1921 Satin Proof Peace Dollars, still less than 12 known? Any PCGS yet?

northcoin

Came across this reporting from an old discussion from 2003 from coinguy1 regarding Satin Proof Peace Dollars referencing up to 12 known, although apparently at least up to that point in time PCGS was not grading them. Has that changed? If so I should probably submit mine that I have now had for over a decade and a half.

"Walter Breen describes the 1921 Satin Proofs as having "scattered die file marks" on the obverse "up and down, crossing each other in upper left fields and through and around upper parts of letters in LIBERTY, these mostly parallel to horizontal elements of letters; others in approximately concentric arcs of circles. Triangular pellet stop after (S)T in unusually high relief, even more than the other stops. Rev. Rays in high relief; similar die lines."

He also describes the 1922 low relief Satin proofs as having finishes similar to the 1921's, with built up rims and noticeably superior strike in many design areas.

The legitimate Satin proofs that I seen displayed a somewhat vibrant, semi-prooflike appearance, compared to business strikes, along with impressive strikes. .....

NGC has certified (12) Satin proof 1921's and (2) Satin proof 1922's. Again, some of those are probably resubmissions."

crazyhounddog

That sure would be a superb coin to stumble upon now wouldn't it
Great read, Thanks

WoodenJefferson

I'm almost certain RWB will chime in at one point.

RogerB

Pick up a copy of the Guide Book of Peace Dollars, 3rd edition. That should answer your questions. Also, see the post "Grade this '21 Peace dollar" and the photo with arrows pointing out highest points of the obverse.

SomeGuyFromMichigan

Quoting northcoin's **_"Walter Breen describes the 1921 Satin Proofs as having "scattered die file marks" ** Not file marks, but fine die polish.
When reviewing the SP Low relief coin struck on a metal press you can see the fine polish marks on the face and neck, around the date and thru out the field as on the 1921's.
So here is the large version of that photo.

1922 $1 Modified High Relief Production Trial J-2020 PR-67
Then go to the large format to view the close up details.

http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/CoinImages.aspx?s=97384

Barndog

Are they addressed in the "Renaissance" books? I've read one and have two more to go!

oih82w8

No, but I have seen a few "polished" dollars that the seller was awful proud of.

ManifestDestiny

@Barndog said:
Are they addressed in the "Renaissance" books? I've read one and have two more to go!

What are the Renaissance books?

Barndog

@ManifestDestiny said:

@Barndog said:
Are they addressed in the "Renaissance" books? I've read one and have two more to go!

What are the Renaissance books?

ebay.com/itm/131972846541?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

ManifestDestiny

What are your thoughts on these books? I am thinking about ordering them.

Wabbit2313

Coinfacts has the following on these:

http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/87382

http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/7382

Barndog

@ManifestDestiny said:
What are your thoughts on these books? I am thinking about ordering them.

i really enjoyed the first one and the story of the interaction between Pres Roosevelt and A S Gaudens. Formed a new opinion of Barber too. Enjoying second book now (about sixty pages in)

Definitely recommend!

northcoin

@Wabbit2313 said:
Coinfacts has the following on these:

http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/87382

http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/7382

Thanks. That confirms that PCGS has in fact now recognized the matte proof 1921 Peace Dollar. Have they graded any of the satin proofs or are they still an NGC exclusive?

northcoin

@RogerB said:
Pick up a copy of the Guide Book of Peace Dollars, 3rd edition. That should answer your questions. Also, see the post "Grade this '21 Peace dollar" and the photo with arrows pointing out highest points of the obverse.

Thanks. I will try to locate a copy. Does it reference any PCGS graded 1921 Satin Proof Peace Dollars?

RogerB

I don't believe PCGS handles 1921 Satin proof dollars. NGC does both.

northcoin

@RogerB said:
I don't believe PCGS handles 1921 Satin proof dollars. NGC does both.

