@coincommando said:
Hey Roadrunner, I missed it, did you build Norweb, Pogue, Eliasberg, or any one significant? How much biz have you done w/the real dealers of today? A few million? Are you in the top 5 of any registry?
I promise, we will meet. Maybe then you'll realize, you don't know all that much compared to others. Its one thing to give an opinion, but to act like you are the source of all knowing-please.....
I can about guarantee you we will never meet. Can only claim to have attended the Norweb and Eliasberg auctions and successfully won some coins. How about you? Please don't ask me any more questions that your highness won't answer when the tables are reversed. I don't purport to be smarter than anyone around here, other than yourself, on this particular topic whenever you stick your foot in your mouth. There are hundreds of dealers and collectors out in the world than I know are better than me in the area of gem 19th century type. Since when does building collections for someone mean they are better than the next guy? I've seen some sub par collections come to market built by well known dealers. What does it prove? Some place only PCGS-CAC coins into sets now and claim that's proof they are top notch "set builders."
Registry set? I don't have enough money to build a top gem seated quarter or half dollar set...or a type set. I realized that back in 1983 when I decided to go after single finest knowns rather than a complete set in lower quality. My choice. It's a free world. Do you think the only way to be viable as a collector is having a top ranked REG set? Really? Too funny...and sad at the same time. I'd bet most here would disagree with you.
If I had a spare couple $MILL, I'd probably be up there on a top REG set list. I bought numerous finest known MS seated coins over the years, many of them in the raw days when there were fewer safety nets. A half dozen or more of them ended up with Gene Gardner. One with Pogue. One with Bruce (TDN). Some with Oliver Jung, Jim Swan, and others. Nice to know my coins were good enough for those guys too. What finest known coins have you owned as part of your collection? What big sets have they ended up in? Any of your coins ended up with Pogue, Gardner, etc. I know you won't answer. Overall I probably bought and sold $2 MILL in choice/gem type coins, all with the REAL dealers of today...excluding those now deceased of course. The same thing I told you in a previous post....you just don't comprehend or listen. I know where I stand in the scheme of the market....always have. Never had any delusions of grandeur. I just plugged along competing where I could successfully compete.
From the hundred or more major dealers I've dealt with over the years, I'm comfortable that my experiences gave me ample exposure to the market to talk accurately about it and fully understand the inner workings. I know what I know. Most of the top dealers out there would say the same. It's about as simple as that. Posting what you know isn't a competition. It's more a matter of facts and records. You state the wrong facts (fake news)...then I'll correct it. State the right facts, and I'll back you up. Can't get any more plain than that. Feel free to tell me what I don't know. If I don't know it...I'll admit it. If I do know...you'll get a swift kick in the butt on why I do know it.
Amazing that you can ask me questions with a stoned face...and answer nothing of your supposed market "skills" and "experiences." I don't recall seeing you when I was bidding at James Stack, Norweb, Eliasberg, Queller, Vermeulle, S. Benton Emery, and other major old time collections. Were you hiding behind the potted plant?
CoinCommando, not another probe about my experiences, background until you post your resume here. A partial would suffice. If you don't, then your charade will be that more visible. I know you won't though. What are you hiding from Mr. Big Shot behind the green curtain? Are you a coin doc? Alt ID? Just here to pull levers?
@Sonorandesertrat said:
RR,
Some comments, and no disrespect to EG (I have purchased some VERY nice coins from him). But...like most dealers, he has had some funky coins for sale on occasion. He complained bitterly about CAC when the stickers began to appear on slabs, likely because this made his position as a dealer more difficult. With a 'little bit' of due diligence? Really? That's not how I approach a purchase.
If a foolproof method appeared to stop the crack-out game, as well as discontinue crossovers with minimum grades set by submitters, etc. (and other schemes that bias the grades awarded), then perhaps the market would become a bit more normal.
I agree with that. I didn't buy coins from EG but often scoured his inventory to see what he was doing. I know he worked for a number of years as primary buyer for other coin firms before going out on his own. That's when I first ran into him. Must be doing something right selling higher end coins for strong money for so many years.
One of our other members just PM'd me about current activities in the crossing/upgrade saga at the TPGs. It wasn't the best of news. But not unexpected either. To stop the crack-outs and resubmits means less revenue to the TPG's. I don't think they'd approve. The NGC bias is the much bigger problem imo as there are 30+ MILL slabs out there being treated as second class citizens by the majority of the market elite. It doesn't matter if it's deserved or not, it's what it is. You can't have half of ANY market in distress and say things will work out fine. I have no clue what the end game will be. I leave that to futurists like Jim Halperin. You can bet he knows. Even if every NGC coin was crossed or lowered into a PCGS holder things would be fine right? Well, not from the standpoint that the PCGS pops would basically double...meaning double the market supply. Coins that were previously not available to PCGS only players, now flood in. CoinCommando would call that a good thing....more PCGS-CAC coins....resulting in the lowering of PCGS-CAC prices.....oops...maybe not so good after all.
You mean it ended?......but, it really can't end until Kemosabe unmasks their identity. That's the least they owe us. Time to start a poll as to who it might be?
@stman said:
What a hoot. If you pound your chest in the forest...... will it make a sound?
In the case of CoinCommando I don't think so. Because he's an imaginery entity right now. A figment of our imagination. A spirit. If stman pounded their chest in the forest...it would make a sound....THUMP...THUMP. I am sure of that as Russian AGI seismic monitors would pick up the above background SPL levels.
I have no idea what your babbling about now. I sure would like to know where all your numbers come from. Oh you did say you talk to a dealer a couple times a year. Of course nobody calls you out. Your rambling on and on I'm sure nobody wants to bother. But boy look at this thread. You have completely lost it. But please do keep speaking into the microphone.
You should be a politician. Now I have to run so make sure you flip out on me now and make post after post and follow me around and comment with your BS like you have before.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
No fears Stman, you've been on my IGNORE list here since the new program hit. Congrats. You made the top 5. I only put you on speaker phone today just to see what gibberish you'd be spouting in this contentious thread, as I knew you'd attack me, and not any of the ideas posted here. You're fine though. Sending you back to the CORNFIELD so I don't have suffer your replies in any more threads I read. It takes a real man to make the IGNORE list. Good for you. More people here should use it. Feel free to add me to yours...I'd appreciate it. Your "tree in the woods" analogy was par for the course. Too bad too cuz every once in a while you "used to" post some worthwhile stuff.
