While the Chinese Mint contract will produce tons of profit for PCGS, the fact that they will now grade modern foreign issues ONLY raises their #'s. NGC will still have the advantage in the foreign coin market if coins from the new contract are not included. Maybe SEGS can get a contract with the US Mint to slab each Lincoln cent made. That should put SEGS over-the-top as the biggest TPGS of US issues...LOL!
@learningcoins said:
Maybe just a stupid thought or question, but could the services scan an image of every coin they see and enter it into a database much like fingerprints? Would everyone be unique, and if so, they could then scan new coins submitted and know they had seen it in the past and how it was graded.
Great thinking out of the box...This has been suggested as far back as 1972 before grading was routinely done at ANACS. The images were to be used to identify die struck fakes but they would also be useful for the internal grading record kept (along with the coin's weight) to help ID the coin if it were ever lost and to protect the service from any claim of switching.
Your "new" idea was suggested again to the owner of a major TPGS in the late 1990's to accomplish exactly what you point out. With a system such as this the grade assigned would never be changed unless an error was originally made. Back then, grading standards were NOT EVOLVING in any significant way. The person who proposed this joked that it would appear to be just like actual "computer grading" (Compugrade had failed years before).
Today, this system could be put into practice for "better" coins with little effort. Downside is that revenue from resubmissions would dry up. I've been told that the owner of a TPGS gave a presentation where he said something like: "Any coin worth sending in for grading once is worth sending in again!"
All coins at $50,000 and above or getting SecurePlus level are "fingerprinted" with patented technology by PCGS. So what you are stating is already happening.
@learningcoins said:
Maybe just a stupid thought or question, but could the services scan an image of every coin they see and enter it into a database much like fingerprints? Would everyone be unique, and if so, they could then scan new coins submitted and know they had seen it in the past and how it was graded.
NGC does image coins already and they show up when you do a cert lookup. PCGS may do this, but it is not part of a cert lookup (unless you pay for a true view or they decide the coin is worthy of being included in CoinFacts)
Now whether they can (or would) use this to try and determine if they have seen this before is another question.
Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
@ranshdow said:
I've got a 1904 $20 that I bought raw which came with an NGC AU58 cert. It was just slabbed at PCGS as MS61. I had another $20 in the submission that I thought for sure was a slider, it also came back 61. I was surprised, and I'm not complaining.
What is the big surprise? The line between an AU-58 gold twenty and a MS-61 or even 62 is NON EXISTANT 80% of the time. Long ago, commercial graders and dealers made sure that the old standard for uncirculated coins was obliterated. Now each of us (and each TPGS) needs to decide how much LOSS OF LUSTER, SURFACE FRICTION, and LOSS OF DESIGN DETAIL we are willing to allow on a coin with such things as mishandling, cabinet friction, weak strike, friction wear, and rub BEFORE we lower the coin's grade to the old AU standard. Want proof? Cover the grade of a few AU-58 and a MS-62 Liberty $20 and show them around. Stick in an AU-55 and really have some fun!
All coins at $50,000 and above or getting SecurePlus level are "fingerprinted" with patented technology by PCGS. So what you are stating is already happening.
Thing is, the collectors and dealers playing with coins at that level don't need "protection" near as much as the 99.99% of us peons dealing with coins in the $1 to $49,999 range. And I would think that up to $4,999 would cover 99% of collectors. The emphasis is in the wrong place. It's like the SEC only protecting those shareholders who have at least $50K in any one company's stock. There's no easy, cost-effective solution though.
All coins at $50,000 and above or getting SecurePlus level are "fingerprinted" with patented technology by PCGS. So what you are stating is already happening.
Thing is, the collectors and dealers playing with coins at that level don't need "protection" near as much as the 99.99% of us peons dealing with coins in the $1 to $49,999 range. And I would think that up to $4,999 would cover 99% of collectors. The emphasis is in the wrong place. It's like the SEC only protecting those shareholders who have at least $50K in any one company's stock. There's no easy, cost-effective solution though.
I agree with that. I think when it first came out, the threshold was $100,000. I imagine over time as they streamline their logistics that $50,000 number will come down. If the "peons" are concerned though, they can pay the extra $5 (is it $5?) for SecurePlus and get the "fingerprint" too. Let's be honest, the fingerprint for $50,000+ coins protects PCGS. The fingerprint for lower priced coins protects the "peons".
@earlycoins said:
As a bit of a spreadsheet and data nerd, I began to look into some of the pop comparisons offered.
While one might presume that pops of modern coins will continue to rise as more are pulled from shoe boxes and submitted, older coins don't work that way, unless a shipwreck is discovered. For example, with the last inventories from the Central America now available, 1857-S double eagle pops may double.