Thanks.

ricko

I keep hoping one will turn up at a local antique shop... one has a display case with Morgans and a few Peace dollars... all overpriced... however, one of these could 'slip' in ....Cheers, RickO

RogerB

Look for characteristics similar to the one in the other thread. No luster, metallic sheen, very strong, even detail, etc.

sjl442

I owned a 1921 Satin Finish Peace Dollar. Bought it from Brian Hendelson in 1984 and paid $25,000. There was no question as to this coin being a proof. This was all before slabbing. If you ever get a chance to examine a true proof, you will come to the same conclusion as I did, one of my favorite items I have ever owned in my career.

1northcoin

Any updates?

Still have the one referenced above that I acquired now over two decades ago.

I had completely forgot about it until I saw today ‘s re airing of the 2014 Pawn Stars show featuring the rare 1922 Matte Proof High Relief Peace Dollar on NBC.

FlyingAl

@1northcoin said:
Any updates?

Still have the one referenced above that I acquired now over two decades ago.

I had completely forgot about it until I saw today ‘s re airing of the 2014 Pawn Stars show featuring the rare 1922 Matte Proof High Relief Peace Dollar on NBC.

Updates on what? Why so many thread resurrections?

1northcoin

On whether PCGS has holdered more than the one 1921 Peace Dollar as a proof which apparently was identified in a subsequent thread that has been closed for unrelated reasons.

From the postings the coin had apparently been attributed by NGC as a 1921 Satin Proof Peace Dollar and then it got a CAC sticker. PCGS apparently then agreed to holder it as a 1921 Peace Dollar Proof, but instead of calling it a Satin Proof it was identified as a Matte Proof,

My question about updates would have been better phrased as to whether there have been additional 1921 Peace Dollars now in PCGS holders.

FlyingAl

@1northcoin said:
On whether PCGS has holdered more than the one 1921 Peace Dollar as a proof which apparently was identified in a subsequent thread that has been closed for unrelated reasons.

From the postings the coin had apparently been attributed by NGC as a 1921 Satin Proof Peace Dollar and then it got a CAC sticker. PCGS apparently then agreed to holder it as a 1921 Peace Dollar Proof, but instead of selling it a Satin Proof it was identified as a Matte Proof,

My question about updates would have been better phrased as to whether there have been additional 1921 Peace Dollars now in PCGS holders.

That coin has been reholdered as a Satin and can be bought for $450k.

That is the only non-pattern or Matte 1921 in a PCGS holder.

1northcoin

@FlyingAl said:

@1northcoin said:
On whether PCGS has holdered more than the one 1921 Peace Dollar as a proof which apparently was identified in a subsequent thread that has been closed for unrelated reasons.

From the postings the coin had apparently been attributed by NGC as a 1921 Satin Proof Peace Dollar and then it got a CAC sticker. PCGS apparently then agreed to holder it as a 1921 Peace Dollar Proof, but instead of selling it a Satin Proof it was identified as a Matte Proof,

My question about updates would have been better phrased as to whether there have been additional 1921 Peace Dollars now in PCGS holders.

That coin has been reholdered as a Satin and can be bought for $450k.

That is the only non-pattern or Matte 1921 in a PCGS holder.

Thanks!

CaptHenway

A few pictures here and following.

https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1921-1-peace-satin-finish/7382

WiscKau

This may help:

Ridley06

A Satin and Matte proof 1921 peace are up for auction at Stacks Bowers currently. Their descriptions are very useful in adding context to the coins.

PeakRarities

Apparently the lone proof 1921 Peace dollar at PCGS was holdered as a mistake. Originally designated as a matte proof, a new employee did not realize that PCGS did not recognize them, by the time it was caught, it was too late. They recalled it to change the designation from Matte to Satin, but from what I am told that is the only one we will ever see in PCGS plastic.

FlyingAl

@Ridley06 said:
A Satin and Matte proof 1921 peace are up for auction at Stacks Bowers currently. Their descriptions are very useful in adding context to the coins.

The Jack Lee 1921 Satin is.... interesting.

4Redisin

@FlyingAl said:

@1northcoin said:
Any updates?

Still have the one referenced above that I acquired now over two decades ago.