My only complaint is that the site only allows 5 people to ignore and my list is FULL up. I have to make space for CoinCommando after this thread is poofed. But rest assured Stman you'll remain on it. Someone else will get to come back into the light of day. Lights out for you bub....bye, bye. And CC, when I don't recognize your posts a few days down the road....it's not that I don't love you or anything or don't want to tussle...I just won't be able to read/understand what you'll be saying. Which is pretty much how it is know any ways. So what's the difference???
Good. I knew you had me on ignore. I would ignore you but the entertainment value is priceless. I guess that makes one a tough guy to put someone on ignore and state it in CAPS. Could YOU be the problem and not nobody else? Naw, You just like to dance around these threads and spout what you always do. I'll stop now if possible because I don't want to be blamed for any stroke or heart attack that you might have. You do flip out with any dissent.
BTW, you're the one that has taken this thread on your direction, as you always do.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
@stman said:
I have no idea what your babbling about now. I sure would like to know where all your numbers come from. Oh you did say you talk to a dealer a couple times a year. Of course nobody calls you out. Your rambling on and on I'm sure nobody wants to bother. But boy look at this thread. You have completely lost it. But please do keep speaking into the microphone.
You should be a politician. Now I have to run so make sure you flip out on me now and make post after post and follow me around and comment with your BS like you have before.
If stman thinks RR is really full of it, this may well be the pot-kettle-black watershed moment he's surely been looking for all his life. LOL!
I'll come back and read your gibberish later. Maybe when you're done editing, if it ever ends. Now I'm stupid eh? I would like to call you for what you are IMO, but I won't give you the satisfaction. You're so intelligent to call me stupid. Now ya gotta brag on putting people on ignore. What's the % of that with folks on the board. What would it have been in 1q972 September. Sure you have all the data. What a load.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
@stman said:
Good. I knew you had me on ignore. I would ignore you but the entertainment value is priceless. I guess that makes one a tough guy to put someone on ignore and state it in CAPS. Could YOU be the problem and not nobody else? Naw, You just like to dance around these threads and spout what you always do. I'll stop now if possible because I don't want to be blamed for any stroke or heart attack that you might have. You do flip out with any dissent.
BTW, you're the one that has taken this thread on your direction, as you always do.
@stman said:
I have no idea what your babbling about now. I sure would like to know where all your numbers come from. Oh you did say you talk to a dealer a couple times a year. Of course nobody calls you out. Your rambling on and on I'm sure nobody wants to bother. But boy look at this thread. You have completely lost it. But please do keep speaking into the microphone.
You should be a politician. Now I have to run so make sure you flip out on me now and make post after post and follow me around and comment with your BS like you have before.
If stman thinks RR is really full of it, this may well be the pot-kettle-black watershed moment he's surely been looking for all his life. LOL!
Now you want to come back at me. Can you verify all the numbers and % given by your hero. Didn't think so. Just you wanting to be a gang mentality.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
I'm tired of waiting for CC to show back up. So I'll expedite his IGNORE move to right now. It's not like he's going to come back with anything intelligible or factual after a couple days of spewing sticker luv. If others want to continue the discussion I'm fine with that. But anything else from CC is blank space to me. He owes me though for bumping his post cost from 9 to 29. Talk about grade inflation!!! Great Caesar's Ghost!
@stman said:
I have no idea what your babbling about now. I sure would like to know where all your numbers come from. Oh you did say you talk to a dealer a couple times a year. Of course nobody calls you out. Your rambling on and on I'm sure nobody wants to bother. But boy look at this thread. You have completely lost it. But please do keep speaking into the microphone.
You should be a politician. Now I have to run so make sure you flip out on me now and make post after post and follow me around and comment with your BS like you have before.
If stman thinks RR is really full of it, this may well be the pot-kettle-black watershed moment he's surely been looking for all his life. LOL!
Now you want to come back at me. Can you verify all the numbers and % given by your hero. Didn't think so. Just you wanting to be a gang mentality.
Can one person form a gang? Let's put it this way; I would sooner trust the numbers RR puts out there than anything "cool guy" might offer up.
@stman said:
Good. I knew you had me on ignore. I would ignore you but the entertainment value is priceless. I guess that makes one a tough guy to put someone on ignore and state it in CAPS. Could YOU be the problem and not nobody else? Naw, You just like to dance around these threads and spout what you always do. I'll stop now if possible because I don't want to be blamed for any stroke or heart attack that you might have. You do flip out with any dissent.
BTW, you're the one that has taken this thread on your direction, as you always do.
Stman. Cool guy!
Oh, I understand silly little reference.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
@stman said:
I have no idea what your babbling about now. I sure would like to know where all your numbers come from. Oh you did say you talk to a dealer a couple times a year. Of course nobody calls you out. Your rambling on and on I'm sure nobody wants to bother. But boy look at this thread. You have completely lost it. But please do keep speaking into the microphone.
You should be a politician. Now I have to run so make sure you flip out on me now and make post after post and follow me around and comment with your BS like you have before.
If stman thinks RR is really full of it, this may well be the pot-kettle-black watershed moment he's surely been looking for all his life. LOL!
Now you want to come back at me. Can you verify all the numbers and % given by your hero. Didn't think so. Just you wanting to be a gang mentality.
Can one person form a gang? Let's put it this way; I would sooner trust the numbers RR puts out there than anything "cool guy" might offer up.
Blind trust gotta love it. BTW, if you think you can get me to flip out over your code name calling I'm not like you hero. So, like I thought, you can't verify what you stick up for. What a load you are too.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
SpaceHayDuke: RR, you are making a fairly strong statement here that would cover the collective US coin market that NGC coins with stickers sell for less than PCGS coins with stickers. I would love to see hard statistics on that for all series, grades, etc
There is a difference between noting that PCGS-CAC coins, ON AVERAGE, sell for more than NGC-CAC coins, and asserting that they almost always do so. The distinction between an average for a group and the characteristics of an individual is central to understanding markets for rare or scarce coins. There are some NGC-CAC coins that sell for more than corresponding PCGS-CAC coins.
BigJpst: Sorry if you think you know what I was suggesting. CAC may have hundreds of millions of dollars in bids but many are in coins that are commonly traded (i.e. Morgan Dollars) and generics. His bids are for many different grades for the same date/mm. Yes there are better dates and non generic coins.
Sorry, I should have worded my response without a reference to possible suggestions by BigJpst. It is plausible that someone reading BigJpst's statement, which I cited earlier in this thread, might think that CAC only posts sight unseen bids on generics or relatively common classic U.S. coins. My point was that there are many CAC bids for better date coins, too. Moreover, even if there is not a posted bid, CAC will often offer competitive prices for better date coins and rarities that are stickered. JA has strongly indicated to me that he is willing to pay the same amounts for NGC-CAC as for PCGS-CAC. The fact that there are others who will pay more for PCGS graded coins than for NGC graded coins is beside the point.