The 13-S lib nickel numbers caught my eye. Interesting coins, but not something about which I'm knowlegable. One email to someone in the know, gave me the word "hoard," and the mention earlier in this thread of two rolls, is huge.
I have two questions.
First, if one found that sort of hoard, wouldn't it be smarter to leak pieces into the marketplace, one at a time?
Second, and with all due respect, one must presume that Mr. Salzburg has this knowledge, and if that's the case, isn't this an inappropriate example?
Inquiring minds...
EC
I want to see these 13-S lib nickels!
I would certainly agree on releasing a large number into the market slowly.
Sorry about the 13-S. A typo, which I thought I had corrected.
All coins at $50,000 and above or getting SecurePlus level are "fingerprinted" with patented technology by PCGS. So what you are stating is already happening.
Thing is, the collectors and dealers playing with coins at that level don't need "protection" near as much as the 99.99% of us peons dealing with coins in the $1 to $49,999 range. And I would think that up to $4,999 would cover 99% of collectors. The emphasis is in the wrong place. It's like the SEC only protecting those shareholders who have at least $50K in any one company's stock. There's no easy, cost-effective solution though.
I'd wager the secure plus is more to protect the TPG than the submitter.
@learningcoins said:
Maybe just a stupid thought or question, but could the services scan an image of every coin they see and enter it into a database much like fingerprints? Would everyone be unique, and if so, they could then scan new coins submitted and know they had seen it in the past and how it was graded.
NGC does image coins already and they show up when you do a cert lookup. PCGS may do this, but it is not part of a cert lookup (unless you pay for a true view or they decide the coin is worthy of being included in CoinFacts)
Now whether they can (or would) use this to try and determine if they have seen this before is another question.
As I indicated earlier, a grader can't help but remember some of the coins he's graded, esp. if they aren't common widgets. When a $25K coin has been submitted 10 times in a year, it's a safe bet that some of the graders have seen it many times and if it's one finalizer they've seen it all 10 times. Maybe on the 25th try the submitter gets 2 graders who haven't seen it before or just coincidentally graded several like it and gives it a bump. The finalizer, who by now should know it like the back of his hand concurs [tho it makes one wonder why] with the bump.
@learningcoins said:
Maybe just a stupid thought or question, but could the services scan an image of every coin they see and enter it into a database much like fingerprints? Would everyone be unique, and if so, they could then scan new coins submitted and know they had seen it in the past and how it was graded.
NGC does image coins already and they show up when you do a cert lookup. PCGS may do this, but it is not part of a cert lookup (unless you pay for a true view or they decide the coin is worthy of being included in CoinFacts)
Now whether they can (or would) use this to try and determine if they have seen this before is another question.
As I indicated earlier, a grader can't help but remember some of the coins he's graded, esp. if they aren't common widgets. When a $25K coin has been submitted 10 times in a year, it's a safe bet that some of the graders have seen it many times and if it's one finalizer they've seen it all 10 times. Maybe on the 25th try the submitter gets 2 graders who haven't seen it before or just coincidentally graded several like it and gives it a bump. The finalizer, who by now should know it like the back of his hand concurs [tho it makes one wonder why] with the bump.
And if Secure Plus was required on all submissions that coin would most likely not upgrade on that 25th try.
Of course grading is not an exact science and there are coins that might grade a point higher 1 out of every 25 tries, even with the most expert of graders. That is especially the case when you know that it will not always be the same graders or finalizers looking at the coin. But if you put the full grading history in front of those same graders showing them that they all graded it the same the last 24 times, they most likely will not change their mind on the 25th try.
Secure Plus technology that can identify a coin that has been in for grading before, even when resubmitted raw, could help to curb this gradeflation, but obviously not all would be happy with that. Upgrades would not be (and are not) impossible with all coins going Secure Plus... but only very deserving coins would get the bump if the grader knows the previous grade(s) assigned.
There is little point in doing SecurePlus on a roll of BU 1884-O Morgans. SP was implemented for coins that had a certain value and would be amenable to doctoring by methods which involve moving metal and thereby resulting in a change of/in the coin's relief map type features. IIRC PCGS reserves the right to run a SP scan on a coin whether the submitter chooses the service or not.
IMO it would be easier and more efficient to photograph the coin and use that as a means of identifying if it had been submitted before.
@keets said:
**At least for the present though, NGC totally dominates the grading for world coins. **
looking at some of the additional grading the PCGS has begun doing in the past several years it seems clear "they" have a business plan to make inroads in areas where NGC had the lions share of all TPG's. Exonumia and World are the places where PCGS either did very little or none at all, now that is changing.
