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Why is the "premium" on generic gold at 14 year lows?

cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,549 ✭✭✭✭✭

Many generic pre-33 gold coins (even Uncs) can be purchased at very low premium to melt. Why is this? Why such low premium?

Excuses are tools of the ignorant

Knowledge is the enemy of fear

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Comments

  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭

    For those of us who don't buy them, what is a low premium?

    I'd guess the answer is lack of demand.

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,110 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2017 8:02PM

    According to Laura Sperber:

    "collectors and investors spend their money on better-date coins, which she believes will perform better over time than generics."

    Apparently collectors agree with her.

    As for stackers, IMO common saints have never been a good bullion play. Much better bang for the buck with modern gold.

    The decline from democracy to tyranny is both a natural and inevitable one.

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,549 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BAJJERFAN said:
    For those of us who don't buy them, what is a low premium?

    I'd guess the answer is lack of demand.

    For example, $20 libs in 62 or Saints in 63 trade for about 6% over melt. Before 2009, the premium was about 25%....during the run into 2011 premiums went to as much as 50%....then around 15-20 from 2013 thru 2016. Right around and just after the peak in 2012 premiums were just a little higher than today. In other wirds, premiums were near these lows at the peak as obviously people didn't want to buy into a falling knife.

    But why such low premiums now? If it's lack of demand, then will prices drop furthrr, or is this the apathy that makes bottoms?

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • jdimmickjdimmick Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I just got word today from an inside source, that One of the major players in generic 10's and 20's, said they market is super saturated in them, they are so many on the market looking for takers, its not even funny. was told the same about generic silver dollars, especially peace $. One major dealer has vaults full of them.

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,110 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2017 8:10PM

    Maybe those high pressure telephone sellers that ripped off the old ladies with common gold helped drive premiums up. Many of them have been shut down.

    Lack of demand is a good reason for premium decrease. Question we should be answering is why lack of demand?

    Laura gave an excellent reason from the collecting perspective. From the stacking perspective it's most likely because stackers are shunning them for purer gold.

    And the obvious answer is that they were just over priced.

    The decline from democracy to tyranny is both a natural and inevitable one.

  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Maybe buyers are just wising up. IMO it makes no sense to pay 6% over for less than an ounce when you can buy a full ounce as a Buffalo or AGE for 3-3.5% over. Based on mint sales, it looks like gold demand is down in general. Tax time? Maybe people have all they want. If Saints are your thing, it may be a buying opportunity.

  • hchcoinhchcoin Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think silver is a better investment right now especially with the GSR near 70.

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,549 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think the old time stackers or old money prefer the classics. Personally, while I'm not old time, would prefer to buy UNC saints to AGEs. Maybe its just nostalgia.

    I agree with derryb that's it's a lack of demand, but why? Coupled with the previous thread about having enough silver, I'm wondering if it's just apathy, which while is a good sign of a bottom, can also mean a long consolidation period before the next bull run.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 9,964 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2017 6:12AM

    Maybe it represents younger buyers that like the modern trash more than real coins

    edited to add :D

  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,794 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Why? Because most people are occupied with the drama on other social networking sites and were lulled into thinking we could get it for less at Walmart.

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    When it comes to liquidity, IMO, modern bullion is preferable.... Certainly for those who are collectors, the older coins are attractive.... and now, with the market in general down, the premiums are down... If you cannot move the inventory, you are losing money. So, stack the new stuff, but collectors have an opportunity at this time... Cheers, RickO

  • WeissWeiss Posts: 9,934 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The gold market is being led (or at least the perception is that it is being led) by Asia and India, and by electronic gold markets. Those regions and traders don't understand anything but pure gold. The introduction of .999 pure gold bullion coins, and now .9999 and even .99999 pure gold coins by the major mints of the world seems to confirm this. If demand, or the perception of demand, is that big buyers want only option A and B and have no interest in options C and D, then premiums will rise on A and B and fall on C and D.

    We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
    --Severian the Lame
  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 9,964 ✭✭✭✭✭

    .999 coins are pretty stupid for most people. 1 oz. that is in a slab is fine but if they are loose they are going to get scratched pretty quick then some clown is going to want to beat you up on resale as if they no longer weigh an ounce somehow. I would buy the 1 oz buffalos in slabs , maybe the maples.