I had completely forgot about it until I saw today ‘s re airing of the 2014 Pawn Stars show featuring the rare 1922 Matte Proof High Relief Peace Dollar on NBC.

Updates on what? Why so many thread resurrections?

Could it be because some of us newcomers never saw the many of these interesting threads when they were first posted and would never think to search for something in the archives that we'll never see.

FlyingAl

@4Redisin said:

@FlyingAl said:

@1northcoin said:
Any updates?

Still have the one referenced above that I acquired now over two decades ago.

I had completely forgot about it until I saw today ‘s re airing of the 2014 Pawn Stars show featuring the rare 1922 Matte Proof High Relief Peace Dollar on NBC.

Updates on what? Why so many thread resurrections?

Could it be because some of us newcomers never saw the many of these interesting threads when they were first posted and would never think to search for something in the archives that we'll never see.

Oh, this is barely the surface of the archives. Generally you don't resurrect old threads because a lot of the original posters are gone and the context is mostly lost.

4Redisin

I do see a lot of banned members but surely most of the info is correct or got corrected.

7Jaguars

@FlyingAl said:

@4Redisin said:

@FlyingAl said:

@1northcoin said:
Any updates?

Still have the one referenced above that I acquired now over two decades ago.

I had completely forgot about it until I saw today ‘s re airing of the 2014 Pawn Stars show featuring the rare 1922 Matte Proof High Relief Peace Dollar on NBC.

Updates on what? Why so many thread resurrections?

Could it be because some of us newcomers never saw the many of these interesting threads when they were first posted and would never think to search for something in the archives that we'll never see.

Oh, this is barely the surface of the archives. Generally you don't resurrect old threads because a lot of the original posters are gone and the context is mostly lost.

Which in itself does NOT necessarily detract from the content therein. A bit snarky of a response.

4Redisin

@7Jaguars said:

@FlyingAl said:

@4Redisin said:

@FlyingAl said:

@1northcoin said:
Any updates?

Still have the one referenced above that I acquired now over two decades ago.

I had completely forgot about it until I saw today ‘s re airing of the 2014 Pawn Stars show featuring the rare 1922 Matte Proof High Relief Peace Dollar on NBC.

Updates on what? Why so many thread resurrections?

Could it be because some of us newcomers never saw the many of these interesting threads when they were first posted and would never think to search for something in the archives that we'll never see.

Oh, this is barely the surface of the archives. Generally you don't resurrect old threads because a lot of the original posters are gone and the context is mostly lost.

Which in itself does NOT necessarily detract from the content therein. A bit snarky of a response.

I did not take it that way. What I don't understand is what he means by "context". I want the interesting info not the back-and-forth banter or the context in which it appeared. I started a new discussion which appears to be "lame".

FlyingAl

@4Redisin said:

@7Jaguars said:

@FlyingAl said:

@4Redisin said:

@FlyingAl said:

@1northcoin said:
Any updates?

Still have the one referenced above that I acquired now over two decades ago.

I had completely forgot about it until I saw today ‘s re airing of the 2014 Pawn Stars show featuring the rare 1922 Matte Proof High Relief Peace Dollar on NBC.

Updates on what? Why so many thread resurrections?

Could it be because some of us newcomers never saw the many of these interesting threads when they were first posted and would never think to search for something in the archives that we'll never see.

Oh, this is barely the surface of the archives. Generally you don't resurrect old threads because a lot of the original posters are gone and the context is mostly lost.

Which in itself does NOT necessarily detract from the content therein. A bit snarky of a response.

I did not take it that way. What I don't understand is what he means by "context". I want the interesting info not the back-and-forth banter or the context in which it appeared. I started a new discussion which appears to be "lame".

Nor did I intend for it to be that way.

Generally, something can spark a thread that influences it, such as the 2003 thread referenced here. In this case, the thread and discussion were years removed, and the OP decided to start a new thread with the info included so all were aware of what was going on. In that sense, a new thread can better encapsulate the "context" of what was going on.

The reason why I asked why the thread was resurrected was because several threads of the same topic from years ago were brought back yesterday so there was a lot of missing context, and one reply in one thread was then lost in the next.

