Crossover question for those that do a lot of it...

Coin Finder

Do you folks who frequently cross choose same grade more often or any grade more often?

illini420

I almost always choose same grade or better. Rarely do I cross at any grade.

In most cases an NGC coin graded X+1 is still worth more than a PCGS coin graded X. I know some folks are willing to accept a downgrade to get NGC coins into their PCGS registry sets, and I've done it too, but it's not always the best move financially.

illini420

When looking at ICG coins and sometimes ANACS though, I will do cross at any grade on those as getting the coins into PCGS holders is more of a priority. Often an ICG coin graded X+1 is not as marketable and not worth more than a PCGS coin graded X.

rooksmith

Are ICG coins going to grade same or higher? What if they go lower?

roadrunner

@illini420 said:
I almost always choose same grade or better. Rarely do I cross at any grade.

In most cases an NGC coin graded X+1 is still worth more than a PCGS coin graded X. I know some folks are willing to accept a downgrade to get NGC coins into their PCGS registry sets, and I've done it too, but it's not always the best move financially.

That's true. But if you consider a non-generic NGC coin graded X+1 no sticker, and a PCGS X+ (plus coin) CAC, those will often sell for more money. I got the surprise of a lifetime at a auction when my pop 1, finest graded NGC MS67 CAC seated half fetched PCGS MS66 money. And it was about 30% less than a PCGS 67 (no sticker) coin would have fetched. NGC bias is very strong at the upper grade levels for 19th century low pop silver coins.....at least per my experiences. For many of these it makes more sense to cross at "any grade" or resubmit raw as long as the coin has no potential for AT/ED/altered surfaces.

illini420

@roadrunner said:

@illini420 said:
I almost always choose same grade or better. Rarely do I cross at any grade.

In most cases an NGC coin graded X+1 is still worth more than a PCGS coin graded X. I know some folks are willing to accept a downgrade to get NGC coins into their PCGS registry sets, and I've done it too, but it's not always the best move financially.

That's true. But if you consider a non-generic NGC coin graded X+1 no sticker, and a PCGS X+ (plus coin) CAC, those will often sell for more money. I got the surprise of a lifetime at a auction when my pop 1, finest graded NGC MS67 CAC seated half fetched PCGS MS66 money. And it was about 30% less than a PCGS 67 (no sticker) coin would have fetched. NGC bias is very strong at the upper grade levels for 19th century low pop silver coins.....at least per my experiences. For many of these it makes more sense to cross at "any grade" or resubmit raw as long as the coin has no potential for AT/ED/altered surfaces.

I agree with that, especially when you're talking about the very top of the PCGS pops. I've seen similar results in some of the higher end red and red-brown copper. The folks buying at that high end of the grade and price scales clearly prefer PCGS, much more so than with some other types.

Coin Finder

Is same grade or better the same as "cross at any grade"?

illini420

@thebigeng said:
Is same grade or better the same as "cross at any grade"?

No, when I said that, I really meant SAME grade as the minimum. But when you send in that way, the coins will occasionally cross higher, that's all.

On the PCGS forms you either write, SAME, ANY or some number as your minimum for crossing.

Wabbit2313

One of our wise members here many times crosses at any grade and then send it back for regrade if it went down and he believed it should not have. Of course, he know not to send clunkers in NGC holders to PCGS knowing they are going to be roasted no matter what.

slider23

I sent PCGS a total of 14 NGC, 2 ANACS coins to cross at grade. 11 of 16 crossed at grade. If the coin is solid or high end for grade, it should cross. One of my failed coins had a CAC sticker. If the coin is below solid for grade, do not waste your money trying to cross the coin at grade.

TomB

I generally use cross at any grade. The reason for this is because the plastic of the NGC holder can be scuffed and make it difficult to see a coin clearly. In those instances, it is my opinion that PCGS will err on the side of caution and be less likely to cross at grade. However, if the coin is cross at any grade then PCGS will crack the coin out and notice how nice it is. Therefore, they will likely cross it at grade even when asking for cross at any grade.

By the way, I don't recall ever having an NGC or ICCS holder coin not cross at least at its assigned grade using this method, but I have had an ANACS coin fail this method.

CascadeChris

@TomB said:
I generally use cross at any grade. The reason for this is because the plastic of the NGC holder can be scuffed and make it difficult to see a coin clearly. In those instances, it is my opinion that PCGS will err on the side of caution and be less likely to cross at grade. However, if the coin is cross at any grade then PCGS will crack the coin out and notice how nice it is. Therefore, they will likely cross it at grade even when asking for cross at any grade.

By the way, I don't recall ever having an NGC or ICCS holder coin not cross at least at its assigned grade using this method, but I have had an ANACS coin fail this method.

