How much does a CAC sticker increase the value on coins based on your experience?
oldgoldlover
Posts: 429 ✭✭✭
Any replays welcome. Also what premium does a PCGS holder command over an NGC holder if two coins were offered sight unseen with the same date and grade?
Best Answers
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roadrunner
Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
Really, really common coins in the under $50 range....probably 0-5%.
Things like generic MS65 Morgan dollars.....10-15%
Generic choice and gem gold is typically 5-15%. But MS65's of tougher types like $10 Libs/Indians can be 30-40%.
Choice and gem 19th century silver type seems to fall into the 10-20% range most of the time.So as a general rule I'd say 5-40%. There will be exceptions though as the actual coin's quality determines the final premium. The most seen premiums are probably in the 10-15% range where the coins are not too hard to find.
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breakdown
Posts: 2,131 ✭✭✭✭✭
Roadrunner's answer is probably as close as you are likely to get. To be fair, CAC has often advertised that they do not add value to coins, but rather identify coins that are worth more because they are A or B coins for the grade and not C coins or coins that, in CAC's opinion, do not merit the assigned grade.
I think it is important to understand that for unstickered coins, there are two categories -- those that CAC chose not to sticker and those that CAC has never reviewed. For many unstickered coins, we do not know which category the coin falls into. For others, we have a pretty good idea. As an example, Mark Feld used to say that he had sent a coin to CAC and it had not stickered. I loved his honesty but I am sure it cost him a few dollars in the short term. Another example would be unstickered coins in Legend auctions.
But an unstickered coin that we know for a fact has never been to CAC, well it is harder to say how much value a sticker would add to such a coin."Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
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Justacommeman
Posts: 22,847 ✭✭✭✭✭
Gem gold seems to run 20-40% in my experience in putting together a 65 or better gold type set. I truly believe the premiums will get higher before they get lower.
The premiums seems to run in tandem to the better and tougher the coin is
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......8 -
ricko
Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
I recall the extensive discussions here on the forum when CAC was launched... and the intense - often caustic - commentary on whether the sticker would be 'value added' or not.... Well.. as always... the market decides and we now know the answer....
Cheers, RickO7
Answers
Likely the most general response to such a broad-based question would be to say that a coin with a CAC sticker may have more liquidity than the same coin without and a coin in a PCGS holder may have more liquidity than the same coin in an NGC holder.
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Just go shop around the completed auctions at HA and you will be filled with knowledge.
It sorta depends on the coin.........
Common coins, I agree, easier to sell, more liquid. Usually no magic unless you have super high end or special coins, like rare gold ones in old holder PCGS.
I agree with roadrunner too. PCGS vs NGC in my view is strictly about the coin inside. Selling on a place like E-Bay seems to afford no added value either way anymore.
For now, there is value added, especially in the coin auctions sector. If CAC sharply cuts back on purchases from non-CAC members, liquidity of coins with CAC beans will likely decrease. If CAC dissolves (as numismatic businesses inevitably do), the value of the CAC bean will be ????? The long-term value of CAC stickers depends very much on future decisions by the two major TPGs.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
As others have mentioned, CAC stickers might help with liquidity as there are some buyers who feel they only want coins that are stickered already.
But when it comes to value, I don't think CAC stickers increase the value of the coins at all. Sure, you see some really nice coins with CAC stickers that sell for really high prices, but really nice coins are going to sell for high prices w/o those stickers as well.
I have seen CAC stickers decrease values though when you're looking at early PCGS and NGC holders. Think of the NGC black holders, NGC all white holders, PCGS rattlers and PCGS doily holders... if you get a green CAC sticker on any of those it removes the hope of many prospective buyers that they could get easy upgrades of those coins. Having no sticker at all on those coins makes them sell for more in most cases than having a green CAC sticker as prospective buyers will think of the possibility of getting a gold CAC sticker and/or regrading/upgrading those coins.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
I've been watching a certain grade and "era" of circulated seated dollars. I've concluded that CAC stickers make a significant difference for this specific subset. Makes me want to sell a few of these to capitalize.
I saw in a Heritage auction two 1855 $20 O AU 55 NGC DEs go in the same auction. The non CAC coin went for a bit over $9,000 than the CAC coin. I use HA.com very often but there is do definitive way to tell. I know it makes a coin more liquid.
