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Couple arrested at Sarasota coin show

kazkaz Posts: 9,291 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited February 25, 2017 8:14AM in U.S. Coin Forum

was reading Gerry Fortin's daily blog where he wrote about this
seateddimevarieties.com/DailyBlog.htm

Comments

  • oih82w8oih82w8 Posts: 12,717 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I read his blog daily. Pitiful, the actions of some people.

    oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's

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  • logger7logger7 Posts: 9,196 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The potential "gains" by the thieves will be far outweighed by their troubles.

  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 31,453 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2017 4:27PM

    Nevermind.

    theknowitalltroll;
  • hchcoinhchcoin Posts: 4,839 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Glad they caught them. People like this should be prosecuted regardless of the hassle or time involved in my opinion.

  • CascadeChrisCascadeChris Posts: 2,529 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Unfortunately hydrant is correct. And the catch 22 is that the more valuable the coin(s) stolen the more likely the they will get off with a warning for the reasons he highlighted above.

    The more you VAM..
  • HydrantHydrant Posts: 7,773 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2017 8:36PM

    Yes, they should be prosecuted. My point, however is that the actual dollar cost of the "hassle or time involved," usually always is more than the stolen merchandise is worth. In a perfect world the merchandise would never have been stolen in the first place. But we don't live in a perfect world. Just a month or so ago I was dealing with a situation involving a criminal, my company, and the police. The police detcetive was a very moral and agressive officer. A very likeable, capable, and intelligent young man. But after many meetings, some of which were very intense, we both had to acknowledge that those dam#n criminals are smart. Crime is their job. You go to work 40 hours a week at the shop or office to provide for your family. The criminal spends the same 40 hours figuring out how to rip people off. That's the reality. Sad as it is.

  • HydrantHydrant Posts: 7,773 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2017 5:01PM

    I hope I haven't stepped on any toes with all of this. The topic just gets me going.

  • KudbegudKudbegud Posts: 4,735 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The option of immediate punishment after returning the items at the offenders choice; the application of three strikes of the cane, in public, then released with out further charges or repercussions and the offence logged for future reference. Further offences of the same nature would result in the cane strikes count increasing.

    Yes, offered somewhat tongue in cheek. I know this would never fly. However, if this was the understood consequences, word would spread and incidents like this would drop off dramatically.

    It's not cruel and unusual, it's traditional and effective. Old west justice, quick and certain.


  • logger7logger7 Posts: 9,196 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Most of the stolen material that can be broken out and fenced never gets returned to the dealer. Orwell was wrong, the better the resolution big brother technology can catch crooks. Evidence. Humans are usually dumb and subject to deceit; whereas smart detectives with all the tools can do wonders. The legal system needs to be overhauled.

  • HydrantHydrant Posts: 7,773 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2017 6:32PM

    Stay vigilant. That's about all you can do.

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Hydrant said:
    I hope I haven't stepped on any toes with all of this. The topic just gets me going.

    a dealer told me that the judge let the criminals go with no jail time for a theft discussed here last year involving a nice sum of coins. dangerous for thieves to learn this outcome.

    ironic as ive seen/read people go to jail for thefts under $100 (non-coins).
    .

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  • crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 14,085 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I guess I don't get it. Ya steal ya go to jail. What in the hell happened? I missed it.

    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
  • kazkaz Posts: 9,291 ✭✭✭✭✭

    In this instance, according to the blog, the man was observed by an officer while stealing coins. Maybe that will lead to a better outcome than in Hydrant's case.

  • HydrantHydrant Posts: 7,773 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What the hell happened? This; the world/ our country has changed. It's not the same place we grew up in. I worry for my grandchildren. For what it's worth.

  • leothelyonleothelyon Posts: 8,495 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 26, 2017 12:17AM

    The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

    My Jefferson Nickel Collection

  • kazkaz Posts: 9,291 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Charmy, I hope those dealers who were robbed in Fla are as persistent as you. Otherwise this couple will likely continue to ply their "trade."