Mr Lindy

I like necromancer threads.

I learn from necromancer threads.

I rarely post here, but I am always learning.

Posters at PCGS Foums in the past got tossed/banned for various unnamed offences but their numismatic insights can be information & treasure nuggets. Its all archived here, their contributions live on. They are misfit toys in the land of current reality.

Typically people here will respond to do a search, but now people complain if people want to know more after doing a search to add to a historical thread ? All of which are livingthreads to continue to contribute to/in.

Personally I had no idea Northcoin1 maybe has a half million dollar coin he spaced out owning !

That is just so cool !!!

i would like to fantasize that I own a few half million dollar goodies I spaced out...

Be kind to the necromancers.

MFeld

@Mr Lindy said:
I like necromancer threads.

I learn from necromancer threads.

Posters at PCGS Foums in the past got tossed/banned for various unnamed offences but their numismatic insights can be information & treasure nuggets. Its all archived here, their contributions live on. They are misfit toys in the land of current reality.

Typically people here respond to do a search, but now we complain if people want to know more after doing a search to add to a historical thread ? All of which are living to contribute to/in.

Personally I had no idea Northcoin1 maybe has a half million dollar coin he spaced out owning !

That is just so cool !!!

i would like to fantasize that I own a few half million dollar goodies I spaced out...

Be kind to the necromancers.

That’s quite a stretch to consider the possibility that an ungraded 1921 Peace dollar might be worth $500,000. While I’d love to see it, chances are that its value is a small, if not tiny fraction of that amount. Consider that it’s been held by the same owner for more than 20 years - more than enough time to have submitted it to major grading companies more than a few times.😉

1northcoin

@PeakRarities said:
Apparently the lone proof 1921 Peace dollar at PCGS was holdered as a mistake. Originally designated as a matte proof, a new employee did not realize that PCGS did not recognize them, by the time it was caught, it was too late. They recalled it to change the designation from Matte to Satin, but from what I am told that is the only one we will ever see in PCGS plastic.

Thanks for the heads up. If your sources indicate a change of heart let me know as that would likely incentivize a submission.

It has now been 20 plus years that I have held onto the 1921 Peace Dollar that was sold to me as a proof.

Since then I have done nothing more than post inquiries on this board and more recently forgetting I even had it until the re aired Pawn Stars feature on the 1922 Peace Dollar Proof aired a few days ago on NBC.

FlyingAl

@1northcoin said:

@PeakRarities said:
Apparently the lone proof 1921 Peace dollar at PCGS was holdered as a mistake. Originally designated as a matte proof, a new employee did not realize that PCGS did not recognize them, by the time it was caught, it was too late. They recalled it to change the designation from Matte to Satin, but from what I am told that is the only one we will ever see in PCGS plastic.

Thanks for the heads up. If your sources indicate a change of heart let me know as that would likely incentivize a submission.

It has now been 20 plus years that I have held onto the 1921 Peace Dollar that was sold to me as a proof.

Since then I have done nothing more than post inquiries on this board and more recently forgetting I even had it until the re aired Pawn Stars feature on the 1922 Peace Dollar Proof aired a few days ago on NBC.

NGC still grades Satin Proofs.

MFeld

@1northcoin said:

@PeakRarities said:
Apparently the lone proof 1921 Peace dollar at PCGS was holdered as a mistake. Originally designated as a matte proof, a new employee did not realize that PCGS did not recognize them, by the time it was caught, it was too late. They recalled it to change the designation from Matte to Satin, but from what I am told that is the only one we will ever see in PCGS plastic.

Thanks for the heads up. If your sources indicate a change of heart let me know as that would likely incentivize a submission.

It has now been 20 plus years that I have held onto the 1921 Peace Dollar that was sold to me as a proof.

Since then I have done nothing more than post inquiries on this board and more recently forgetting I even had it until the re aired Pawn Stars feature on the 1922 Peace Dollar Proof aired a few days ago on NBC.

The fact that you haven’t submitted it after all this time makes me think you have serious doubts regarding its Proof status and prefer to hold on to the dream that it could be a Proof.