I hate NGC slabs for that very reason. They scratch so easily and the high gloss plastic they use really enhances scratches and scuffs plus it's so hard to buff out NGC slabs.

Wabbit2313

@TomB said:
I generally use cross at any grade. The reason for this is because the plastic of the NGC holder can be scuffed and make it difficult to see a coin clearly. In those instances, it is my opinion that PCGS will err on the side of caution and be less likely to cross at grade. However, if the coin is cross at any grade then PCGS will crack the coin out and notice how nice it is. Therefore, they will likely cross it at grade even when asking for cross at any grade.

By the way, I don't recall ever having an NGC or ICCS holder coin not cross at least at its assigned grade using this method, but I have had an ANACS coin fail this method.

This is a common misconception. The coin is still graded inside the plastic.

TomB

@Wabbit2313 said:

@TomB said:
I generally use cross at any grade. The reason for this is because the plastic of the NGC holder can be scuffed and make it difficult to see a coin clearly. In those instances, it is my opinion that PCGS will err on the side of caution and be less likely to cross at grade. However, if the coin is cross at any grade then PCGS will crack the coin out and notice how nice it is. Therefore, they will likely cross it at grade even when asking for cross at any grade.

By the way, I don't recall ever having an NGC or ICCS holder coin not cross at least at its assigned grade using this method, but I have had an ANACS coin fail this method.

This is a common misconception. The coin is still graded inside the plastic.

The initial grading is done through the plastic, which is why I cross at any grade, but once it gets cracked out they can see it better and the grade may change.

Wabbit2313

@TomB said:

@Wabbit2313 said:

@TomB said:
I generally use cross at any grade. The reason for this is because the plastic of the NGC holder can be scuffed and make it difficult to see a coin clearly. In those instances, it is my opinion that PCGS will err on the side of caution and be less likely to cross at grade. However, if the coin is cross at any grade then PCGS will crack the coin out and notice how nice it is. Therefore, they will likely cross it at grade even when asking for cross at any grade.

By the way, I don't recall ever having an NGC or ICCS holder coin not cross at least at its assigned grade using this method, but I have had an ANACS coin fail this method.

This is a common misconception. The coin is still graded inside the plastic.

The initial grading is done through the plastic, which is why I cross at any grade, but once it gets cracked out they can see it better and the grade may change.

Unless something has changed very recently, this is incorrect. It does not go back into the grading room after. It is graded through the plastic and then taken out and slabbed, NOT by the graders. Of course a finalizer can change a grade once it is slabbed, but it has nothing to do with crossovers or raw. I am also told that rarely happens either. They do not have time to be grading the same coin twice. This came from the horses mouth.

If you are confidant in a coin, you are always better off cracking it so that the graders will indeed look at the coin outside of plastic.

ShadyDave

@TomB said:
I generally use cross at any grade. The reason for this is because the plastic of the NGC holder can be scuffed and make it difficult to see a coin clearly. In those instances, it is my opinion that PCGS will err on the side of caution and be less likely to cross at grade. However, if the coin is cross at any grade then PCGS will crack the coin out and notice how nice it is. Therefore, they will likely cross it at grade even when asking for cross at any grade.

By the way, I don't recall ever having an NGC or ICCS holder coin not cross at least at its assigned grade using this method, but I have had an ANACS coin fail this method.

I'd rather crack the coin out and have a clean slate when I submit it. I've had much better luck that way.

oldgoldlover

@thebigeng said:
Do you folks who frequently cross choose same grade more often or any grade more often?

@thebigeng said:
Do you folks who frequently cross choose same grade more often or any grade more often?

Yes Getting a NGC coin upgraded by PCGS is very rare at best. I collect only type one New Orleans $20 and have started to put together a eighteenth century run of early dollars 1795 to 1799. If get buy a coin in a NGC holder the best I hope for is a same grade crossover. On other coins there are many collectors only this board that have forgotten more about other coins than I will ever know. I usually tell the seller it has to be in a PCGS holder same grade or no deal.

roadrunner

@slider23 said:
I sent PCGS a total of 14 NGC, 2 ANACS coins to cross at grade. 11 of 16 crossed at grade. If the coin is solid or high end for grade, it should cross. One of my failed coins had a CAC sticker. If the coin is below solid for grade, do not waste your money trying to cross the coin at grade.

I don't think you've ever done gem 19th century NGC type - bust, barber, seated. Solid for the grade or better. I've never had one cross out of dozens of attempts....in grades of 65, 66 and 67. Some of those coins today are in PCGS holders in a higher grade....most all of them stickered. Even if an NGC gem type coin is solid for the grade, don't waste your time trying to cross it. Crack it out or cross at any grade. Odds are way against a straight cross.