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 9,196 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Around 1999 I was set up at a small show where very little business was happening. I was a newbie, rarely did these "shows" which I have come to see as problematic for many, good luck even making minimum wage for your time. A vest pocket wanted to look through a box of modern silver coins and other coins in my case from the 50s on which was time consuming. I was not watching him all the time, and three coins went missing, a gem Saint in an early PCGS holder, a proof gold eagle and a counterfeit 1903 $20 Lib. which still had the right amount of gold. I did not realize the theft until I got home. When I spoke to the show manager he said it was my own fault I was too careless. Another reason not to set up a case at a show.

  • AzurescensAzurescens Posts: 2,853 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Gosh.. I'm sorry to hear you guys have this stuff happen.

    Admittedly, when I was 3 maybe 4 years old, my father took me to a show. I had no idea what "buying" or "selling" really was or how this "money" thing worked. TBH, I found some coins my dad might like and took them, found him 2 hours later to give them to him and he was talking to a police officer. Of course I returned everything and the old lady was really very nice about it, but boy I'll tell you, dad promptly took me out in the parking lot and wailed on me with his belt. It was the first and last time I ever got struck, and also the first and last time I ever took anything that wasn't mine. The woman made me promise to volunteer at my local library. I put 60 hours in that summer.

  • kazkaz Posts: 9,291 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would think that a 4 y.o. "volunteer" at the library would be more hindrance than help. At least you were probably toilet trained by then!

  • AzurescensAzurescens Posts: 2,853 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Lol. They didn't seem to mind. I sorted the in/out cards and stamped the library's name on the inside of donated books. I also took donations and sorted them by genre and helped at book fairs. I was actually quite the hit, all the librarians loved me lol. It was fun but I was reminded every day why I was going. That summer is when I fell in love with reading. By age 5 I was reading at an 8th grade level, and by 19 had my master's degree. I was a very smart kid on most fronts but had problems understanding other basic things like buying/selling/money or how and why people looked and dressed differently, since to me everyone was equal. It was frustrating to me to see other people not liking each other because all I saw was them not liking themselves.

    I remember being super smart at some things but being straight up daft at others. Usually social constructs and interactions, but then being scary smart in practical applications, like re-writing my school's summer reading software to require more difficult books to get a passing grade. =P such a hooligan.

  • HydrantHydrant Posts: 7,773 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Charmy, just as in the case you've related, It's common for the same criminals to come back to the same shows where they've been caught before. Several years back there was a woman and her two daughters that were making the rounds at shows in Texas. They were caught stealing in Austin, San Antonio, and Houston that I know of for sure. They were never arrested just escorted by security out the door. They had no fear of the law whatsoever. It got to the point where one show promoter would actually issue them with clear plastic handbags when they arrived at the show. The clear handbags were the promoters idea of a security precaution. Top that!

  • HydrantHydrant Posts: 7,773 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 26, 2017 12:13PM

    Charmy, on a personal note. Last year at the Buena Park show as I was walking past your booth, I noticed that you were spending a lot of time with one particular young boy. I stopped to watch as you were showing him coins etc. There was an adult with him. Probably his father. It was nice to see you helping the kid. At the same time I was watching the man. It's so common for the adult thieves at shows to use children as a distraction while they steal the dealers blind. No matter how innocent the situation my seem, always be especially alert when young children are the focus of your attention. It's sad but true. I could write a book on this subject. I've seen it all.

  • TPRCTPRC Posts: 3,814 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I knew I liked you, Charmy!

    Tom

  • coinhackcoinhack Posts: 1,193 ✭✭✭✭

    The description of the thieving couple sounds so familiar. A couple that fit this description to a T came to a regional show that I was at about 6 or 7 years ago. They were about 60 then and "looked elegant" as Gerry Fortin described them. They sat in front of my showcase and asked to see a coin. I opened the case and handed the coin to the "gentleman" and he looked at it and then handed it to her. She looked it over and then handed it back to him and he set it back in its place in the case. He then picked up another coin, looked at it and showed it to her. He asked her if she would like it and she said, no and so he put it back and they got up and left.

    A while later another dealer complained that someone had stolen a coin from his case while it was locked or when he had it open showing coins. I didn't think too much more about it until I was packing up and counted a group of ten dollar gold pieces that I had laid out in a row with them overlapping each other. Two were missing.