I agree with above statements, with very common every day stuff, not much value added.
But nicer higher grade better dates or higher end type, it makes a difference on the offers you receive. And in auction results as mentioned above I'm sure. I have a few 4 & 5 figure coins I am moving around a little , a few with stickers, and a few with out, all are actually quite nice for the grade. From some of the national dealers, on the coins with no stickers, I am getting the push back about the coin not having a sticker, and their buy offers being greatly reduced because of it(irregardless of the quality of the coin), and so forth. One or two of these coins, I actually sold the CAC coin and purchased another one that was clearly better not only to my eyes. but many others widely respected in the industry, some which post here. And the comments I am being told is: coins not cac, cant offer as strong) or a cac coin in that grade brought, x, so I am going to have to offer x minus a good bit on yours, etc.
If I don't like coin moot issue.
If I buy a cac coin my asking price part of cost plus markup equation.
I can see where someone might demand cac sticker on $5000 coin but (1) Cac coins very small pct of coins on eBay, (2) a sticker does not prevent coins reaction with atmospher or halt the chemical process of toning, and (3) many do not do big ticket coins for a sticker to be even revelant. Some of my recent slabbed pickups key coins under $200: 1934-S XF45 Dollar, 1913 G06 Half, some key date Barber Quarters VG-VF, some key date Mercury Dimes VF to AU. I retail these kinds of coins all the time both online and at shows / collectors want to fill holes.
Based on extensive spreadsheet analysis of dealer asking prices I would say 15 percent good ballpark number but his ca vary wildly across the board for individual coins.
In 2011 w the gold run up I sold off all my USGTC holdings and have replaced with modern US and World Gold (all slabbed) so CAC is not even an issue w these as I am mainly a bulk accumulator seeking material close to melt. The exception may be some Mexico 50P pieces I have in MS63 and above so scarce and tough to locate the sticker issue not part of that market (don't believe CAC stickers this material anyhow).
There is a difference between a coin that did not receive a CAC sticker and a coin that was not submitted to CAC. That 55-O without the CAC sticker was part of a large consignment that appeared to contain many older holdered coins that did not have CAC stickers. Bidders that looked at both coins liked the one without the CAC sticker vs the newer holdered CAC stickered one.
In general CAC stickered coins bring more money because it encourages more bidders to bid. Especially bidders that are bidding online based only on a photo. They are getting a respected third parties opinion that the coin is solid for the assigned grade.
Black NGC holders? What do those make up, 0.0002% of the coin market? Same for the doilies. And finding "fresh," PQ old NGC fatties and PCGS rattlers is another very tiny subset of the slabbed population. Now let's consider CAC's effect on the other 99% of the 30+ MILL potential slabbed population. Over 90% of those early holders where the coin's were really nice for the grade have been upgraded already. Even the current population of gold CAC's is probably less than 1% of all stickered coins. Gold CAC sticker-makers really don't factor into what the other 99% of the market is doing....and can ignore this thread.
For the typical collector running into rattlers at coin shows, those are more likely to be unfresh coins tried already, not that nice for that grade (lower eye appeal) or not worth the $10-$20 to send in. In the case of rattlers worth over $300-500 or more, I'd prefer having a green sticker on them to at least ensure I'm not overlooking a trap coin.
On coins I have sold, which were typically bust/seated silver pieces averaging $200 to $400, approximately 10% to 15%. This is an estimate of course. The $15 average S&H+fees to have my coins "CAC'd" has been well worthwhile for education, value & enjoyment.
On a gold coin like a $20 Saint I may pay a slight premium if it's CAC and meets my standards as an A coin but not on the BV portion so it's important to me to break out numismatic value vs BV. B coins my offer no premium for CAC - pay a premium for coin average for grade? Your kidding right? C coins no offer period.
I was offered one rather dark toned coin at a show, CAC coin. The rim area on the reverse really black - I wondered if it simply had gotten worse in the holder after getting a sticker (around a $2500 MV coin if up to par). I told the guy no interest and it needed a conservation / restoration service. It was a real dog.
If you lay out a bunch of Rattlers or the other holders mentioned, half with CAC and half without, you really believe that the without are going to sell for more and sell first? Not a chance!