I recall my gem, no drapery common date half dime NGC MS67 that was graded in 1990. PCGS would never cross that coin on multiple attempts. It was auctioned in 2009 and brought 3X the price of a typical PCGS solid for the grade MS67. This was 2/3 of the way to MS68 money. The coin ended up with Gene Gardner...who got it upgraded to NGC MS68. It had great eye appeal, killer toning, and luster to die for. There are some coins PCGS just won't cross....even if they are "worthy." My personal cross rate for gem 19th century silver type is 0 for 36. Yet, I've consistently upgraded PCGS coins on regrade. It's a funny hobby. I agree with those who say crack it out or cross at any grade, otherwise you're wasting time and money.

oih82w8

I buy the coin and if it is in another holder, I will cross at any grade.

Coin Finder

Great thoughts everyone and thank you. I think with this latest NGC jab at PCGS and the special deal promoting crossovers by PCGS that PCGS just might "give" a 1/2 point to get better coins into PCGS holders and out of NGC holders.. I could be wrong though..

ranshdow

I'm having trouble imagining scenarios where crossing at any grade makes sense for an NGC CAC approved coin.

lkeigwin

@Wabbit2313 said:

@TomB said:

@Wabbit2313 said:

@TomB said:
I generally use cross at any grade. The reason for this is because the plastic of the NGC holder can be scuffed and make it difficult to see a coin clearly. In those instances, it is my opinion that PCGS will err on the side of caution and be less likely to cross at grade. However, if the coin is cross at any grade then PCGS will crack the coin out and notice how nice it is. Therefore, they will likely cross it at grade even when asking for cross at any grade.

By the way, I don't recall ever having an NGC or ICCS holder coin not cross at least at its assigned grade using this method, but I have had an ANACS coin fail this method.

This is a common misconception. The coin is still graded inside the plastic.

The initial grading is done through the plastic, which is why I cross at any grade, but once it gets cracked out they can see it better and the grade may change.

Unless something has changed very recently, this is incorrect. It does not go back into the grading room after. It is graded through the plastic and then taken out and slabbed, NOT by the graders. Of course a finalizer can change a grade once it is slabbed, but it has nothing to do with crossovers or raw. I am also told that rarely happens either. They do not have time to be grading the same coin twice. This came from the horses mouth.

If you are confidant in a coin, you are always better off cracking it so that the graders will indeed look at the coin outside of plastic.

I believe Wabbit has it right. From what I understand of the workflow, once the cross is allowed and grade decision made, it does not return to the grader after removal from the holder for another look and a possible bump.

It should!

I agree with TomB's practice of crossing at any grade. It may be conservative. Unfortunately, to get a fairer decision it is usually necessary to resubmit for a regrade (which is cracked and the coin viewed raw).
Lance.

ricko

I have no experience with this process....since I buy strictly for my collection. However, if I were to get involved with the grading/selling process, I would follow TomB's advice.... I have learned over these many years we have on the forum to respect his inputs, both on coins and the coin business. Cheers, RickO

slider23

@ranshdow said:
I'm having trouble imagining scenarios where crossing at any grade makes sense for an NGC CAC approved coin.

I had a NGC registry set with both PCGS & NGC coins that was 50% complete. I was not going to complete the NGC registry set with all NGC coins just on principle, and I want to finish the registry set. I crossed three nice NGC coins to PCGS with a CAC green sticker, so I could put them in my new PCGS registry set. The CAC coins will go back to CAC for the sticker. It did cost me money to make the crossover to the PCGS registry. The PCGS registry is not friendly for a new user, but after learning how to use the software, I like it a lot more.

roadrunner

@ranshdow said:
I'm having trouble imagining scenarios where crossing at any grade makes sense for an NGC CAC approved coin.

My pop 1 finest NGC MS67 CAC seated half fits that scenario. It failed on 5 cross attempts over 7 years at $100+ per pop. When auctioned it realized 30% less than what a PCGS 67 (no CAC) would have fetched....and no more than what a PCGS MS66+ CAC pop 1 finest would have fetched (there are no PCGS 67s). Hindsight suggests crossing at any grade or cracking it out would have led to equivalent or superior results....with essentially no downside risk. My bad for not realizing it at the time. Even HRH reviewed the coin for me at determined it was a 67 and should be resubmitted. Yeah, but how many times does it take?

The irony is that undoubtedly, that coin WILL end up in a PCGS MS67 CAC holder someday....and become pop 1 finest graded/finest known....and gain a huge premium as such. In my mind there's only potential downside leaving higher valued coins in NGC CAC holders....no real upside. 7 years ago I would not have thought that could be possible.