1northcoin

@MFeld said:

@1northcoin said:

@PeakRarities said:
Apparently the lone proof 1921 Peace dollar at PCGS was holdered as a mistake. Originally designated as a matte proof, a new employee did not realize that PCGS did not recognize them, by the time it was caught, it was too late. They recalled it to change the designation from Matte to Satin, but from what I am told that is the only one we will ever see in PCGS plastic.

Thanks for the heads up. If your sources indicate a change of heart let me know as that would likely incentivize a submission.

It has now been 20 plus years that I have held onto the 1921 Peace Dollar that was sold to me as a proof.

Since then I have done nothing more than post inquiries on this board and more recently forgetting I even had it until the re aired Pawn Stars feature on the 1922 Peace Dollar Proof aired a few days ago on NBC.

The fact that you haven’t submitted it after all this time makes me think you have serious doubts regarding its Proof status and prefer to hold on to the dream that it could be a Proof.

The only third party grading service that I have personally ever submitted a coin to for grading is PCGS. Were I interested in selling it, which I am not at present, I would most likely let the auction house make the decision with regard to getting it holdered as that has been my practice in the past.

Boosibri

I don’t understand the point of this thread. If you are curious, suspicious or anything in between, submit the coin for grading. Many coins we called proof in the past which of course are not. If you really want a qualified opinion, send to PCGS or NGC.

Is there a picture of the coin to post to at least react to?

Floridafacelifter

I own one and have handled another- it can be tricky with the TPGs. When you’re ready to have it authenticated NGC is the way to go (and I don’t often say that). Would love to see pics of your coin!

CaptHenway

Gorgeous!

oldabeintx

I know diddly about these, but that’s a beautiful coin in my eyes. 65 seems low - it looks nearly perfect.

anablep

@Floridafacelifter If that’s a 65, then I’m Anthony de Francisci!

Floridafacelifter

@anablep said:
@Floridafacelifter If that’s a 65, then I’m Anthony de Francisci!

Haha thanks guys- that was the results of its first trip to a TPG, and I agree- if I were to entertain selling it I would try for an upgrade first!

Mr Lindy

STUNNING !!!!

Thanks for Sharing this Treasure !!!!

@Floridafacelifter said:
I own one and have handled another- it can be tricky with the TPGs. When you’re ready to have it authenticated NGC is the way to go (and I don’t often say that). Would love to see pics of your coin!

1northcoin

@Boosibri said:
I don’t understand the point of this thread. If you are curious, suspicious or anything in between, submit the coin for grading. Many coins we called proof in the past which of course are not. If you really want a qualified opinion, send to PCGS or NGC.

Is there a picture of the coin to post to at least react to?

Fair quetions but historically PCGS would not accept the 1921 as a proof and now we learn they consider the one they crossed from NGC with a CAC sticker to not only have been a mistake but they had to correct their own attribution from Matte Proof to Satin Proof. Apparently submitting to PCGS would be an exercise in futility.

PeakRarities

@1northcoin said:

@Boosibri said:
I don’t understand the point of this thread. If you are curious, suspicious or anything in between, submit the coin for grading. Many coins we called proof in the past which of course are not. If you really want a qualified opinion, send to PCGS or NGC.

Is there a picture of the coin to post to at least react to?

Fair quetions but historically PCGS would not accept the 1921 as a proof and now we learn they consider the one they crossed from NGC with a CAC sticker to not only have been a mistake but they had to correct their own attribution from Matte Proof to Satin Proof. Apparently submitting to PCGS would be an exercise in futility.

While that appears to be the case, posting pictures for us here would not be, considering that there’s two proof peace dollar owners participating in this thread. Both of which, went through the process with NGC to get them certified as such…🙃

MFeld

@anablep said:
@Floridafacelifter If that’s a 65, then I’m Anthony de Francisci!

Welcome to the forum, Anthony.
Perhaps the coin deserved a higher grade but maybe it didn’t. Stick around the forum for a while and you’ll hopefully learn that images, alone, don’t always tell the whole story.