Since CAC typically stickers A and B coins, it stands to reason that A and B coins would sell for more money, and they have historically. I don't think CAC adds value, it puts a spotlight on A and B coins (generally speaking...
In that scenario, I think you are correct that those with the stickers probably will sell for more... all else being equal. In that case, most buyers looking at that group would assume that all were submitted to CAC for review and those w/o stickers had failed the review.
You can see this sometimes when major collections are auctioned. If most of the collection has CAC stickers, the bidders know those without were also likely submitted and failed CAC review. That's why you sometimes see major collections going to auction w/o any CAC stickers as they don't want those without stickers being singled out.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
I just had the same experience on a 1795 VF 30 PCGS graded Flowing Hair Dollar. I needed a loop just to make out the date even though the coin was a PCGS 30. It was very dark and would have been a coin I wanted to upgrade at some point. Buying it makes no sense. Not CAC but it was hard on the eye and I buy the coin and the holder is just that a holder for the coin. If the coin had a CAC sticker my decision would have been the same.
I wonder why the seller did not send the better more accurately graded coin in for a sticker. It seems when a person is selling coins like this they would try to maximize what they get. I would have paid more for the non CAC coin as it was a superior coin. Frankly I could not figure out how the other coin get a green sticker. I collect type one New Orleans DEs and stick with AU. My procurement is slow for two reasons money and finding a nice coin priced right. I see very few CAC stickers on the tougher dates. I am just starting a 18th early dollar collection and do see more CAC stickers but don't mind buying a coin without one if is a nice piece. Based on what I read the early dollars PCGS CAC should bring 10 to 15% more as a rule of thumb. When I get Bowers book on these coins I will be more aggressively pursuing them. I did get a 1798 pcgs 40 that is a nice coin and CAC approved. I will post it soon. Cost was $4,500, which I thought was very fair.
Thanks to ALL for your time and help.
I think having JA ferreting out monkied with gold is actually worth its weight it gold.
Mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Is any pre 1900 us gold with a cac green bean in EF 40 or higher difficult to find?
You can find the CAC Green pop reports here
That may give an indication of what is 'out there'
http://www.caccoin.com/pop-report/
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Bad transactions with : nobody to date
You first need a buyer that will pay the extra money. Initially thought wb tough but some pleasant surprises.
Pricing CAC coins a subjective issue. Some have gone what 2-3 times the non cac?
Beyond that I refer to my cdn app which has CAC bids / cpg on many issues. However cost plus trumps all.
I had an 1880-S Ms 64 dollar I priced at $120 I paid GC $85 for awhile back. It was a very beautiful coin. Show customers backed off but an online buyer purchased it. I simply just marked it up cost plus. I don’t think there is much of a premium in ms64 in the sheet but don’t care the coin had more eye appeal than a lot 65’s.
Let’s say you have a CAC 66 Franklin. The sheet does not have bids for these but does for 81-s dollars - just use that (for grade 66) or cost plus.
I have and saw where two $20 1855 O coins were being sold one right after another. Both were NGC 55s. One was CAC and sold for a bit over $9,000 less than the other coin.
OLD THREAD ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It’s a moot issue if I don’t like the coin. If coin not A or B per my standards, a no go. If I like the coin then then would use the CAC bid in cdn as reference. Generally my bid 90 pct cdn less allowance for juice. Or just input bluesheet as max bid keep it simple.
For material where numismatic value 300 or less a moot issue unless of course CAC bid on cdn.
If in doubt add 15 pct to markup equation in pricing for sell.
I rescently won a CAC coin for $82 where it’s CAC bid is 100 and CAC sell is 130. I priced it at $135 for online store. It is very lustrous and onice for issue I would say at least a B coin.
Don’t feel out of place offering walkup customers at show da blue as they wb doing good get this after online coasts at auction.
Liberty $2.50's issues with CAC populations of 6 or less include 1840-D, 1846-C, 1852-D, 1856-C, 1857-D, 1860 Old Reverse, 1860-C, 1866, 1867 and 1870. So far I have found 4 of those 10 in CAC. The other 6 are proving difficult to find. None of the noted issues are the real rarities in that series.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
I have often bid a 1/2 grade down on Seated coins in MS65 or better without a sticker so basically I would bid 66+ money on a non CAC 67 dime. The difference could be 25-40% but on coins where I question if they are cleaned or original I won’t bid at all without a CAC.