TomB

Well, it appears that I had some bad/outdated information and then shared it. I learned something in this thread, which is always a good thing.

BAJJERFAN

@TomB said:
I generally use cross at any grade. The reason for this is because the plastic of the NGC holder can be scuffed and make it difficult to see a coin clearly. In those instances, it is my opinion that PCGS will err on the side of caution and be less likely to cross at grade. However, if the coin is cross at any grade then PCGS will crack the coin out and notice how nice it is. Therefore, they will likely cross it at grade even when asking for cross at any grade.

By the way, I don't recall ever having an NGC or ICCS holder coin not cross at least at its assigned grade using this method, but I have had an ANACS coin fail this method.

Wouldn't it be wise to polish slabs that restrict/hinder visual analysis/evaluation?

ranshdow

@roadrunner said:

@ranshdow said:
I'm having trouble imagining scenarios where crossing at any grade makes sense for an NGC CAC approved coin.

My pop 1 finest NGC MS67 CAC seated half fits that scenario. It failed on 5 cross attempts over 7 years at $100+ per pop.

The irony is that undoubtedly, that coin WILL end up in a PCGS MS67 CAC holder someday....

I've crossed several NGC CAC coins at grade, and downcrossed one by one grade from AU55 to AU53, which I sorta regret now.

If you try and fail to downcross a NGC CAC coin, doesn't that say that the coin is in "max plastic" for the current era of grading standards? With few exceptions that I can think of (maybe proof gold being one), where is the cost/benefit of a cross-at-any-grade for a CAC approved coin?

cameonut2011

@lkeigwin said:

@Wabbit2313 said:

@TomB said:

@Wabbit2313 said:

@TomB said:
I generally use cross at any grade. The reason for this is because the plastic of the NGC holder can be scuffed and make it difficult to see a coin clearly. In those instances, it is my opinion that PCGS will err on the side of caution and be less likely to cross at grade. However, if the coin is cross at any grade then PCGS will crack the coin out and notice how nice it is. Therefore, they will likely cross it at grade even when asking for cross at any grade.

By the way, I don't recall ever having an NGC or ICCS holder coin not cross at least at its assigned grade using this method, but I have had an ANACS coin fail this method.

This is a common misconception. The coin is still graded inside the plastic.

The initial grading is done through the plastic, which is why I cross at any grade, but once it gets cracked out they can see it better and the grade may change.

Unless something has changed very recently, this is incorrect. It does not go back into the grading room after. It is graded through the plastic and then taken out and slabbed, NOT by the graders. Of course a finalizer can change a grade once it is slabbed, but it has nothing to do with crossovers or raw. I am also told that rarely happens either. They do not have time to be grading the same coin twice. This came from the horses mouth.

If you are confidant in a coin, you are always better off cracking it so that the graders will indeed look at the coin outside of plastic.

I believe Wabbit has it right. From what I understand of the workflow, once the cross is allowed and grade decision made, it does not return to the grader after removal from the holder for another look and a possible bump.

It should!

I agree with TomB's practice of crossing at any grade. It may be conservative. Unfortunately, to get a fairer decision it is usually necessary to resubmit for a regrade (which is cracked and the coin viewed raw).
Lance.

I don't understand why there is even a cross at any grade option. At that point, wouldn't the superior option be to crack the coin out yourself and save the 1% guarantee premium? It would seem that a raw crack out submission would always be preferable to a "cross at any grade" submission.

Wabbit2313

@cameonut2011 said:

I don't understand why there is even a cross at any grade option. At that point, wouldn't the superior option be to crack the coin out yourself and save the 1% guarantee premium? It would seem that a raw crack out submission would always be preferable to a "cross at any grade" submission.

I use it when I have a really nice toner that I would be worried about it never getting back into a slab if I cracked it. Otherwise, I can see no reason to not crack and send if you are going to chose that, and that is exactly what I do.

TomB

"Cross at any grade" guarantees that the coin will remain in someone's problem-free holder.

cameonut2011

@TomB said:
"Cross at any grade" guarantees that the coin will remain in someone's problem-free holder.

I wasn't aware of that. So "cross at any grade" means that it will only cross/be cracked if it straight grades?

lkeigwin

Correct.

And if you think the call was too conservative, send it in for a regrade so the coin will be examined raw. No downside (prior grade guaranteed) and no premium.

The key is "get it into PCGS plastic" and your options are limitless.
Lance.

amwldcoin

Why not just crack and send them in raw and save the crossover percentage fee? That's what I do...even with NGC!

@illini420 said:
When looking at ICG coins and sometimes ANACS though, I will do cross at any grade on those as getting the coins into PCGS holders is more of a priority. Often an ICG coin graded X+1 is not as marketable and not worth more than a PCGS coin graded X.