Proof Indian cent
logger7
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How do others value these, and how do you know whether the toning is original? I picked this one up recently, it has a true view. http://www.pcgs.com/cert/24805926
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logger7
Posts: 8,069 ✭✭✭✭✭
logger7
Posts: 8,069 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
Do some searches on "MS70".
There are those that are fine with the look, and there are those that aren't.
I am one of those that tries to stay away from the "blue" look (when the toning is mostly a shade of blue, vs just a little bit of blue)
As for value, since they are BN, by PCGS and NGC definition (little to no "red"), they will be "valued" low, according to price guides. Like anything, toning can add value...if it is wanted toning.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I love them but only have one. It's PR64 BN.
I'm no expert so I don't know what to say about the toning on the one you linked but I understand your concern.
Mine is toned but less crazy. I could not make mine look like that under any lighting.
As far as how to value these, it comes down to gut feeling for me. Certain BN examples have little auction history.
I paid another 50% over Grey Sheet for mine but I have zero regrets.
If I could only look at one of my coins for a day, I'd pick the Proof Indian.
Never disappoints.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
Typically these Blue-toned Proof copper coins acquired their toning for long term storage. It used to be thought that MS70 turns copper blue. It does, but that change happens because the underlying toning is revealed rather than created by the MS70 (or any other solvent). Many have posted images of before and after of copper coins that were apparently not toned and then had vivid blue toning (Stewart). In every case that I have seen, the before coin had a coating of something - PVC, age-old grime, oils. The grime hid the underlying tone by thickening the thin-flim interference pattern that created toning colors.
The proof that the toning is not caused by the solvent is in the observation that the before image being untoned and after image being blue only happens on certain coins. It is not reproducible. The reason it only works on certain coins is because these coins were stored long-term in a toning producing environment. Ten years ago I did an experiment for an article where I wrote about this. I took a coin that had PVC and not much toning, washed it in a solvent (acetone in this case). The coin turned colors. I then coated it with Blue Ribbon coin preserver (an oil) and the toning went away. I put the coin back in the solvent and the toning came back.
The reason it happens on Indian cents mostly from 1878 to 1909 is due to hoards of proof Indians being stashed away by a few dealers of that era. David Proskey and A.M. Smith both had thousands of Proof cents. They started acquiring the coins in 1878. 1864-1877 Indians sometimes come with colors, but not that often as the later years. Proskey and Smith got them from the Mint for face value at the end of each year. Proskey died in 1929 and his hoard ended up in Abe Kosoff's hands. Kosoff wrote about selling hundreds of "Iridescent Proofs" in the late 1930's and being flooded with orders. Eliasberg had some. A.M. Smith died in 1915 but his hoard eventually went to M.H. Bolender and he sold them in his 1935 sales (#98, #99 and #100).
These coins have a long history, but the PVC era (1955-1980), where coins began to be stored in soft plastic flips laden with PVC coated many of these toned coins, making the toning go away or leaving them with much less vivid colors. When you remove the PVC, you show the bare coin once more, toning and all.
I have written numerous articles about this and it is also covered in my books. Those who think these coins are somehow not original should do a bit of research first.
logger,
Your 1890 PR65BN is a very nice coin, and does not appear to me to be treated with MS70. I have four 1990 IHC proofs with varying degrees of toning. 1890 IHC proofs with toning are more rare than 1877 proofs with toning. I LIKE your 1890.
OINK
I love that one!
I'd much rather have a "BN" like that one than a full red! Very nice!
I was thinking iodine or other color producing toning chemical, that was my worry, but I guess I was wrong.
@EagleEye .... Thanks for that information Rick.... I have never experimented with IHC's and did not know about the chemical concealment of the natural colors. Cheers, RickO
Chemical concealment?
Grime, finger oils, PVC and accumulated debris on the surface of a coin is not chemical concealment.
@EagleEye ....Sorry if I misused a term... did not mean intentional concealment....was trying to indicate that the contaminants you listed were concealing the true surface condition. Cheers, RickO
Rick, I may be wrong, but I always thought that you could turn copper/bronze blue by using acetone on a coins that had been previously treated with another chemical, such as, but not necessarily, Care.
TD
Frankly I don't know any way to add toning to copper. If someone does, that's unethical, possibly criminal. If toning is already there and you bring it to light, that's conservation.
By looking at certification numbers before this coin it looks like similar ones were in the group, one graded questionable toning, but here is another one: http://www.pcgs.com/cert/24805922
I trust the experience and expertise of @EagleEye when it comes to toning on Proof Indian Head cents, but you can certainly artificially color tone copper.
There are many sellers of copper rounds/medals that sell toned versions and many of those come out looking quite beautiful... if they can do that with newly struck copper, it's not a stretch to think that someone could do it to a cent as well, especially when motivated by a likely jump in marketability. Hopefully, we can all trust that the grading services are also experts in this area and can tell the difference between those toned cents that are the real deal and those that are not.
For reference, here's a copper medal from 2014 that was artificially color toned when I bought it... very pretty, even more so in hand:
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
I like it.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
I assume that it is time spent next to something, like sulfur, that transfers to the surface. Why would it be unethical if you figured out to do the same thing in days that can take years especially if you could not tell the difference?
I have seen large cents that were dipped 'pink', then treated with gun bluing (I was told), to mask the dipping. I do not know for myself if that's what was done, but heard it from an EAC guy, and after having been shown a couple, I can spot them fairly readily. Typically on XF-AU coins, and you usually have remnants of faux red around the devices. They can still look attractive, so be careful.
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Why would it be criminal?