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Question for Longtime, Full Time Dealers
learningcoins
Posts: 73 ✭✭
Did ebay and the internet help or hurt your business? I am guessing as with all things, it is very easy for anyone to setup shop and compete in the selling arena. It also gives dealers another place to sell, as well as buy. All things considered, do you like the way things are now, or pre ebay and internet days?
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I am a long term dealer, but not in coins, and I do not have a B&M shop but work out of my home.
Internet is FANTASTIC. Instead of relying on a newspaper classified, swap meet, ad in a magazine, etc. now I can post multiple pictures and respond almost instantly. Paypal solves the check in the mail issue. It also opens up the international sales through Ebay Global Shipping (about 23% of my stuff now goes overseas). Also, people can post want ads in multiple forums and compare offerings.
However, it is absolute death to the B&M who's business model was inventory that sat for years with a HUGE mark up and sales based on perceived local scarcity. The proverbial 1909-S VDB was seldom more than 1 per dealer, and good luck finding more than a couple within 100 miles. Now, there are hundreds on ebay, 24x7 with grading and pictures.
The other vector is the seller of stuff. When you had to clear out Aunt Sue's house, it was garage sale or sell to Wanda May's Antiqueee Shoppeee where you sold the item for $9 and 2 days later it was for sale for $72. It may sit for 2 years, but still a great ROI when it sold. If that was the business model, they will not survive long.
The other things is the information available. Now, with a basic description, I can find pictures of the unknown item, and relative values. When I had to clean out my parents house, stuff that look even remotely valuable got a quick check on Google. Less than $20: Garage Sale, $20 to $200: Estate Sale $200 and up: Ebay.
7 years earlier, I had the job of clearing my sister and her husband's estate. Literally, milk still in the fridge, fruit in the fruit bowl, and clothes in the washing machine. Both were hoarders, no wills, no children, they had a retail business, inventory, piles and piles of stuff, collectible stuff, that it was just too much to deal with. I know I left a lot on the table, but I had no easy method to figure out what was sell, wholesale, and trash.
Certainly changed the coin business. Retail in the shop is much worse. Sales at shows are much slower also, but I am busy all day getting items listed and shipped as a result of my participation on Ebay. Buying is steady in the store, but rarely does anything really collectible come in. Mostly silver, proof sets, etc.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
The internet is slowly killing coin shows. When I can sit at a slow show...and list on ebay...and sell more of what I just listed on ebay than at the show....that says it all.
i'm not a dealer but i feel like great coins are few and far between . i feel like i could see a lot more quality coins at a show than online. it's a lot more work trying to find dealers pages and browse thru inventory than hitting every table at a show. i think many dealers don't post all their inventory online either so if you wanna find the good stuff you need to walk through the show floor along with keeping a keen eye on dealers pages
I used to do a lot better in the "old" days.
No sour grapes, but I enjoyed the old days when your contacts and knowledge and time/effort put in translated into profit.
I succeeded because I learned more, knew more, applied what I knew, and simply outworked a lot of dealers who were, quite frankly, lazy.
When I worked a coin show, I worked it. I didn't sit around and BS and expect people to drop good deals in my lap.
eBay and the internet have really hurt coin shows, which is where I made 90% of my money.
I know that the information available now is many multiples of what it used to be, but it used to be a lot more fun.
The instant gratification/instant knowledge--the instant ease and availability of almost everything has partially sucked the fun out of it.
You may not believe me, but even with as many coin shows that I have set up at, or just walked, or most times, both....I would feel a little thrill of anticipation the night before. Every time, and I have set up at many many shows, going back 40 years now. Never gets old for me. Love every second of it.
But I just can't get even a little bit excited going online and looking at Ebay, etc. Tedious and too much like work. No fun.
I do it because the marketplace has forced me to, but I don't enjoy it.
Just my hopefully not bitter sounding 2c.
I'm not a dealer, but I play one on the Internet.
When I was a kid the only time I sold coins was back to the dealer I bought them from in my local B&M.
That's where I learned about grading and the spread. Coins I bought from him as XF turned into VF when I went to sell them back. Plus the buy/sell spread made each sale a losing proposition.
In my 20's I lost interest in coins due to life. In 2000, I was looking for an 8mm projector on eBay. Then I was wondering if they had coins on there. They did and I started buying.
In 2002 I had too many coins and started to sell them on eBay. I also played the Russ/MadMarty game of searching for 68-71 proof sets, send them to PCGS to sell on eBay. I made a lot of PR67 coins.
My point is the Internet made it easy for any schmuck with a computer and Internet connection to become a coin dealer. And that hurts B&M dealers.
My local B&M doesn't have anything exciting and he says he only keeps the shop open to buy coins that people bring in. When grandpa dies the kids bring in his coin collection and the B&M gets first shot at any gems.
I think that is the reason most B&M are still open (along with bullion). Selling on eBay is easy and a dealer setting up their own web site is easy as well. The hard part is to get a following who will buy your coins.
Once all the grandpa's pass on I think B&M shops will pretty much vanish with them. Coins will be sold on the Internet (hopefully something better than eBay).
Obviously I am not a dealer.... however, I would just like to contribute here.... I really enjoyed coin shows when I lived in the Northwest.... none where I live now... and NO coin shops...Yes, I have the BST and the internet, and I use them... That being said, I would much prefer to buy coins at a show or a coin shop.... I enjoy the personal interaction and being able to hold and view the product. I, for one, hope the B&M's survive.. and I do not believe coin shows will ever disappear... Cheers, RickO
B&M for 8 years
eBay for 15.