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
Buying great coins - monster eye appeal only.
It's the stuff like this ("trap coin") that keep my opinion as it has been.
Not good for the hobby regardless if it pleases "the market."
Time will tell.
Sales wise touch and go. Online customers more likely CAC buyers than show people.
During summer slow season not much nothin selling so this question probably moot issue.
On buying side procured some CAC coins below their bid though.
There's an overgraded rattler Walker with a bean and the person wants slab money and bean money. Their asking price for this overgraded coin is twice as much as PCGS price guide. Pass.
Seen by 2 graders, a finalizer, a disconnected 3rd party and it's still overgraded? Effen amazing.
Updated thinking?
Been five years..:
An interesting test would be to take a CAC stickered coin and auction it with a ridiculous reserve and see how high it went. Then six months later, peel the sticker off and do the same thing.
No, as there’s still no one-size-fits-all answer. It depends on the coin type, date and grade.
For some coins, the increase in value is quite minimal, while in others, it can be huge.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If the reserve is “ridiculous”, there’s a good chance that the coin won’t sell. And in that case, there’s no chance to learn what you’re hoping to.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I've recently been looking at $20 Saints and I can state unequivocally that the CAC stickered coins bring more competition to the auction. I've been the #2 bidder a couple of times over the last week on several really nice (and stickered) coins... but is that because the coins were really nice for the grade or just because they were stickered.
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As usual, I agree with @MFeld, there are a lot of variables. But for one data point...
This coin sold at GC 8/13/23 for $1519
The exact same coin then sold in a NGC/CAC (and meme VB
) holder at GC 3/3/24 for $2053
Chopmarked Trade Dollar Registry Set --- US & World Gold Showcase --- World Chopmark Showcase
Buying - 20%
Selling - 0
Same ole, same ole, song and dance (as Aerosmith croons)!
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Doggone . . . . .
I stopped by the thread hoping to really pick up some perspectives. Looks like I may need to come by again some other time . . . .
Drunner
I bought a coin that sold for 700% more at auction after I got it beaned. No, I won’t share more details—I’m trying to buy more
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
The cacs doesn't really increase value however it does cost the owner a bit more once they realize it's time to remove the nasty (aka bean) off the slab. Goo Gone ain't cheap. RGDS!
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
Your distaste for CAC causes you to spout bologna, which isn’t a good look for you.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I suspect some believe my prior reply to this thread to be blunt and even rude. So I am taking this opportunity to raise what might be reasonable questions and issues worthy of consideration as to premiums and valuations.
One must understand and appreciate that coins within a series are simply not created equal as there is often a range in quality between dates and mints. And this can lead to what can easily be a significant challenge to grade coins and grade them accurately. Further it is important to understand the grading spectrum and even the spectrum within a single grade. Not all MS65 coins are alike.
So the important questions are what makes this an "A" coin or even something special within a specific grade?
-Quality of the strike and how does that compare to other surviving coins at this grade level?
-What do the high points and surfaces tell you?
-Was the coin enhanced to bring out luster at the expense of compromising original surfaces?
-What does the surviving population look like for this coin? And perhaps even more importantly what is the surviving population for a coin with this look and how often is it available?
Premiums are generated at the time of sale based on who is or how a coin is being sold. The sale... whether it be at auction ... captures the value at that moment by the buyer/seller or auction participants.
So the question about the premium is really is badly misplaced. Instead the important questions are about the coin and understanding what makes it special and where the coin stands in contrast to others at the same grade level. Any premium will likely be created by the perception of the coin in contrast to others. There are some coins that simply have an abundant supply in various grades. And just because a coin has a sticker, it may simply not resonate that well among the surviving population to justify the premium a seller might be seeking. Think of enhanced "No Motto" Gold with a sticker whereby the surfaces were enhanced in contrast to one that has original surfaces with no sticker. The surviving population of the original coin will likely attract more interest and a greater premium.
Let's focus and ask the questions that go towards how and why a premium is created that extends beyond a sticker.
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