Roadrunner: The identical non-generic, choice/gem MS/PF coin moved from one holder to the other, will sell for 10-40% less in NGC plastic....15-20% is probably typical.
As Roadrunner is referring to coins that are or can be "moved from one holder to the other" at the same grade level, wholesalers would recognize these as coins that are likely "to cross"! For coins that are worth more than $2500, would grading-wholesalers, many of whom participate in auctions, be willing to pay 80% to 95% of the PCGS value for the NGC certified coins in this category defined by Roadrunner, given Roadrunner's terminology and parameters. If a few collectors are willing to pay even more than the wholesalers, which is not unusual, would many of the NGC certified coins then realize just as much as they would if they were in PCGS holders or at least 90% as much?
As so many dealers make a large part of their respective 'living' by submitting coins to PCGS and NGC, and IF Roadrunner thinks that most auction results are reflective of market levels (which I am not saying), how can Roadrunner conclude that the same exact coin would 'typically' be worth 15-20% less, and sometimes 40% less, if it is NGC graded X rather than PCGS graded X, assuming that it would be PCGS graded X if submitted? In Roadrunner's interpretation of market realities, would these coins be spotted by at least some grading-wholesalers as coins that would cross into PCGS holders and would they then bid accordingly?
My opinion is that there are too many variables relating to individual coins for such conclusions to be drawn There is also a need to regard coins as individuals, as most collectors do. Statistical averages are misleading in regard to rare or scarce coins.
Also, I am concerned that some members of this forum, thought perhaps not Roadrunner, have a tendency to refer to all auction prices as market prices. At a minimum, a distinction must be made between auction results that are wholesale prics and those that are retail prices.
A lot of blank spaces in this thread now. Hey Stman, don't forget to CORNFIELD me as well. I wouldn't want to offend your sensitive ears in the future.
Analyst smelled our blood in the water. But I just don't have the stamina to readdress everything over again. Maybe in the next one.
@roadrunner said:
A lot of blank spaces in this thread now. Hey Stman, don't forget to CORNFIELD me as well. I wouldn't want you to hurt your ears in the future.
Yet, you still had to say something. hahahahaha
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
@Analyst said: Roadrunner: Writing and talking to dealers isn't nearly the same thing. I've been a dealer for a total of 11 years, 5 of those were full time. Doing the actual buying and selling transactions, and focusing on NGC coins is far different than research and talk.
For starters, I do a considerable amount of consulting work regarding rarities. I am not just reporting and talking. I am involved in many ways.
Roadrunner does not have a web site, and has not published views outside of message boards, as far as I know. If he set up, or was othewise active, at the recent FUN and ANA Conventions, I was unaware of his presence, though I would be delighted to meet him. I acknowledge that he knows a great deal about Liberty Seated coins, which are among my favorites.
At major events, I am there viewing the coins 'in person.' In many cases, I viewed every pre-1880 silver or gold coin in Platinum Night or Rarities Night events. Has Roadrunner recently viewed FUN Platinum Night lots, Pogue Collection lots, or SBG Rarities Night lots? Has he been closely examining coins at major conventions? I do not know.
Roadrunner: My reliable sources were the many dozens of dealers who I bought and sold with.
So, now, an anonymous participant on message boards is declaring the existence of presumably well informed, anonymous sources. In my articles, I have quoted many leading dealers and many of the sharpest graders. It is indisputable that I have many such sources.
Roadrunner: ... an unstickered NGC MS66 seated quarter brings approx PCGS 65+ money ...
There are NGC MS-66 quarters that have crossed into PCGS holders as MS-66. One that "brings approximately 65+ money" might be a coin that most relevant experts really do grade as 65, rather than as 66. Such a price might relate to the coin, not the holder, in many (not all) pertinent instances.
Roadrunner: The identical non-generic, choice/gem MS/PF coin moved from one holder to the other, will sell for 10-40% less in NGC plastic....15-20% is probably typical.
Where is the data to support such sweeping generalizations? Wholesalers 'cross coins' into PCGS holders all the time and pay competitive prices for them. As Roadrunner implies, there are many NGC coins that have failed to cross and thus would not be included in the group covered by this rather far reaching statement regarding the value of PCGS holders.
Even if Roadrunners' percentages are accurate, this would be a half-truth that is misleading; it does not make sense to draw conclusions about individuals from numerical averages. This kind of use of averages leads some people to buy CAC coins without ever looking closely at the coins. Because CAC coins do and should sell for more, ON AVERAGE, it does not follow that all CAC coins should or will sell for more.
No grading service can bat 1.000. In the future, grading practices and certification realities will change. From posts in other threads, I get the impression that Roadrunner seems upset that Roadrunner focused on NGC holders from 1988 to 2002 and then accrued less revenue than he expected when he sold his coins later in the last decade, in the "world" after CAC was founded.
Speculating in coin holders is like speculating in commodities markets; in some cases, smart and knowledgeable speculators will lose. The batting average analogy is extremely applicable to coin grading, and coin enthusiasts should focus on coins, not on holders, IMO. Also, there are many non-investing collectors or long-term investors. Roadrunner keeps focusing on speculating in holders.
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Thanks MJ. And I lost my share of skin over the years. Something I don't like to see newbies go through in this day and age. I never bothered to record every number associated with my 55 years in coins. But probably should have so I could be able to present it all here for thorough analysis and extreme vetting. Imagine the years that would have taken...lol. My best recollection and review of the records I do have is the best I can give. Mea Culpa. Those who don't buy into it can certainly present their own facts and experiences to counter.
Do note that those Analyst comments of "1.000 batting average analogy" from his earlier post along with something about "me and NGC going back from 1988-2002" is pure bunk. Asked, answered, and addressed in great detail in my earlier reply to those comments. I won't address them again....though I did just fine with NGC coins from 1988-2002. The real issue was selling NGC coins in the post-CAC world, no matter how nice or even if stickered. Thank you. Resume your normal programming.
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@stman said:
I have no idea what your babbling about now. I sure would like to know where all your numbers come from. Oh you did say you talk to a dealer a couple times a year. Of course nobody calls you out. Your rambling on and on I'm sure nobody wants to bother. But boy look at this thread. You have completely lost it. But please do keep speaking into the microphone.
You should be a politician. Now I have to run so make sure you flip out on me now and make post after post and follow me around and comment with your BS like you have before.
If stman thinks RR is really full of it, this may well be the pot-kettle-black watershed moment he's surely been looking for all his life. LOL!