What Julian posted pretty much sums it up for this rookie.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Not a dealer either but an occasional seller on BS&T. Haven't sold on ebay for years.
I echo Rick's sentiment. When it comes to coins, I am a touchy-feely kind of guy. There's nothing like holding the coin in your hand or going to a show and poring over all the displays wondering what treasures wait in store. The exception to this is the BS&T. I'm very comfortable taking the members at their word. Never been burned. I have a great deal of trust for the forum members.
Cheers
Bob
Just to add to Bob's statement... I do like the BST and have always had good results there. Cheers, RickO
I like buying on the Internet, but I prefer to buy at shows and in shops where I can personally inspect the coins first.
eBay and online has revolutionized the coin business. The overhead of shows created a fixed cost hurdle I no longer have on eBay.
eBay has been a fantastic retail venue and super acquisition areana for me. When it first came out in 1998 retail was fantastic for me.
Now I can manage my eBay business from my iPhone. The eBay coin show is the biggest show around. Last week I retailed a coin there for half that $200 I had acquired for that a couple of months before. I sell at retail only and only a buyer if feel can make money on coin or banknote. I buy low / sell high - 10c on the dollar does not cut it in the coin biz.
I enjoy shows and occasionally setup to buy but I feel they are a fading venue. I do have an interest in partnering w someone on running small Staturday only shows. That way my table is free and can have where I want.
"My point is the Internet made it easy for any schmuck with a computer and Internet connection to become a coin dealer. And that hurts B&M dealers.
My local B&M doesn't have anything exciting and he says he only keeps the shop open to buy coins that people bring in. When grandpa dies the kids bring in his coin collection and the B&M gets first shot at any gems.
I think that is the reason most B&M are still open (along with bullion). Selling on eBay is easy and a dealer setting up their own web site is easy as well. The hard part is to get a following who will buy your coins.
Once all the grandpa's pass on I think B&M shops will pretty much vanish with them. Coins will be sold on the Internet (hopefully something better than eBay)."
Well stated, Yes, Yes, indeed.
"My point is the Internet made it easy for any schmuck with a computer and Internet connection to become a coin dealer."
I disagree as you forgot a key ingredient so I fixed it for ya .....
My point is the Internet made it easy for any schmuck with a computer and Internet connection and professional quality photo skills to become a coin dealer.
internet = advertising
Coin Club Benefit auctions ..... View the Lots
I am not a dealer but have found the internet is a dumping ground for lower end coins. I have never bought a coin using the internet because of the quality I see. I also like to be able to look at the coin at hands length with a loop. My experience has been the best coins never reach the internet as the dealers seem to have it sold prior as soon as they get it into their hands. The internet may will make dinosaurs out of the mom and pop dealers.. I base the above because all the nice coins I have are dealer supplied. Take a look at an expensive coin you like and look on the net for a rare example you like with a low pop are looking for and see what you can fine on E Bay. An example is my uncle got a early German made (1915) Officer Luger pistol in Europe as he was there the entire war. I looked on the internet at the Luger's for sale and all were common pieces made in other countries or were in terrible shape. It was a dumping ground for serious collectors that bought a collection that wanted to sell off the ones they did not want to keep or dealers that wanted to get rid of a problem re blued gun. It is not just coins that will be effected thus way but just about all collectibles.
My experience is that most B&M shops have bullion as about 90% of their business.
eBay helped my business to a certain extent. It gave me a great outlet for raw coins, and lower value stuff that all I could do with before but wholesale. However, now, I do not sell much of anything raw on eBay because of the potential of negative feedback is much higher on raw coins. I now sell that stuff at shows. So it is a wash. I think the eBay and PayPal fees actually hurt my business when I have to raise prices to cover those. There are coins that I sell where eBay/PayPal makes a bigger profit than I do, so it is just losing its competitive edge for me.
Overall, the coin show is still a very viable market for coins. People like to come in, look at coins in hand, and plunk down cash. You know exactly what you are getting, and you walk away with it in hand. That is very satisfying. It is also very satisfying being able to walk long rows of tables and see things at a rate and clip you cannot do on-line.
There are plenty of B&M dealers where I live (something like one per 100,000 population). Aside from Eagle Eye, none of the others has a national presence. They compete with the internet, and occasionally with hotel-room operators that sweep in periodically to fleece the public. With three or maybe four exceptions, the owners are not proficient graders either. With two exceptions, I would not trust them to give me what they think is honest opinions. The bullion market has kept most of these dealers in business. They aren't selling much in the way of better collector coins to the public. They do buy at low wholesale, and then take the coins to Long Beach to flip to other dealers.
Experienced B&M dealers, who aren't specialists, have developed the ability to make money from anything, even by buying and flipping avg circ Buffalo nickels or old silver flatware. Between TPGs and the internet, however, small generalist dealers have been hurt---the public can rely on third-party grades rather than just dealer's representations of grades and can use the internet to get an idea of what things are worth. When I started collecting coins more than 50 years ago, all we had was Coin World/Numismatic News and the Red/Blue Books for pricing, The availability of information via the internet has leveled the playing field to a considerable extent, from what dealers have told me.
Some B&M dealers have closed their physical places of business, in favor of doing business online, to cut recurring (non-travel) costs. Many dealers do use Ebay, particularly for selling material that they cannot sell in face-to-face transactions. Hence, the effect of the internet is not one-sided.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]