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1915 Lincoln pickup with promising MPL characteristics!
boyernumismatics
Posts: 473 ✭✭✭✭
Hi all. I just got back from an 8 hour round trip to a Texas coin show. Scouting out the dealers' coinage, I spotted this sucker from five feet away. Upon closer inspection, I'm highly leaning towards this being a MPL. The die characteristics all match up, as well as the rim being bold, thick, and flat. The letters are all squared away and bold. The beard and suit are fully struck and bold. I'll post some pictures here. I'm super stoked to have come across this piece of history! It's hard to see all of the die file marks through the thick "tiger stripe" toning, but they're there, I assure. 
3
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I don't know the diagnostics but it looks pretty "proofy" to me! However I have been fooled by nice biz strikes in the past.
I will defer to our resident Lincoln cent experts.
The one that sells me more than any of the other diagnotics are the die file marks to the right of the N in IN. They form a sort of "Y" or "X" shape depending on how you want to look at it. I found a thread on here from 2008 that had a great close up picture of it on a non toned example.
I don't think the rims are square enough. I had a 15 as well that had a killer strike and matte fields. All the experts said no. I still believe it was struck with a die made from a proof master hub, as it had some of the die scratches associated with the MPL of 1915.
I wish you luck, but I think the coin is a business strike. The die line characteristic of the proof coins between IN and GOD is to the left of what I believe your die line is while the line from T in CENT to the second S in STATES does not match where the known proofs end, either.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I really wish I could get a clear picture of the polish lines that are an exact match to the known and certified proofs. I took the better half of an hour with this coin under a 10x loupe and my 12MP phone camera on full zoom trying to get some clear pictures of them. In hand they're blatant and obvious but the tiger striping hides them well.
This thing is littered with file marks in the appropriate and corresponding spots.
Regardless of proof or not, that is one of the most outstanding looking coins I've ever seen posted here.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
I meant to write that your die line is to the left of the proof coins between IN and GOD, but I know that my theorizing is rather useless since I have not seen the coin in-hand.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Thank You!!!
I wish you good fortune with your find! I collect these as a primary focus and to be honest, your rims look a bit too rounded. The 1915s I've seen that are certified have very pronounced wide and flat rims with no bevel on the outside.
I've also seen some very well struck business strikes on that date which can look very prooflike. I hope you are successful but even if it turns out not to be a matte proof, that is a very pretty coin you have found!
Here is an example showing how broad and flat the rims should look:
https://caimages.collectors.com/coinimages/50297/25635334/1c1915-3117.jpg
That's a smooth looking MPL! I'll shoot you a message and we can talk there if you don't mind.
Awesome toning
I had to "extract" this from photobucket. What a pain in the azz to use these days. So mine had the die scratch leaving diagonally from the R in LIBERTY that matched the diagnostics as well as die polish lines in the IGWT area. That is why I believe a modified master hub was used to make the early 15 business strikes. Funny, I bought my example at the Houston Money Show from a Dealer that lived in San Antonio. Have since sold.
The rims don't look like a proof to me but it is a
very cool coin none the less.
I couldn't see either of the die scratches under the R in TRUST or the R in LIBERTY. Since you have the coin in hand check and see if they are there.
- Bob -
"Central Valley" Roosevelts
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
The rims bother me but it's a really pretty coin.
That is a very nice coin.... however, I will defer to experts on this one... either way, nice find. Cheers, RickO
my initial thought as I scrolled through the pictures is the same as most others, just a nice, sharply struck business strike. not meaning to be critical but just offering a suggestion --- instead of photographing to show WHY IT MIGHT BE A PROOF, try taking close-up pictures of areas which don't appear to show Proof characteristics, primarily the bottom rim of both the obverse and reverse.
That is one sharp looking coin, and, Great Pics.
Before you buy "matte proof Lincoln's", get a Book. Flynns MPL guide is excellent, and Albrecths early pamphlet works too. The diagnostics MUST match known coins. The strike in general MUST match known coins. The OP coin, while pretty, is a business strike. Besides getting through NGC and not being called a proof, the general look is way off for a mpl. First off, where's the granularity and matte surface? The 1915 is struck pin sharp, a standout even among the other mattes. The weak rounded nature of the motto and other lettering is obvious. Now, rims....rims on an mpl are square and equal all around. The outer edge of the rims will be completely smooth, no "matte" or granularity. This should be obvious looking into the holder. All said...before you start second guessing TPGs on what Is and what Isn't a MPL....get the books.
I agree with what Ambro51 wrote. There is another, possibly more useful book in this regard:
Carl Waltz Jr./A Collector's View of Matte Proof Lincoln Cent Dies 1909 to 1916. This discusses the die characteristics for each date in the series, and has lots of photographs.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Wow, nice pics. I'll root for you, but unless you get the same graders as the recent 1909 VDB proof, I don't think she will pass.
not a proof (my non-expert opinion only)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
Did you crack it out? What did NGC have it graded as?