Now you want to come back at me. Can you verify all the numbers and % given by your hero. Didn't think so. Just you wanting to be a gang mentality.
Can one person form a gang? Let's put it this way; I would sooner trust the numbers RR puts out there than anything "cool guy" might offer up.
Blind trust gotta love it. BTW, if you think you can get me to flip out over your code name calling I'm not like you hero. So, like I thought, you can't verify what you stick up for. What a load you are too.
OH goody, that means I'm in good company and doing something right, then. You're my Costanza, stman -- all I need do is the opposite of you and I can't help but succeed.
Those that want to argue/discuss these issues in person I'll be at the March 26th Willimantic, CT coin show from 9-2 pm at the CNI table (barring a monster snow storm). Fair warning. I'll have a dealer next to me with 55 years of crusty skin in the game (100 yrs between us) that has been seriously active since the 1960's in every aspect of the coin market. And he does bullion, paper money, jewelry, guns, antiques, postcards, and other collectibles as well. No Website. Only 3 big shows per year (ANA, FUN, Balty). No major auctions....at least not since 2003. The finest dealer I know or have ever known. Analyst, CC, Stman, all welcome to show up to dispute whatever "tall tales" we claim.
@Analyst said: Roadrunner: Writing and talking to dealers isn't nearly the same thing. I've been a dealer for a total of 11 years, 5 of those were full time. Doing the actual buying and selling transactions, and focusing on NGC coins is far different than research and talk.
For starters, I do a considerable amount of consulting work regarding rarities. I am not just reporting and talking. I am involved in many ways.
Roadrunner does not have a web site, and has not published views outside of message boards, as far as I know. If he set up, or was othewise active, at the recent FUN and ANA Conventions, I was unaware of his presence, though I would be delighted to meet him. I acknowledge that he knows a great deal about Liberty Seated coins, which are among my favorites.
At major events, I am there viewing the coins 'in person.' In many cases, I viewed every pre-1880 silver or gold coin in Platinum Night or Rarities Night events. Has Roadrunner recently viewed FUN Platinum Night lots, Pogue Collection lots, or SBG Rarities Night lots? Has he been closely examining coins at major conventions? I do not know.
Roadrunner: My reliable sources were the many dozens of dealers who I bought and sold with.
So, now, an anonymous participant on message boards is declaring the existence of presumably well informed, anonymous sources. In my articles, I have quoted many leading dealers and many of the sharpest graders. It is indisputable that I have many such sources.
Roadrunner: ... an unstickered NGC MS66 seated quarter brings approx PCGS 65+ money ...
There are NGC MS-66 quarters that have crossed into PCGS holders as MS-66. One that "brings approximately 65+ money" might be a coin that most relevant experts really do grade as 65, rather than as 66. Such a price might relate to the coin, not the holder, in many (not all) pertinent instances.
Roadrunner: The identical non-generic, choice/gem MS/PF coin moved from one holder to the other, will sell for 10-40% less in NGC plastic....15-20% is probably typical.
Where is the data to support such sweeping generalizations? Wholesalers 'cross coins' into PCGS holders all the time and pay competitive prices for them. As Roadrunner implies, there are many NGC coins that have failed to cross and thus would not be included in the group covered by this rather far reaching statement regarding the value of PCGS holders.
Even if Roadrunners' percentages are accurate, this would be a half-truth that is misleading; it does not make sense to draw conclusions about individuals from numerical averages. This kind of use of averages leads some people to buy CAC coins without ever looking closely at the coins. Because CAC coins do and should sell for more, ON AVERAGE, it does not follow that all CAC coins should or will sell for more.
No grading service can bat 1.000. In the future, grading practices and certification realities will change. From posts in other threads, I get the impression that Roadrunner seems upset that Roadrunner focused on NGC holders from 1988 to 2002 and then accrued less revenue than he expected when he sold his coins later in the last decade, in the "world" after CAC was founded.
Speculating in coin holders is like speculating in commodities markets; in some cases, smart and knowledgeable speculators will lose. The batting average analogy is extremely applicable to coin grading, and coin enthusiasts should focus on coins, not on holders, IMO. Also, there are many non-investing collectors or long-term investors. Roadrunner keeps focusing on speculating in holders.
Although I appreciate Mark's attention to my posts, I hope that he reads them. In the post that he graciously cited, I said, For starters, I do a considerable amount of consulting work regarding rarities. I am not just reporting and talking. I am involved in many ways.
Mark may have ignored two pertinent sentences in an earlier post of mine to this thread: Also, from 1987 onward, crackout artists, including coin doctors, were seeking to get coins overgraded, mistakenly graded or 'maxed out' at PCGS or NGC. During the 1990s, I was glad that I was a reporter and researcher regarding such activities rather than a participant. In some ways, such games are very harmful to the coin community and may be unethical.
I am sure what "game" Mark is saying lacks my "skin"! I will not doctor coins or attempt to upgrade doctored coins. I will not play a game to "max out" never doctored coins either. During a period of 25 years, I have been involved in a small number of submissions to PCGS or NGC. I have no interest in being a wholesaler. My readers, clients and friends appreciate the roles that I do play.
@roadrunner said:
CC, it's not personal at all. It's a matter of logic, which you don't seem to understand. You seem fine with the idea that CAC can sell identically graded/quality PCGS/NGC coins for different amounts, yet will pay the same money for them. That's basically screwing any collectors of non-generic coins by settling for less than what they could have gotten for them in the market. ** Regardless of what JA is saying, I don't think he's paying the same price for an NGC MS65 CAC and PCGS MS65 capped bust halves. **
>
@roadrunner said:
Those that want to argue/discuss these issues in person I'll be at the March 26th Willimantic, CT coin show from 9-2 pm at the CNI table (barring a monster snow storm). Fair warning. I'll have a dealer next to me with 55 years of crusty skin in the game (100 yrs between us) that has been seriously active since the 1960's in every aspect of the coin market. And he does bullion, paper money, jewelry, guns, antiques, postcards, and other collectibles as well. No Website. Only 3 big shows per year (ANA, FUN, Balty). No major auctions....at least not since 2003. The finest dealer I know or have ever known. Analyst, CC, Stman, all welcome to show up to dispute whatever "tall tales" we claim.
You are beyond belief. Multiple collectors and dealers have now confirmed that CAC bids are the same. Even TDN has told you you're wrong, and if I am not mistaken, Legend was once an equity partner in CAC. "Your logic" amounts to nothing more than a raw emotional argument on how you think the numismatic world should function. If you cannot understand that there is a difference between idealizations and the real world, perhaps it is you who doesn't understand logic. Instead of accepting multiple corroborations of the same FACT, you have called two major dealers liars and attacked others personally. Flame away; I'm done with this thread.