    1 oz. .999 , .999 bars obviously but fractional .999 is completely stupid paying the .999 premium then slabbing 10 tenths to protect them is a giant waste of money. Even if you do have them in slabs expect dealers to spin you a yarn about how maples are not in demand or even if they are in a slab they could be counterfeit , because the dealers brothers cousins roommate saw a fake maple in a pcgs slab once.

    Its a variation of the sob story dealers give you when you try to sell them war nickles oh 60% of spot is the best I can do . because , you know , they are so hard to refine wink wink .

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,110 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Part of the earlier demand for "bullion" saints and liberties was the belief that they would be exempt from a gold confiscation. Possible that this fear has been overcome.

    The decline from democracy to tyranny is both a natural and inevitable one.

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's all about aggregate (and tempero-spacial) supply and demand. The world itself is awash in all forms of gold and silver, it's no surprise that common, boring, and easy to find items are in less overall demand than more scarce, attractive, and "neat" items. As we've said in the related "enough" silver thread, many PM investors who are informed about "spreads" and "premiums" are satiated, and the "profit" is made in the arbitrage of getting Neat stuff for Common price and then selling it to the better-paying market of collectors, as well as large firms selling Stuff on TV to newbies, and buying Stuff from the public, generally and tragically referred to the Widows and Orphans market.

    Oh, and LOL to war nickles [sic] yep, they're generally discounted and so are 40% halves, I notice no one shows either of those in the weekly Porn, funny how it's 18th century beer steins and 25 oz Engelhard bars now, isn't it? Neat!

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bronco2078 said:
    .999 coins are pretty stupid for most people. 1 oz. that is in a slab is fine but if they are loose they are going to get scratched pretty quick then some clown is going to want to beat you up on resale as if they no longer weigh an ounce somehow. I would buy the 1 oz buffalos in slabs , maybe the maples.

    1 oz. .999 , .999 bars obviously but fractional .999 is completely stupid paying the .999 premium then slabbing 10 tenths to protect them is a giant waste of money. Even if you do have them in slabs expect dealers to spin you a yarn about how maples are not in demand or even if they are in a slab they could be counterfeit , because the dealers brothers cousins roommate saw a fake maple in a pcgs slab once.

    Its a variation of the sob story dealers give you when you try to sell them war nickles oh 60% of spot is the best I can do . because , you know , they are so hard to refine wink wink .

    Put them into a 2 x 2 and then into a flip and no scratcho. The lion's share of "damaged" bullion is caused by careless handling from dealers and non-dealers/stackers. The drawback to Maples is that they are subject to IRS reporting 1099-B if you buy or sell 25 or more at a time or engage in what could be construed as "related" transactions.

  • rawteam1rawteam1 Posts: 2,472 ✭✭✭

    @bronco2078 said:

    Its a variation of the sob story dealers give you when you try to sell them war nickles oh 60% of spot is the best I can do . because , you know , they are so hard to refine wink wink .

    Whose paying 60% of spot for war nicks???

    Real People actually pay more???? Please pm me asap on who does, thanks...

    keceph `anah
  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 9,964 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @rawteam1 said:

    @bronco2078 said:

    Its a variation of the sob story dealers give you when you try to sell them war nickles oh 60% of spot is the best I can do . because , you know , they are so hard to refine wink wink .

    Whose paying 60% of spot for war nicks???

    Real People actually pay more???? Please pm me asap on who does, thanks...

    B) Oh I'm in agreement , they are ugly silver for sure I just never bought the sob stories about the poor smelters I don't think anyone ever melts them they just bag them up and sell them out the back door before you have driven out of the parking lot

  • renman95renman95 Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭✭✭

    MS63 & MS64 Indians, both $2-1/2 and $5, are dirt cheap when one looks at their 10 year chart in the PCGS Price Guide. $2-1/2's have dropped from roughly $3k to less than $800 on some more common dates!

  • rawteam1rawteam1 Posts: 2,472 ✭✭✭

    When gold hit 1000, then 1200 that put the charts going forward meaningless as they are hype marketing charts, those marketing runs may never happen again...

    keceph `anah
  • shorecollshorecoll Posts: 5,445 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I also think the average person has no idea just how many millions of $20s were/are stashed in European bank vaults. Maybe a 6% premium is too high.