    My cases had been locked and attended all day. Thinking back, no one had access close enough to those gold eagles except for that one couple. I believe that as he showed her the coins and put them back, I was distracted while he scooped up those two coins.

    After you've been to the same shows a number of times, most of the same faces become somewhat familiar. When new people show up they stand out to you and it's always nice to see some new blood. This older couple were not familiar to me and I had never seen them at a show. Since then I have never seen them again, which leads me to believe that they may have just been passing through. I remembered them partly because they didn't fit in to the usual crowd either. They were way overdressed for a coin show. And their clothes were a little old fashioned. They looked kind of vaudevillian. Sort of like a well dressed magician and his elegant assistant. Hmmm. From Gerry Fortin's description, I just had a gut feeling that this could be that same professional couple.

    An expensive lesson. But I was educated and I have never been robbed since. Now my cases are lined with a dark green material and all of the white PCGS or NGC holders and white 2x2's are placed close together. I never stack up or group valuable coins and lay them out orderly so that anything that is missing leaves a big green spot. When something is sold, another coin is put in its place. A professional thief might be able to remove one of my coins again by slight of hand but I would immediately know that something was missing by the green hole that was left behind. It's worked so far.

  • 1630Boston1630Boston Posts: 14,115 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sad indeed, all the way around :disappointed:

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  • logger7logger7 Posts: 9,196 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 26, 2017 1:38PM

    I had another similar case as "coinhack"; I was at a libertarian political conference in northern NH, put out a few gold coins to show US 1/2 oz. eagles the mint puts out. A couple walks up, I get distracted and before you know it one went missing but it was a little while by the time I was sure of what happened. That's how these criminals work. I'm waiting for the wrong dealer getting ripped off, gunning down the crooks as they try to get away. As it is now they have no risk, the worst that happens usually is they pay for the stuff or get a slap on the wrist.

  • KudbegudKudbegud Posts: 4,735 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Would all dealers at a show sign a pledge to not let thieves go but prosecute and support each other?

    I still like my swift and certain old west justice posted above. Give the thief a choice; go to jail or accept corporal punishment right there.


  • HydrantHydrant Posts: 7,773 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 26, 2017 4:25PM

    That's a good idea Kuddegud. Unfortunately I don't think it would work. People just won't stand together in a united front even if it's for their own good. There's always a weak link. Example; On two occasions that come to mind, a thief was detained at a show where I was a dealer. In both instances the thieves had stolen from multiple dealers and they had the loot on their persons. When us dealers were together deciding wether or not to press charges, both times, one or two dealers declined. I was very forceful and tried to explain that we needed to press charges not only for our own benefit but to protect all the other dealers. To send a message that as a group we won't toletate it. My argument meant nothing. In both cases the dealer(s) that declined to press charges actually said that they felt SORRY for the criminal. The dealer(s) thought that the embarrassment of being caught was punishment enough. You know, all the crocodile tears etc. People are weak. You can't make this stuff up.

  • KudbegudKudbegud Posts: 4,735 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Then those that are willing to band together, do so. Those to timid to, don't. After they, the timid, see the power of group force sending the bad guys ("alleged" bad guys, have to keep to a smidgen of PC) to the grey bar hotel, they may relent and join in. Power to the people!


  • northcoinnorthcoin Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 27, 2017 12:27PM

    This has been an interesting thread. I was sure by this point someone would have commented on the Life imitates Art aspect though with regard to similarities to the Hawaii Five-O coin heist show from the original series. Like the OP's real life account, a female assistant provided the distraction that gave the opportunity for the thief to lift the coin in the TV show as well.

    In the 1973 episode of Hawaii Five-0 titled, "The $100,000 Dollar Nickel" (which was based on the theft of the Olsen Specimen of the 1913 Liberty Head Nickel that had just set the record for the price paid for a single coin the year prior in 1972), there was an interesting parallel to the real life theft subject of this thread. In both cases the coin(s) were stolen at a coin show by a thief who used a distraction. In the fictional TV episode the con artist's attractive wife provides the distraction as character Arnie Price examines a dealer's coins at the coin show being held in Waikiki's Ilikai Hotel.