Greg I do read a lot of your articles. I enjoy them. You're a very talented writer and researcher. However when writing big checks that's when one puts the pedal to the metal and their money where there mouth is. Having skin the game provides a different mindset. It just does. I try to put as many things in my favor as possible and employ as many tools as necessary when buying and selling.
Mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Justacommeman said:
Greg I do read a lot of your articles. I enjoy them. You're a very talented writer and researcher. However when writing big checks that's when one puts the pedal to the metal and their money where there mouth is. I try to put as many things in my favor as possible and employ as many tools as necessary when buying and selling. When pulling the trigger it's just the buyer and the seller.
Mark
The discussion that spiraled out of control wasn't about retail values or resale value... It was about CAC bid values. I think that was lost in the fluff. There is a big difference between Heritage auction value and CAC bid level. As for the PCGS v. NGC disparity, I don't think anyone disputed that in many cases there is an appreciable premium for the PCGS-CAC combination.
As for putting his money where his mouth is, you seem to unfairly single out Greg. There is no evidence of RR being active in the market either. All of his posts seem to fixate on the pre-2008 market with a smattering of posts about 2008-2009. We are not in the market of 2008-2009. I can only wish that we were in the pre-2008 market. I miss the good old days.
@Sonorandesertrat said:
RR,
Some comments, and no disrespect to EG (I have purchased some VERY nice coins from him). But...like most dealers, he has had some funky coins for sale on occasion. He complained bitterly about CAC when the stickers began to appear on slabs, likely because this made his position as a dealer more difficult. With a 'little bit' of due diligence? Really? That's not how I approach a purchase.
If a foolproof method appeared to stop the crack-out game, as well as discontinue crossovers with minimum grades set by submitters, etc. (and other schemes that bias the grades awarded), then perhaps the market would become a bit more normal.
I've had the same experiences regarding this dealer and echo your thoughts . His stance on CAC has soften somewhat on his site at least.
Mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
In essence, he is making an offer on a raw coin from his perspective.
If it's a MS65 with a green CAC, then it's a MS65 coin regardless of the plastic that's surrounding it at the moment.
@TopographicOceans said:
In essence, he is making an offer on a raw coin from his perspective.
If it's a MS65 with a green CAC, then it's a MS65 coin regardless of the plastic that's surrounding it at the moment.
He is vetting the coin to your point.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Per EG: "..so in the year 2525, if man is still alive, we will grade a coin MS65.739265."
I WANT ONE. Don't care what, but I want it NOW. With a CAC v.101 sticker, great-(great)20-greatgrandson of Eagle Eye sticker, and anything else you got.
Having the coin in the holder is optional.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
Well...this was all quite educational. I got back into coins in late 08, just after the market tanked (so I have no first hand knowledge) but it would seem to me that there must have been some implicit bias against NGC products during the last bull market. This then developed into a explicit bias after the market collapse and advent of fourth party grading (CAC).
Can't respond to posts I can't "see." > @Elmhurst said:
Well...this was all quite educational. I got back into coins in late 08, just after the market tanked (so I have no first hand knowledge) but it would seem to me that there must have been some implicit bias against NGC products during the last bull market. This then developed into a explicit bias after the market collapse and advent of fourth party grading (CAC).
There was nothing implicit in the NGC bias from 1998-2008. It was real and mostly deserved. Those coins brought 5-15% less as a rule because generally the grading was less conservative vs. PCGS at least in choice/gem 18th, 19th, and early 20th century type coins. There's always exceptions at both ends though. I did bother me that I had to sell nice NGC coins for a 5-10% discount to PCGS. You always had the option of cracking them out and sending directly to PCGS....and risk a no grade or lower grade for something you missed. For me, I was happy to take the 90-95% in most cases if I didn't send them to auction.
As a single example (of many), look at the pops of MS65 capped bust halves during that 1998-2008 period. NGC made 4X as many MS65's as PCGS did....yet both saw a similar number of overall MS coins. That's just not possible if the standards are identical. You'd have to expect a price discount with 4X as many coins being slabbed....basic supply and demand. As I recall, the NGC MS65 discount was a lot more than 15% because because of that 4X diff.
So the game was to take every 64+ PCGS/NGC CBH and shoot for NGC MS65's....gaining anywhere from 25% to 75% in price. Same game for 63+, 65+ coins. Keep sending them in until they come back 64 and 66. This worked across the entire Type coin spectrum of MS/PF 63-67. That doesn't work very well now as most everyone has caught on, CAC is on patrol, NGC holder bias is much higher than pre-2009, and liquidity today for anything even a little bit off in quality is much lower than 1998-2008.
I don't always agree with Roadrunner, but I will certainly say that he has written many comments---ones that I have been reading for almost 10 years now---that are very much in accord with my experience (which goes back to the late 1960's as far as coins are concerned) and opinions about the numismatic market, grading, etc.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CoinCommando: ... dude lets be positive and make this a better hobby!
This statement is ironic, given that CoinCommando has put forth several insulting or otherwise demeaning remarks in this thread, which are clearly in violation of Don Willis' rules. While there is no evidence yet presented that CoinCommando, an anonymous participant, knows how to grade coins or is a major player, he or she is putting down the members who wish to express their own respective views and have an educational discussion.
CoinCommando: yeah, roadrunner has to be the smart guy of the boards. bad news for him, the market never stopped. maybe he was not as good as he thinks. ...
CoinCommando: roadrunner you probably had your panties in a bunch when 3 rd party grading happened. please spare me. sell your snake oil ideology elsewhere.
CoinCommando: Roadrunner ... to inflict bogus information on others is everything that is wrong here. to anyone with real knowledge your information is not reality. talk in 2017, not 2000 ... You long rants of nonsense numbers and false information are giving me a headache.
CoinCommando: roadrunner and analyst: you two sure talk a big game. either of you active as dealers in today's market? will you be trading away with the big guns in long beach or at ana? do you buy and sell directly with cac? how can you talk so much and spew so much fake news all the time? need your names in print?
Clearly, these are nasty remarks by CoinCommando. People who do not have an understanding of issues often take to insulting people who have different views. Although I do not agree with all of Roadrunner's views, he does make some excellent points and he clearly has an understanding of many aspects of the coin business. I wish to have intelligent and productive debates with knowledgeable numismatists that are not interrupted by malicious people who are far more interested in insulting others than in contributing to discussions. Hopefully, CoinCommando will not start slandering people who disagree with his or her viewpoints. The use of the word 'peddle' in regard to my articles could possibly be regarded as slander.
