Pattern 1855 small cent varieties

MusicAL

Hello, everyone.
I haven't been here in ages and I fear that I may be a bit out of sync with new rules and guidelines. Please excuse me if I step on a toe or 2.

I am trying to determine the variety number and scarcity of an 1855 small cent pattern. I've kind of given up though I was able to determine it is of the 2 leaves variety above the E in STATES. I don't know if I can (or if I am even allowed) to post the images...but if they don't appear, can anyone help me to determine what possible "J" numbers might apply to the 2 leaves variety and where I might search for a reference online? Thanks VERY much.

Music AL

DMWJR

J-172 or J-173 depending on metal composition

yosclimber

Here's the best online reference that I know of (I linked to the page which includes 1855 patterns):
uspatterns.com/pat17.html

jdimmick

How big is this coin in relation to a cent size. Was looking for a patter to fill a hole in a dansco set of indian cents , would this pattern fit, kind of like it

FallGuy

@DMWJR said:
J-172 or J-173 depending on metal composition

This.

"United States Pattern Coins" 10th Edition has the J-172 rarity as L6 and the J-173 as an L-7.

I think it's a very attractive large cent pattern. Congrats!

Raybo

Cool coin Al!

ricko

Welcome back ... and a nice coin indeed.....Cheers, RickO

MusicAL

Hello, everyone.

As always, your input and sharing your skill and knowledge is invaluable. Thank you.
Yosclimber and DMWJR, thanks for the attribution assistance. Out of curiosity, What is the J scale for rarity, if I may ask, how high do the numbers in the Rarity scale go? I noted that there were restrikes made. Can these be determined or should I submit it to PCGS. I can't tell if it is copper or bronze. Just renewed my membership.

Jdimmick, the coin is small cent size but I'm not sure it would fit in a book like yours.

I am thinking that somehow this piece made it into circulation judging from the weakness of tail details among other obvious spots. How does one evaluate a piece like this for sale?

Again, thanks VERY much!

MusicAL

Zoins

@afford said:

@MusicAL said:
Hello, everyone.

As always, your input and sharing your skill and knowledge is invaluable. Thank you.
Yosclimber and DMWJR, thanks for the attribution assistance. Out of curiosity, What is the J scale for rarity, if I may ask, how high do the numbers in the Rarity scale go? I noted that there were restrikes made. Can these be determined or should I submit it to PCGS. I can't tell if it is copper or bronze. Just renewed my membership.

Jdimmick, the coin is small cent size but I'm not sure it would fit in a book like yours.

I am thinking that somehow this piece made it into circulation judging from the weakness of tail details among other obvious spots. How does one evaluate a piece like this for sale?

Again, thanks VERY much!

MusicAL

If it is small cent size then it has to be a fake imho.

Or it can be a new discovery. We have had those on these boards in the past.

There was the 1942 aluminum cent pattern first posted here that was called a fake but then certified by PCGS and sold for $126,500.00.

Zoins

@afford said:

@Zoins said:

@afford said:

@MusicAL said:
Hello, everyone.

As always, your input and sharing your skill and knowledge is invaluable. Thank you.
Yosclimber and DMWJR, thanks for the attribution assistance. Out of curiosity, What is the J scale for rarity, if I may ask, how high do the numbers in the Rarity scale go? I noted that there were restrikes made. Can these be determined or should I submit it to PCGS. I can't tell if it is copper or bronze. Just renewed my membership.

Jdimmick, the coin is small cent size but I'm not sure it would fit in a book like yours.

I am thinking that somehow this piece made it into circulation judging from the weakness of tail details among other obvious spots. How does one evaluate a piece like this for sale?

Again, thanks VERY much!

MusicAL

If it is small cent size then it has to be a fake imho.

Or it can be a new discovery. We have had those on these boards in the past.

There was the 1942 aluminum cent pattern first posted here that was called a fake but then certified by PCGS and sold for $126,500.00.

Certification by TPG's doesn't mean squat. They make mistakes, plenty of them and rarely stand behind their errors....mechanical errors remember. So now it comes down to what do known experts think and what mint records/letters exist. I cannot fathom a mini authentic flying eagle patter existing especially since many mini fakes are known to exist in other series. The likelihood of this being real is low while the likelihood of it being fake is high, which would you choose. BTW it would look pretty silly if it were real, the is a big arse eagle and then add to it a date and the stars and it would make little sense, thus the larger size.
I studied closely and found that it is an exact copy of the regular standard size just minitiarized. The stars are in the exact same place, and the locations are of where the stars point are a match i.e. the point between the dentils exactly the same, the date line sup with the denticles too. All aspects of the obj and rev are a match to my 1855. I would think that if it were genuine that there would be differences, proportionate differences as well as others. IMHO what you have here is an exact miniature and imho therefore a fake copy. One cents were made smaller in 1856 i.e. the normal flying eagle cent. I cannot believe this one is real, but then the job here to prove it real is a lot harder.

The 1942 aluminum cent is also listed in both Judd and Pollock.

I'm not saying this particular specimen is real or not, just that it shouldn't be categorically called a fake if it hasn't been seen before.

MrEureka

@afford said:

@MusicAL said:
Hello, everyone.

As always, your input and sharing your skill and knowledge is invaluable. Thank you.
Yosclimber and DMWJR, thanks for the attribution assistance. Out of curiosity, What is the J scale for rarity, if I may ask, how high do the numbers in the Rarity scale go? I noted that there were restrikes made. Can these be determined or should I submit it to PCGS. I can't tell if it is copper or bronze. Just renewed my membership.

Jdimmick, the coin is small cent size but I'm not sure it would fit in a book like yours.

I am thinking that somehow this piece made it into circulation judging from the weakness of tail details among other obvious spots. How does one evaluate a piece like this for sale?

Again, thanks VERY much!

MusicAL

If it is small cent size then it has to be a fake imho.

More likely, MusicAL is mistaken.

yosclimber

@MusicAL said:
... Out of curiosity, What is the J scale for rarity, if I may ask, how high do the numbers in the Rarity scale go?

J is a Judd ID number, not a rarity scale.
FallGuy posted an L scale for rarity that I'm not familiar with; apparently defined in the book he references.
The most common rarity scale uses R and goes to R-8.

FallGuy

Apologies for the confusing post. Judd adds Low and High to the rarity scale for only R6 and R7. I was looking at the populations under the rarity column and copied the data for the OP's pattern without even thinking about it.

MusicAL

Hello to everyone who has been so helpful in answering my inquiry about the 1855 Flying Eagle 1 cent pattern. I too became a bit confused about the "Size" of the coin after reading the posts so while I was at the bank, I pulled it out of the dark recesses of the bank box and with a ruler, discovered that it was very close to 1" in diameter, significantly smaller than a "large cent" and significantly larger than a "small cent". My old photos were used in my post and I'm sorry!!! Hell...I'm 66...guess I can mess something up occasionally...???

OK. so clearly here we have a topic where size definitely does matter! Does this measurement throw a monkey wrench into my whole initial question and your very kind replies? Does it still qualify as a Judd 172 or 173???

Sorry I have made a mess of this. Again, thanks for your guidance!

MusicAl

EagleEye

Here is a link to the die markers

Your coin looks to be XF. These sell for $2,000 to $3,000