    ANA-LM, NBS, EAC
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,301 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2017 5:45PM

    Many "better" date AGEs and Plats have also lost premium, even in higher graded slabs, so it seems likely that collectibles in general have lost premium. When I bought the only two Saints that I've ever owned, I recall that the premium on that type of bullion was quite high - I'm guessing 20% or more, which is why I started buying AGEs when they were introduced. The premiums were much lower on AGEs. I would speculate that the lower graded generic Saints are becoming more like bullion again, rather than collectibles. Competition for bullion business in addition to lower demand will drive premiums down.

    As long as most people are happy with the stock market, we can also assume that some investment demand for metals is continually being siphoned off. Remember that the metals are not a very big capital market, so demand can shift in either direction without much effort until you reach a baseline level. We have been at a baseline level for a few years, imo. It's terrible if you expected to strike paydirt and retire in luxury quickly, not quite so bad if you are a stacker.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,794 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Walmart pricing caused this. Everyone gets it for less.

  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 20, 2017 1:41PM

    Laura's answer is not even in the ball park.

    Simply put:

    1. Massive gradeflation that caused nearly all of these to peak in price back in April/May 2006 when gold was only $435/oz. Look at the pop reports as the grades of 64-66 grew disproportionately to the 61-63 grades. The $20's and some of the $10's got a reprieve and continued higher into 2011 with the price of gold. A solid MS63 $10 Indian from say 2002 is probably now a MS64. Bulk gold submissions haven't hurt the gradeflation either.
    2. Continuing inflows from Europe and other regions around the world (slabbed supply increases yet near constant demand)
    3. CAC. There's a reason why CAC only stickers 3-6% of MS65 Saints and maybe only 15-30% of 63's and 64's.
    4. The coin market in general peaked in 2006-2008. Generic Choice/Gem gold coins did the same thing. And have yet to recover.
    5. What goes down in price, keeps going down until all the weak hands have bailed out and no one sees any potential ahead.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A point that Legend also glossed over was what were the best performing coins in the rare coin market from 2001-2011 that were easily available, that anyone could buy?

    MS63/64 $20 Libs and Saints. The common slabbed MS63 $20 Libs increased from $400-450 to approx $2100 during that run. 90% silver coin and plain old bullion would have been an even better value than most any rare coins, at far less risk. The inconvenient truth for rare coin dealers was the bullion collectors blew them away. You never saw that written about in their "market reviews."

    While maybe it was true that "collectors" wanted better coins, it was the common gold coins, and generics that performed the best for a decade. If you held a rare 1878 MS65 $3 gold from 2006 to 2011 you would have only lost around 50% of the value....while a common MS63 $20 LIb went up 4X. The "rarer" coin is not always the better choice. Specifically, a large % of post-1880 better date $10/$20 gold coins got hammered and lost much or most of their premium as the price of gold rose from $435 to $1920....or being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Even with the price of gold peeling back some 40-45%, most of those same coins failed to recover much of those former premiums.

    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:

    As for stackers, IMO common saints have never been a good bullion play. Much better bang for the buck with modern gold.

    There have been periods when common saints have outperformed bullion. One such instance occurred from the $681 gold bottom in Oct 2008 to the next peak in Nov 2009 at $1226. I do know that common MS64 Saints were fetching approx $2000-$2100 at that time and MS65's around $2500-$2600. The MS64's were selling for 80% of MS65 price, probably their highest premium factor of the past several decades. Even the 1 oz gold AGE's in boxes were going for $2400-$2500.

    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 9,964 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @roadrunner said:
    A point that Legend also glossed over was what were the best performing coins in the rare coin market from 2001-2011 that were easily available, that anyone could buy?

    MS63/64 $20 Libs and Saints. The common slabbed MS63 $20 Libs increased from $400-450 to approx $2100 during that run. 90% silver coin and plain old bullion would have been an even better value than most any rare coins, at far less risk. The inconvenient truth for rare coin dealers was the bullion collectors blew them away. You never saw that written about in their "market reviews."

    While maybe it was true that "collectors" wanted better coins, it was the common gold coins, and generics that performed the best for a decade. If you held a rare 1878 MS65 $3 gold from 2006 to 2011 you would have only lost around 50% of the value....while a common MS63 $20 LIb went up 4X. The "rarer" coin is not always the better choice. Specifically, a large % of post-1880 better date $10/$20 gold coins got hammered and lost much or most of their premium as the price of gold rose from $435 to $1920....or being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Even with the price of gold peeling back some 40-45%, most of those same coins failed to recover much of those former premiums.