For more than 25 years, I have been the leader in accurately and fairly reporting news regarding rare, classic U.S. coins. Please consider more than 370 articles on CoinWeek.com , more than fifty articles that were published on CoinLink and hundreds of articles in Numismatic News and other Krause publications.
The following article was the co-winner of the NLG award for the best article about coins to be published on a web site. It is extremely pertinent to this discussion:
Comments
I can about guarantee you we will never meet. Can only claim to have attended the Norweb and Eliasberg auctions and successfully won some coins. How about you? Please don't ask me any more questions that your highness won't answer when the tables are reversed. I don't purport to be smarter than anyone around here, other than yourself, on this particular topic whenever you stick your foot in your mouth. There are hundreds of dealers and collectors out in the world than I know are better than me in the area of gem 19th century type. Since when does building collections for someone mean they are better than the next guy? I've seen some sub par collections come to market built by well known dealers. What does it prove? Some place only PCGS-CAC coins into sets now and claim that's proof they are top notch "set builders."
Registry set? I don't have enough money to build a top gem seated quarter or half dollar set...or a type set. I realized that back in 1983 when I decided to go after single finest knowns rather than a complete set in lower quality. My choice. It's a free world. Do you think the only way to be viable as a collector is having a top ranked REG set? Really? Too funny...and sad at the same time. I'd bet most here would disagree with you.
If I had a spare couple $MILL, I'd probably be up there on a top REG set list. I bought numerous finest known MS seated coins over the years, many of them in the raw days when there were fewer safety nets. A half dozen or more of them ended up with Gene Gardner. One with Pogue. One with Bruce (TDN). Some with Oliver Jung, Jim Swan, and others. Nice to know my coins were good enough for those guys too. What finest known coins have you owned as part of your collection? What big sets have they ended up in? Any of your coins ended up with Pogue, Gardner, etc. I know you won't answer. Overall I probably bought and sold $2 MILL in choice/gem type coins, all with the REAL dealers of today...excluding those now deceased of course. The same thing I told you in a previous post....you just don't comprehend or listen. I know where I stand in the scheme of the market....always have. Never had any delusions of grandeur. I just plugged along competing where I could successfully compete.
From the hundred or more major dealers I've dealt with over the years, I'm comfortable that my experiences gave me ample exposure to the market to talk accurately about it and fully understand the inner workings. I know what I know. Most of the top dealers out there would say the same. It's about as simple as that. Posting what you know isn't a competition. It's more a matter of facts and records. You state the wrong facts (fake news)...then I'll correct it. State the right facts, and I'll back you up. Can't get any more plain than that. Feel free to tell me what I don't know. If I don't know it...I'll admit it. If I do know...you'll get a swift kick in the butt on why I do know it.
Amazing that you can ask me questions with a stoned face...and answer nothing of your supposed market "skills" and "experiences." I don't recall seeing you when I was bidding at James Stack, Norweb, Eliasberg, Queller, Vermeulle, S. Benton Emery, and other major old time collections. Were you hiding behind the potted plant?
CoinCommando, not another probe about my experiences, background until you post your resume here. A partial would suffice. If you don't, then your charade will be that more visible. I know you won't though. What are you hiding from Mr. Big Shot behind the green curtain? Are you a coin doc? Alt ID? Just here to pull levers?
I agree with that. I didn't buy coins from EG but often scoured his inventory to see what he was doing. I know he worked for a number of years as primary buyer for other coin firms before going out on his own. That's when I first ran into him. Must be doing something right selling higher end coins for strong money for so many years.
One of our other members just PM'd me about current activities in the crossing/upgrade saga at the TPGs. It wasn't the best of news. But not unexpected either. To stop the crack-outs and resubmits means less revenue to the TPG's. I don't think they'd approve. The NGC bias is the much bigger problem imo as there are 30+ MILL slabs out there being treated as second class citizens by the majority of the market elite. It doesn't matter if it's deserved or not, it's what it is. You can't have half of ANY market in distress and say things will work out fine. I have no clue what the end game will be. I leave that to futurists like Jim Halperin. You can bet he knows. Even if every NGC coin was crossed or lowered into a PCGS holder things would be fine right? Well, not from the standpoint that the PCGS pops would basically double...meaning double the market supply. Coins that were previously not available to PCGS only players, now flood in. CoinCommando would call that a good thing....more PCGS-CAC coins....resulting in the lowering of PCGS-CAC prices.....oops...maybe not so good after all.
This ended well.
Who says it's ended? I hope CC continues to try to puff his downy feathers, that I might enjoy some more RR insights.
You mean it ended?......but, it really can't end until Kemosabe unmasks their identity. That's the least they owe us. Time to start a poll as to who it might be?
What a hoot. If you pound your chest in the forest...... will it make a sound?
In the case of CoinCommando I don't think so. Because he's an imaginery entity right now. A figment of our imagination. A spirit. If stman pounded their chest in the forest...it would make a sound....THUMP...THUMP. I am sure of that as Russian AGI seismic monitors would pick up the above background SPL levels.
I have no idea what your babbling about now. I sure would like to know where all your numbers come from. Oh you did say you talk to a dealer a couple times a year. Of course nobody calls you out. Your rambling on and on I'm sure nobody wants to bother. But boy look at this thread. You have completely lost it. But please do keep speaking into the microphone.
You should be a politician. Now I have to run so make sure you flip out on me now and make post after post and follow me around and comment with your BS like you have before.
No fears Stman, you've been on my IGNORE list here since the new program hit. Congrats. You made the top 5. I only put you on speaker phone today just to see what gibberish you'd be spouting in this contentious thread, as I knew you'd attack me, and not any of the ideas posted here. You're fine though. Sending you back to the CORNFIELD so I don't have suffer your replies in any more threads I read. It takes a real man to make the IGNORE list. Good for you. More people here should use it. Feel free to add me to yours...I'd appreciate it. Your "tree in the woods" analogy was par for the course. Too bad too cuz every once in a while you "used to" post some worthwhile stuff.
My only complaint is that the site only allows 5 people to ignore and my list is FULL up. I have to make space for CoinCommando after this thread is poofed. But rest assured Stman you'll remain on it. Someone else will get to come back into the light of day. Lights out for you bub....bye, bye. And CC, when I don't recognize your posts a few days down the road....it's not that I don't love you or anything or don't want to tussle...I just won't be able to read/understand what you'll be saying. Which is pretty much how it is know any ways. So what's the difference???
