabric of the piece.
Doesn't have a complete ribbon is the only thing that I see.
Color isn't nature to me. My guess is dipped and possibly oiled.
Might it be the machine doubling on the obverse or the really cool reverse die clash you're seeing?
Die clashing, squared off rims, the die polishing and that die crack or struck through. Looks like it has blue ribbon or something applied to it.
I think it looks cool!
Is that machine doubling or Longacre doubling?
Why isn't it blue???...
Machine doubling on the obverse.... Cheers, RickO
Die polish on neck seems normal. Can't be sure about the violet coppery toning. ANACS back in those days may not have been as sharp as PCGS/NGC in questioning color. Surfaces overall or more 63/64 today. 2/3 of the reverse rim clearly shows "rough" mint luster which is a good sign. Still a decent piece even if it ends up being AT.
Die polish lines similar to what's on the neck/cheek show up on the reverse fields above and below the ribbon.
thats what got my attention as well
Allow me to pile on:
To clarify, the outlines on the legend are what are rightly know as "Extra Outlines" not Longacre's doubling, as it is a misnomer. There is no doubling, these are shelves on the hub which transferred onto the die. CHerrypicker's calls them Longacre's Doubling, but they are wrong to do so.
The die lines, clash and die cracks give this a lot of character. I think it is more a MS64BN than the old ANACS grade given.
I am 99% sure the violet and copper toning was caused by that old ANA holder. This came up in another thread last week, the generation of holders with the alphabetical prefix on the cert number tends to tone coins in these exact colors.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
I really hate to be a nit picker with you but I need to sorta disagree on one point. What shall we call the "effect" on the letters of coins - especially Indian cents and seated types?
No one can dispute the fact that the coins have "extra outlines" in the form of shelves. It makes the letters look doubled. These "shelves" were transferred to the dies. I will not argue how this happened as there are at least two theories.
What I will argue with is your statement: "...the outlines on the legend are what are rightly know as "Extra Outlines" not Longacre's doubling, as it is a misnomer." This struck me the wrong way. You are entitled to call characteristics on Indian cents anything you wish. In fact, for decades I thought/gave you credit for coining the term "Longacre Doubling!" Thanks for setting me straight.
Nevertheless, the actual rightly known term is "Longacre Doubling." It is used by the majority of professional numismatists, appears in books and all over the Internet, and is taught in authentication/grading/error seminars (I guess except in yours). While "extra outlines" is a perfectly good description, it has no panache. I'll continue to use the "incorrect" historical term - LONGACRE DOUBLING. Sorta like Double Die vs Doubled Die. Words do mean something but old usage dies hard.
If I saw this coin raw I would think it had lots of die polish, but was unfortunately dipped and re-toned.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Longacre doubling? This thread was the 1st time ever that I had heard that term. In seated coins we call it "halo doubling" when it occurs on the central figures like the eagle's outline. You see it in other places too. I figured for Indian cents it meant the "L" on the Indian's ribbon was "doubled" and I couldn't figure out how anyone could tell from the photo. Thanks to Eagle Eye for explaining the term.
@roadrunner
Say it ain't so.
I guess I gave professional numismatist's too much credit.
I'm in the cleaned and retoned camp also - but perhaps the holder caused the color to be a bit unnatural as others suggested.
Never claimed to be a professional numismatist. That's a full time job in and of itself. Ask CaptHenway or QDB. Longacre doubling almost sounds like numismatic slang for what we now refer to as "machine doubling."
My mistake. Reading your posts over the year and blinded by all your "stars" on CU, I thought you were a well known professional numismatist on level with Rick, Fred Weinberg, Tom Delorey, and others here or mentioned in the RedBook. Does QDB post here?
As you must know, machine doubling has a different cause and looks nothing like what some call "extra outlines."
I have been using the term "Longacre Doubling" for decades as shorthand for what Rick says. Saves a lot of typing.
That said, when somebody does not know what it means, we have to type out the full explanation.
TD
I am NOT buying the die polishing lines on the neck area.
I don't know what is going on there but I do NOT think that area is subject to die polish!
A die can become damaged anywhere on its surface, be it at field level or deep within the design. Look at the 1870 Pick Axe variety. Once the die is damaged the Mint may, or may not, go to great lengths to attempt to efface the damage.
I have not seen this coin in hand and cannot comment on the die deterioration, but I see nothing in the pictures that would make me think it did not leave the Mint that way.
TD
I forget where I first heard the term but I have also heard that effect around the letters referred to as Longacre doubling.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
The first time I read about the term was in Apendix A of the Cherrypickers' Guide.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
I wish we were all in a room an could pass the coin around, that would be fun. I would add that the die polish on the bust is legit given that it's raised (e.g. it's the mirror image of a groove that would be left on the die, which when striking a coin would produce a raised line).
Also the die crack by the date, and the clash on the reverse, I've not yet seen this on an 1869 dated Indian Head Cent. And the reverse has die polish as well.
Lastly, the coin is RAZOR sharp (like 90% sharpness of a proof coin), another odd quality since most 1869 IHCs I've seen tend to be "softer" in their features, I guess that is the best way for me to describe it. The relief of normal 1869 cents is a hair lower. This coin has abnormally higher relief (it's detectable if you look at enough of them).
My thinking in combining all of these oddities about this coin is as follows:
I don't any of this to be fact, but there are enough odd features about it, plus the blazing/drooling luster when viewed in hand, to make this guess about it.
Thanks all for you input!
'nuff said. Send it to Rick for a gold eagle eye sticker...
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
Ok, educate me. What do you think caused the random raised lines and the raised pimple on the Indian. Think of that die. There is a big hollow area in the center that contains the design of the indian.
@mercurydimeguy I thought it was a proof at first glance also but this is not a proof die. As I wrote, very cool coin. I've never seen one like it. Wonder if @EagleEye has seen this die state?
Some one may have tried to remove something from the die and left a small amount of damage to the die.
Just a guess but not die polish which is mainly noticed in the fields, not on the devices.
You may wish to look at the surfaces of some common Proof Franklins and Washington quarters. Die polish on Liberty's face can be found on virtually every type of coin. In those cases, much of the time it appears as swirls rather than the straight lines usually found in the fields.
If you have Snow's attribution guide for Indian Cents,
I believe this coin is listed as an 1869 S3 which used
obv. 4 & was married to at least 6 or 7 reverses.
The obv die was lapped numerous times over various
die stages, including the face, feathers, neck, etc.
I am guessing that the coin under discussion is die
stage C ,and is S3e, but not sure what rev was used .
Interesting coin !
R.I.P. Bear
Actually, I looked in the spiral bound Snow reference and did not see it. I bought the latest 2 volume hardback set two weeks ago but did not think to check for updated info.
Just looked in 3rd Ed TFE&ICAG vol. 1. IMO, this die state is unlisted. Not S-3 1869/9