    Agreed plenty of geniuses carefully selecting certain dates grades slabs etc were blown away by stackers that bought sacks of circulated 90% silver held it for a few years and sold at the right time. It's not glamorous enough for some people .

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Precious metals hibernate long periods, and wake up and roar once every 30 years or so for a couple of years.

    Meanwhile, in addition to historically more reliable capital gains and historically lower volatility and long times being dead money, stocks pay quarterly dividends year after year, and real estate landlords collect monthly rent checks.

    Gee whiz, I'm pushing 50 and sure hope I live long enough to see a new high in gold and silver before I see the grim reaper.

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Baley said:
    Precious metals hibernate long periods, and wake up and roar once every 30 years or so for a couple of years.

    Meanwhile, in addition to historically more reliable capital gains and historically lower volatility and long times being dead money, stocks pay quarterly dividends year after year, and real estate landlords collect monthly rent checks.

    Gee whiz, I'm pushing 50 and sure hope I live long enough to see a new high in gold and silver before I see the grim reaper.

    How bout just high enough to sell your stash at a profit, unless you're into a lot of it at the old high.

  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 26, 2017 10:46AM

    I believe a LOT of new material is coming from overseas.

    I know my morning emails have pretty large quantities on offer.

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,549 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @topstuf said:
    I believe a LOT of new material is coming from overseas.

    I know my morning emails have pretty large quantities on offer.

    Why aren't the Europeans buying it? Do they have confidence in the Euro?

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @topstuf said:
    I believe a LOT of new material is coming from overseas.

    I know my morning emails have pretty large quantities on offer.

    What are they offering? Saints?

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,110 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The decline from democracy to tyranny is both a natural and inevitable one.

  • rawteam1rawteam1 Posts: 2,472 ✭✭✭

    Your like 10-20 + years late to his party...

    keceph `anah
  • jdimmickjdimmick Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭

    had a guy come by last thur with 46 $20 libs, just run of mill. Called to see a major player we do business with's buying price, couldnt do it, no money left. they told me they had over 7k 20's in stock at that moment with few buyers.
    They also told me they had over 40k generic silver dollars as well in stock with few buyers

  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 9,964 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jdimmick said:
    had a guy come by last thur with 46 $20 libs, just run of mill. Called to see a major player we do business with's buying price, couldnt do it, no money left. they told me they had over 7k 20's in stock at that moment with few buyers.
    They also told me they had over 40k generic silver dollars as well in stock with few buyers

    What do you mean by generic silver dollars? Like the circulated $20 a piece by the sackful kind? Or slabbed common date type stuff that sell one at a time to collector types?

  • rawteam1rawteam1 Posts: 2,472 ✭✭✭
    edited February 27, 2017 2:13PM

    Raw 21 Morgan's common date raw Morgan's also...

    keceph `anah
  • rawteam1rawteam1 Posts: 2,472 ✭✭✭

    N raw peace commons...

    keceph `anah
  • hchcoinhchcoin Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jdimmick said:
    had a guy come by last thur with 46 $20 libs, just run of mill. Called to see a major player we do business with's buying price, couldnt do it, no money left. they told me they had over 7k 20's in stock at that moment with few buyers.
    They also told me they had over 40k generic silver dollars as well in stock with few buyers

    That's a lot of working capital tied up in inventory. Wow.

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jdimmick said:
    had a guy come by last thur with 46 $20 libs, just run of mill. Called to see a major player we do business with's buying price, couldnt do it, no money left. they told me they had over 7k 20's in stock at that moment with few buyers.
    They also told me they had over 40k generic silver dollars as well in stock with few buyers

    Well, they just need to drop the price and watch them fly out of inventory!

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • hchcoinhchcoin Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I was thinking the same thing as Baley

  • bluelobsterbluelobster Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭

    If the premium has collapsed on classic, seems like that's where I'd like to buy.
    Of course, I'd still rather own generic classic anyway.

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,549 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Baley said:

    @jdimmick said:
    had a guy come by last thur with 46 $20 libs, just run of mill. Called to see a major player we do business with's buying price, couldnt do it, no money left. they told me they had over 7k 20's in stock at that moment with few buyers.
    They also told me they had over 40k generic silver dollars as well in stock with few buyers

    Well, they just need to drop the price and watch them fly out of inventory!