Good. I knew you had me on ignore. I would ignore you but the entertainment value is priceless. I guess that makes one a tough guy to put someone on ignore and state it in CAPS. Could YOU be the problem and not nobody else? Naw, You just like to dance around these threads and spout what you always do. I'll stop now if possible because I don't want to be blamed for any stroke or heart attack that you might have. You do flip out with any dissent.
BTW, you're the one that has taken this thread on your direction, as you always do.
Gotta love that IGNORE feature.
If stman thinks RR is really full of it, this may well be the pot-kettle-black watershed moment he's surely been looking for all his life. LOL!
I'll come back and read your gibberish later. Maybe when you're done editing, if it ever ends. Now I'm stupid eh? I would like to call you for what you are IMO, but I won't give you the satisfaction. You're so intelligent to call me stupid. Now ya gotta brag on putting people on ignore. What's the % of that with folks on the board. What would it have been in 1q972 September. Sure you have all the data. What a load.
Stman. Cool guy!
Some threads appear to have earned a new status previously not contemplated...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Now you want to come back at me. Can you verify all the numbers and % given by your hero. Didn't think so. Just you wanting to be a gang mentality.
If you want my bonafides, I was born a poor black child.
I'm tired of waiting for CC to show back up. So I'll expedite his IGNORE move to right now. It's not like he's going to come back with anything intelligible or factual after a couple days of spewing sticker luv. If others want to continue the discussion I'm fine with that. But anything else from CC is blank space to me. He owes me though for bumping his post cost from 9 to 29. Talk about grade inflation!!! Great Caesar's Ghost!
Can one person form a gang? Let's put it this way; I would sooner trust the numbers RR puts out there than anything "cool guy" might offer up.
Oh, I understand silly little reference.
Well done!
Blind trust gotta love it. BTW, if you think you can get me to flip out over your code name calling I'm not like you hero. So, like I thought, you can't verify what you stick up for. What a load you are too.
SpaceHayDuke:
There is a difference between noting that PCGS-CAC coins, ON AVERAGE, sell for more than NGC-CAC coins, and asserting that they almost always do so. The distinction between an average for a group and the characteristics of an individual is central to understanding markets for rare or scarce coins. There are some NGC-CAC coins that sell for more than corresponding PCGS-CAC coins.
BigJpst:
Sorry, I should have worded my response without a reference to possible suggestions by BigJpst. It is plausible that someone reading BigJpst's statement, which I cited earlier in this thread, might think that CAC only posts sight unseen bids on generics or relatively common classic U.S. coins. My point was that there are many CAC bids for better date coins, too. Moreover, even if there is not a posted bid, CAC will often offer competitive prices for better date coins and rarities that are stickered. JA has strongly indicated to me that he is willing to pay the same amounts for NGC-CAC as for PCGS-CAC. The fact that there are others who will pay more for PCGS graded coins than for NGC graded coins is beside the point.
Roadrunner:
As Roadrunner is referring to coins that are or can be "moved from one holder to the other" at the same grade level, wholesalers would recognize these as coins that are likely "to cross"! For coins that are worth more than $2500, would grading-wholesalers, many of whom participate in auctions, be willing to pay 80% to 95% of the PCGS value for the NGC certified coins in this category defined by Roadrunner, given Roadrunner's terminology and parameters. If a few collectors are willing to pay even more than the wholesalers, which is not unusual, would many of the NGC certified coins then realize just as much as they would if they were in PCGS holders or at least 90% as much?
As so many dealers make a large part of their respective 'living' by submitting coins to PCGS and NGC, and IF Roadrunner thinks that most auction results are reflective of market levels (which I am not saying), how can Roadrunner conclude that the same exact coin would 'typically' be worth 15-20% less, and sometimes 40% less, if it is NGC graded X rather than PCGS graded X, assuming that it would be PCGS graded X if submitted? In Roadrunner's interpretation of market realities, would these coins be spotted by at least some grading-wholesalers as coins that would cross into PCGS holders and would they then bid accordingly?
My opinion is that there are too many variables relating to individual coins for such conclusions to be drawn There is also a need to regard coins as individuals, as most collectors do. Statistical averages are misleading in regard to rare or scarce coins.
Also, I am concerned that some members of this forum, thought perhaps not Roadrunner, have a tendency to refer to all auction prices as market prices. At a minimum, a distinction must be made between auction results that are wholesale prics and those that are retail prices.
What are Auction Prices?
A lot of blank spaces in this thread now. Hey Stman, don't forget to CORNFIELD me as well. I wouldn't want to offend your sensitive ears in the future.
Analyst smelled our blood in the water. But I just don't have the stamina to readdress everything over again. Maybe in the next one.
Yet, you still had to say something. hahahahaha
Not having skin in the game may skew ones views.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Thanks MJ. And I lost my share of skin over the years. Something I don't like to see newbies go through in this day and age. I never bothered to record every number associated with my 55 years in coins. But probably should have so I could be able to present it all here for thorough analysis and extreme vetting. Imagine the years that would have taken...lol. My best recollection and review of the records I do have is the best I can give. Mea Culpa. Those who don't buy into it can certainly present their own facts and experiences to counter.
Do note that those Analyst comments of "1.000 batting average analogy" from his earlier post along with something about "me and NGC going back from 1988-2002" is pure bunk. Asked, answered, and addressed in great detail in my earlier reply to those comments. I won't address them again....though I did just fine with NGC coins from 1988-2002. The real issue was selling NGC coins in the post-CAC world, no matter how nice or even if stickered. Thank you. Resume your normal programming.
RR your aim is true.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
OH goody, that means I'm in good company and doing something right, then. You're my Costanza, stman -- all I need do is the opposite of you and I can't help but succeed.
Too kind Mark.
Those that want to argue/discuss these issues in person I'll be at the March 26th Willimantic, CT coin show from 9-2 pm at the CNI table (barring a monster snow storm). Fair warning. I'll have a dealer next to me with 55 years of crusty skin in the game (100 yrs between us) that has been seriously active since the 1960's in every aspect of the coin market. And he does bullion, paper money, jewelry, guns, antiques, postcards, and other collectibles as well. No Website. Only 3 big shows per year (ANA, FUN, Balty). No major auctions....at least not since 2003. The finest dealer I know or have ever known. Analyst, CC, Stman, all welcome to show up to dispute whatever "tall tales" we claim.
Although I appreciate Mark's attention to my posts, I hope that he reads them. In the post that he graciously cited, I said, For starters, I do a considerable amount of consulting work regarding rarities. I am not just reporting and talking. I am involved in many ways.