    For any not familiar with the celebrity history of this coin, as above noted it was the first coin to sell for $100,000. In 2010 it was sold to an undisclosed party for the sum of $3,737,500.

    Edited to add:

    More recently Heritage Auctions posted this with regard to 2014's FUN:

    "A legendary rare nickel that was made under mysterious circumstances and was unknown to even exist for many years is coming back in the spotlight.
    The Olsen specimen 1913 Liberty Head nickel, sometimes known as the "Hawaii Five-O" specimen because of its featured appearance in an episode of that popular television program, will be offered in the Heritage Auctions U.S. Signature Coin Auction at the Florida United Numismatists Convention in Orlando, Jan. 8-12, 2014.

    It is graded NGC PR64, and Heritage officials estimate it will sell for $3.5 to $4.25 million.

    Even though Heritage has not yet issued any formal news release about its upcoming auction, collectors already are inquiring about this internationally famous coin.

    "We have received serious inquiries from dealers and collectors, including at least one collector from Asia and another from Europe, who are interested in acquiring the Olsen 1913 Liberty Head nickel," revealed Todd Imhof, Executive Vice President of Heritage."

    Despite getting a green CAC sticker, it actually sold for less in the 2014 FUN Auction with a reported price of $3,290,000 - though that may well have been a sale back to the consigner.

    This from Coin Update:

    Hawaii Five-O 1913 Liberty Nickel Realizes $3,290,000
    January 9, 2014 By Dennis Hengeveld

    "The 2014 Florida United Numismatists Convention held in Orlando, Florida included an auction conducted by Heritage Auctions. While almost every type of United States coinage was offered at the auction there were a number of single coins that led the sale. One of these, no doubt, was the Olsen specimen of the 1913 Liberty Nickel. Graded PF-64 by NGC and considered to be second finest of just five specimens known to have been struck and known to exist, the coin realized a final price of $3,290,000 including buyer’s premium. The coin, which is famous for appearing in a 1973 episode of the series “Hawaii-Five-O” had last sold at public auction in January of 2010, when it realized $3,737,500."

    Here is my photo of the Hawaii Five-O 1913 Liberty Head Nickel from a viewing of it at a Portland ANA show:

  • segojasegoja Posts: 6,141 ✭✭✭✭

    Thieves can and do get prosecuted. Most DA's actually WILL work with you even if you are at out of town shows. I've been part of several cases where coins were stolen and months later thru lots of teamwork with dealers and police charges are brought. The coins are generally NOT confiscated contrary to what is stated here (in the cases I was part of no coins were confiscated) Once judgement is rendered, typically part of the sentence is not to attend coin shows for a period of time (normally 5 years). If the thief is caught attending shows they break their probation which then can land them in jail.

    I also had a thief steal coins thru a stolen credit card (his moms). I prosecuted and the guy got 3 years in jail, and I have a judgement against the guy for the amount of the theft..I'll probably never collect it, but I do have the judgement.

    Moral of the story, you need to prosecute or the thieves will forever take advantage of the system. Yep its a pain, but so is the loss.

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  • Dave99BDave99B Posts: 8,761 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Charmy, thank you for 'doing the right thing', regardless of the results. Unbelievable!

    Dave

    Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.
  • AzurescensAzurescens Posts: 2,853 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @logger7 said:
    I had another similar case as "coinhack"; I was at a libertarian political conference in northern NH, put out a few gold coins to show US 1/2 oz. eagles the mint puts out. A couple walks up, I get distracted and before you know it one went missing but it was a little while by the time I was sure of what happened. That's how these criminals work. I'm waiting for the wrong dealer getting ripped off, gunning down the crooks as they try to get away. As it is now they have no risk, the worst that happens usually is they pay for the stuff or get a slap on the wrist.

    It's never OK to shoot someone in the back.. unless they're running away with your gold. =P

    There's all sorts of nuts in society today. I can imagine some missing coins, a scuffle in the parking lot and, well, a bad day all around. I don't know if you guys do or not, but if I ever sold in the amounts some of you do, I'd definitely bring my gun. Especially for loading/unloading the whole haul. Times are getting tougher and desperate people do desperate things.

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