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
Very nice coin, Big risk to crack it out with any color on it. I don't think it's a proof but it is a very nice coin and Good luck to you on grading.
Hoard the keys.
Hi boyernumismatics 1915 MPL only one die was used. First check for a die line from the rim between IN GOD. Next the G of GOD you will see a die line going from if to Lincoln's head. Another die line below R of LIBERTY.
One thing I've noticed about the matte proof Lincolns I've handled is that both the inner and outer rim are extremely sharp. I'm not seeing that here.
I'll be very surprised if this makes it into a proof slab.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
Nice coin, I wish you luck, but I do not think it is a proof.
It's a very pretty business strike. Keep in mind, I believe some business strikes were struck with proof dies.
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After all the controversy, who in his/her right mind would buy an MPL?
My impression was this was bought as a MS, hoping for a MPL
Precisely, and for a great value for the MS designation.
It is very hard to find more detail on a Lincoln, it has a very hammered strike.
Nice coin but looks like a sharply struck business strike. The rims don't look square enough.
Yup, I'm not seeing a fully squared rim all around nor the proper matte surfaces.
It's a beautiful wood grain toned example but it's a business strike.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
I'm not usually a fan of toned copper unless it is extremely exceptional. I would scoop this one up in less than a heartbeat. As to MPL, the rims are questionable but you have it in hand and know exactly what die markers to look for so..
NGC must have graded it as a MS but why would you crack the coin out? I'm quite sure PCGS or any other service would have been happy to receive it in the NGC holder and if it were actually a Proof - correct the NGC mistake if they made a mistake.
IMO, I see none of the characteristic die polish (including next to the "N" one member sees) authenticators have published to ID 1915 MP coins. Good Luck with your find. Hope you send that "gem" to our hosts and I'm mistaken.
Thanks, I'm more than likely just going to sell it raw. Also, I despise NGC with a passion. They've damaged coins of mine and I've refused to send another coin to them, ever. If I ever buy one, I crack it out and send to PCGS or sell it raw. NGC... BLEH!
To each his/her own; however, I don't despise any TPGS. When ANACS was the only authentication service "in town." I heard the Director, Charles Hoskins, tell our ANA Summer Seminar class that he felt there should be more than one Certification Service and competition as well as the option for a second opinion was welcomed!
IMO, history has proved that Hoskins knew what he was talking about. It's unfortunate that the ANA has chosen to virtually ignore his contribution to that organization as a Numismatist columnist, Summer Seminar instructor and the first Director of ANACS. When ANACS was moved to Colorado for political reasons, Hoskins became one of the founders of the International Numismatic Society and the Director of that organization's Authentication Bureau which eventually became the first third-party grading service offering free grading (when requested) for coins sent for authentication months before the ANA Grading Guide was published. BTW, when ANACS added coin grading (for an extra charge) to their services, INSAB started to charge their customers a fee also. Hoskins is deceased and the INSAB lost market share several years after NGC was establish.
I dont know about everybody else, but the past few weeks have given me a great education on these coins! My interest is piqued into purchasing one as well, but who the hell know what actually resides in the holder! Buy the book before the coin is the lesson!
Buy the several suggested references here or print out the images and info on the Internet from those books. Knowledge is power.
I know what resides in the holder of the one I found. Go for it!
just submit it to our host. They've been giving proof designations to ms pennies lately
Cascade Chris;
Yes you did!
BoyerNumismatics, Really nothing to lose by sending it in. It is a pretty coin to keep in any case, proof or not.
What coin of yours did NGC mess up? What did they do to it?
GREAT coin boyernumismatics. And a great thread as well. I do have Kevin Flynn's book and I looked the 1915 MPL in his book. He lists seven die scratches but I could only discern the die scratch to the right of IN in his pictures. The other six would have to be seen with the coin in hand. It appears from your pictures there is a die scratch to the right of IN on the obverse , and it is in the same direction as on a 1915 MPL, but it is too close to the N. Thus I am pretty sure that yours is not an MPL.
It is very difficult if not impossible to find the other six die scratches from even a TrueView picture, especially on toned specimens. I could only find the die scratch on my 1915 MPL (cert. no. 25390168 ) to the right of IN, and the other six do not show in a picture, even on RD 1915 MPL's.
Definitely worth submitting and best of luck.
OINK
It wasn't an expensive coin, but it was enough to lose my service forever. I had purchased a late 80s proof set from my LCS that had all of the clad coins frosted over with this amazing snow white frost. When the coin came back, it was just like any other proof Kennedy. I was blown away by the blasphemous action they took upon themselves to do. I don't care what they would have graded it, i wanted that coin to stay like it was...isn't that the whole point of sending a coin in in the first place??? They dipped it in some sort of harsh acid that etched into the surface of the coin around the rim. It was an awful looking coin afterwards.
The rims on your coin look more rounded or beveled than what MPL's come with. I love the color of yours!
- Bob -
"Central Valley" Roosevelts
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Yipes! That is awful. I certainly understand your decision to cut them out.
I wonder how they got the idea to do that? I feel for you, that is very disappointing.