Mark may have ignored two pertinent sentences in an earlier post of mine to this thread: Also, from 1987 onward, crackout artists, including coin doctors, were seeking to get coins overgraded, mistakenly graded or 'maxed out' at PCGS or NGC. During the 1990s, I was glad that I was a reporter and researcher regarding such activities rather than a participant. In some ways, such games are very harmful to the coin community and may be unethical.
I am sure what "game" Mark is saying lacks my "skin"! I will not doctor coins or attempt to upgrade doctored coins. I will not play a game to "max out" never doctored coins either. During a period of 25 years, I have been involved in a small number of submissions to PCGS or NGC. I have no interest in being a wholesaler. My readers, clients and friends appreciate the roles that I do play.
How will Coin Collectors Interpret Certified Coin Grades in the Future?
This thread is telling me there is a future in buying NGC CAC at a discount and moving them up the food chain cracking them out and sending to CA.
If you really can buy them at a discount someplace, where? Plz tell
>
You are beyond belief. Multiple collectors and dealers have now confirmed that CAC bids are the same. Even TDN has told you you're wrong, and if I am not mistaken, Legend was once an equity partner in CAC. "Your logic" amounts to nothing more than a raw emotional argument on how you think the numismatic world should function. If you cannot understand that there is a difference between idealizations and the real world, perhaps it is you who doesn't understand logic. Instead of accepting multiple corroborations of the same FACT, you have called two major dealers liars and attacked others personally. Flame away; I'm done with this thread.
Greg I do read a lot of your articles. I enjoy them. You're a very talented writer and researcher. However when writing big checks that's when one puts the pedal to the metal and their money where there mouth is. Having skin the game provides a different mindset. It just does. I try to put as many things in my favor as possible and employ as many tools as necessary when buying and selling.
Mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Never mind
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The discussion that spiraled out of control wasn't about retail values or resale value... It was about CAC bid values. I think that was lost in the fluff. There is a big difference between Heritage auction value and CAC bid level. As for the PCGS v. NGC disparity, I don't think anyone disputed that in many cases there is an appreciable premium for the PCGS-CAC combination.
As for putting his money where his mouth is, you seem to unfairly single out Greg. There is no evidence of RR being active in the market either. All of his posts seem to fixate on the pre-2008 market with a smattering of posts about 2008-2009. We are not in the market of 2008-2009. I can only wish that we were in the pre-2008 market. I miss the good old days.
I've had the same experiences regarding this dealer and echo your thoughts . His stance on CAC has soften somewhat on his site at least.
Mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
In essence, he is making an offer on a raw coin from his perspective.
If it's a MS65 with a green CAC, then it's a MS65 coin regardless of the plastic that's surrounding it at the moment.
He is vetting the coin to your point.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Per EG: "..so in the year 2525, if man is still alive, we will grade a coin MS65.739265."
I WANT ONE. Don't care what, but I want it NOW. With a CAC v.101 sticker, great-(great)20-greatgrandson of Eagle Eye sticker, and anything else you got.
Having the coin in the holder is optional.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Well...this was all quite educational. I got back into coins in late 08, just after the market tanked (so I have no first hand knowledge) but it would seem to me that there must have been some implicit bias against NGC products during the last bull market. This then developed into a explicit bias after the market collapse and advent of fourth party grading (CAC).
Can't respond to posts I can't "see." > @Elmhurst said:
There was nothing implicit in the NGC bias from 1998-2008. It was real and mostly deserved. Those coins brought 5-15% less as a rule because generally the grading was less conservative vs. PCGS at least in choice/gem 18th, 19th, and early 20th century type coins. There's always exceptions at both ends though. I did bother me that I had to sell nice NGC coins for a 5-10% discount to PCGS. You always had the option of cracking them out and sending directly to PCGS....and risk a no grade or lower grade for something you missed. For me, I was happy to take the 90-95% in most cases if I didn't send them to auction.
As a single example (of many), look at the pops of MS65 capped bust halves during that 1998-2008 period. NGC made 4X as many MS65's as PCGS did....yet both saw a similar number of overall MS coins. That's just not possible if the standards are identical. You'd have to expect a price discount with 4X as many coins being slabbed....basic supply and demand. As I recall, the NGC MS65 discount was a lot more than 15% because because of that 4X diff.
So the game was to take every 64+ PCGS/NGC CBH and shoot for NGC MS65's....gaining anywhere from 25% to 75% in price. Same game for 63+, 65+ coins. Keep sending them in until they come back 64 and 66. This worked across the entire Type coin spectrum of MS/PF 63-67. That doesn't work very well now as most everyone has caught on, CAC is on patrol, NGC holder bias is much higher than pre-2009, and liquidity today for anything even a little bit off in quality is much lower than 1998-2008.
I don't always agree with Roadrunner, but I will certainly say that he has written many comments---ones that I have been reading for almost 10 years now---that are very much in accord with my experience (which goes back to the late 1960's as far as coins are concerned) and opinions about the numismatic market, grading, etc.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Describing the coin market is like the joke about three blind guys describing an elephant....
TDN,
True. I was thinking about the trunk, and have no direct experience with the elephant's unmentionable parts.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
CoinCommando:
This statement is ironic, given that CoinCommando has put forth several insulting or otherwise demeaning remarks in this thread, which are clearly in violation of Don Willis' rules. While there is no evidence yet presented that CoinCommando, an anonymous participant, knows how to grade coins or is a major player, he or she is putting down the members who wish to express their own respective views and have an educational discussion.
CoinCommando:
CoinCommando:
CoinCommando:
CoinCommando:
Clearly, these are nasty remarks by CoinCommando. People who do not have an understanding of issues often take to insulting people who have different views. Although I do not agree with all of Roadrunner's views, he does make some excellent points and he clearly has an understanding of many aspects of the coin business. I wish to have intelligent and productive debates with knowledgeable numismatists that are not interrupted by malicious people who are far more interested in insulting others than in contributing to discussions. Hopefully, CoinCommando will not start slandering people who disagree with his or her viewpoints. The use of the word 'peddle' in regard to my articles could possibly be regarded as slander.
For more than 25 years, I have been the leader in accurately and fairly reporting news regarding rare, classic U.S. coins. Please consider more than 370 articles on CoinWeek.com , more than fifty articles that were published on CoinLink and hundreds of articles in Numismatic News and other Krause publications.
The following article was the co-winner of the NLG award for the best article about coins to be published on a web site. It is extremely pertinent to this discussion:
How will Coin Collectors Interpret Certified Coin Grades in the Future?
Nice post Analyst. At least we can continue to debate on a fairly equal footing.
CoinCommando is just upset cause he was about to list a bunch of ngc slabbers on the BST...
My dislike for NGC holders (as well) has made it easier to collect PCGS only