    Would that be price manipulation?

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,110 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 27, 2017 8:20PM

    @cohodk said:
    Many generic pre-33 gold coins (even Uncs) can be purchased at very low premium to melt. Why is this? Why such low premium?

    Premiums are the direct result of demand. Demand has shifted to "more gold for the dollar" offered by modern gold bullion.

    While premiums may have come down on the $20 coins (.9675 oz. gold content), they are still higher than the premium for modern bullion (1 full oz. gold content) when comparing dollars per gold oz. For the stacker, common date $20 gold is still a more expensive alternative than modern gold bullion coins.

    Maybe most buyers who were buying common date $20 gold for their gold content have learned that AGEs and gold buffalos give them more bang for their buck. I did - replaced all my common date saints with AGEs years ago and ended up with more gold.

    The decline from democracy to tyranny is both a natural and inevitable one.

  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cohodk said:

    @Baley said:

    @jdimmick said:
    had a guy come by last thur with 46 $20 libs, just run of mill. Called to see a major player we do business with's buying price, couldnt do it, no money left. they told me they had over 7k 20's in stock at that moment with few buyers.
    They also told me they had over 40k generic silver dollars as well in stock with few buyers

    Well, they just need to drop the price and watch them fly out of inventory!

    Would that be price manipulation?

    More like financial hara kiri.

  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cohodk said:

    @Baley said:

    @jdimmick said:
    had a guy come by last thur with 46 $20 libs, just run of mill. Called to see a major player we do business with's buying price, couldnt do it, no money left. they told me they had over 7k 20's in stock at that moment with few buyers.
    They also told me they had over 40k generic silver dollars as well in stock with few buyers

    Well, they just need to drop the price and watch them fly out of inventory!

    Would that be price manipulation?

    SHEESH! When APMEX has a sale end at of the month, I've never heard it referred to as price manipulation.

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,549 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BAJJERFAN said:

    @cohodk said:

    @Baley said:

    @jdimmick said:
    had a guy come by last thur with 46 $20 libs, just run of mill. Called to see a major player we do business with's buying price, couldnt do it, no money left. they told me they had over 7k 20's in stock at that moment with few buyers.
    They also told me they had over 40k generic silver dollars as well in stock with few buyers

    Well, they just need to drop the price and watch them fly out of inventory!

    Would that be price manipulation?

    SHEESH! When APMEX has a sale end at of the month, I've never heard it referred to as price manipulation.

    Apmex is still selling it for more than spot. Suppose they sold it for spot minus 79c?

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 28, 2017 1:04PM

    @cohodk said:

    @BAJJERFAN said:

    @cohodk said:

    @Baley said:

    @jdimmick said:
    had a guy come by last thur with 46 $20 libs, just run of mill. Called to see a major player we do business with's buying price, couldnt do it, no money left. they told me they had over 7k 20's in stock at that moment with few buyers.
    They also told me they had over 40k generic silver dollars as well in stock with few buyers

    Well, they just need to drop the price and watch them fly out of inventory!

    Would that be price manipulation?

    SHEESH! When APMEX has a sale end at of the month, I've never heard it referred to as price manipulation.

    Apmex is still selling it for more than spot. Suppose they sold it for spot minus 79c?

    Well, you do what you need to do to move inventory. If 79 cents under is more than your cost, I'd have no issue with that. I suppose if you're doing it to undercut a few competitors, it could be construed as being manipulation, but I can't see them manipulating the market as a whole. Then again if their actions don't affect the spot price, they aren't manipulating anything.

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,549 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If they sold it for spot minus 79c, what would be the true value of silver? Spot -79c, spot, or spot +79c?

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 9,964 ✭✭✭✭✭

    As far as gold I'd always go with the old stuff over modern. Theres no upside with modern. Its souless drab dime a dozen pick your adjective. Always get pre 1933 and you can have the opportunity to be a salesman at some later date and sell into some sort of demand or fall back on spot if that doesn't materialize . A modern AGE is just a lump , no one example means anything more than another. No history behind it , no date means anything to anyone no one will demand 2014's over 2010's who cares . Fungible is fine at melt but for a premium over spot ? Nope.

    Silver dollars hold premium better than ASE's too , I don't see that going away either.

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