@Wabbit2313 said:
I met this guy recently and talk about arrogant by the way. Here is the lovely NGC MS-69 Morgan. I have MANY PCGS 67's that blow his 69 away! I posted one I just had graded at FUN right below the NGC coin. I invite you to click on the image and look up close. A 69 should be flawless to the eye.
My 67, graded less than 2 weeks ago!!
What a stunner! I like your 67 better.
Don't forget to include me in your generous giveaway!
Problem with this example is that it is very hard to grade by images, one needs to see the both coins in hand, and preferably side by side to draw a comparison......... Just putting images of two different coins taken by two different photographers and trying to draw comparisons makes no sense.
While images can lie - some marks on a coin disappear with the light at certain angles, the NGC coin is over graded in this example. That's a fact and not an opinion.
If you cannot see the difference between these two coins I suggest you take a grading seminar and only purchase slabs after you have asked half a dozen dealers their opinion about the coin in the slab you are buying. For a start, 1 or 2 miniscule contact marks (none in PFA) can be found on a typical MS-69 coin. Usually, you'll need to look to find them. The NGC coin has at least eight that are easily seen.
Finally, we can post images of over graded, under graded, and correctly graded coins slabbed by EVERY TPGS. NGC lost this comparison.
I thought my PCGS 67 had a shot at 68 but the haze in the right field might have cost me. There is NO WAY that NGC 69 should be anywhere near where it is. Does anyone here believe that NGC coin is the finest Morgan of all time? (Tied) Can anyone believe that they have the nerve to trash current PCGS grading standards? My 67 was graded a few days ago!
@Wabbit2313 said:
I met this guy recently and talk about arrogant by the way. Here is the lovely NGC MS-69 Morgan. I have MANY PCGS 67's that blow his 69 away! I posted one I just had graded at FUN right below the NGC coin. I invite you to click on the image and look up close. A 69 should be flawless to the eye.
My 67, graded less than 2 weeks ago!!
What a stunner! I like your 67 better.
Don't forget to include me in your generous giveaway!
Problem with this example is that it is very hard to grade by images, one needs to see the both coins in hand, and preferably side by side to draw a comparison......... Just putting images of two different coins taken by two different photographers and trying to draw comparisons makes no sense.
The comparison and point he is making is clear as day imo. The photos are good enough to show that the top coin is not a 69.
Not a chance without seeing in hand.............
Do you think all those whacks in the NGC MS69 coin are going to magically disappear in hand? Click on the image and take a look up close. I could see this is not a 69 from across the street.
@learningcoins said:
Maybe just a stupid thought or question, but could the services scan an image of every coin they see and enter it into a database much like fingerprints? Would everyone be unique, and if so, they could then scan new coins submitted and know they had seen it in the past and how it was graded.
NGC does image coins already and they show up when you do a cert lookup. PCGS may do this, but it is not part of a cert lookup (unless you pay for a true view or they decide the coin is worthy of being included in CoinFacts)
Now whether they can (or would) use this to try and determine if they have seen this before is another question.
As I indicated earlier, a grader can't help but remember some of the coins he's graded, esp. if they aren't common widgets. When a $25K coin has been submitted 10 times in a year, it's a safe bet that some of the graders have seen it many times and if it's one finalizer they've seen it all 10 times. Maybe on the 25th try the submitter gets 2 graders who haven't seen it before or just coincidentally graded several like it and gives it a bump. The finalizer, who by now should know it like the back of his hand concurs [tho it makes one wonder why] with the bump.
The graders on the expensive tiers see everything and have been there a long time. Any new graders in training for the expensive coins either have been there for a long time also grading lesser tiers or have demonstrated excellent skill. Anyway, they are on the coin IN ADDITION TO the regular graders
Interesting that value vs. pop charts of the same coins for NGC were not in the article for comparison. Seems like it would be useful to create and compare.
@keets said:
**At least for the present though, NGC totally dominates the grading for world coins. **
looking at some of the additional grading the PCGS has begun doing in the past several years it seems clear "they" have a business plan to make inroads in areas where NGC had the lions share of all TPG's. Exonumia and World are the places where PCGS either did very little or none at all, now that is changing.
If you had your choice would you rather have the optics provided by a clear see through holder or the prong one?
I think the TrueView service helps very nice world coins. I've seen an increasing number of very attractive world coin that are just not available ATS.
It's funny recently at NYINC I was interested in two World coins. Both were in NGC holders. The dealer said he was sending them to PCGS to cross which worked out perfectly as that's what I would have done anyways. I hope to hear back when the results are in. I actually don't care too much about the grade.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Wabbit2313 said:
I met this guy recently and talk about arrogant by the way. Here is the lovely NGC MS-69 Morgan. I have MANY PCGS 67's that blow his 69 away! I posted one I just had graded at FUN right below the NGC coin. I invite you to click on the image and look up close. A 69 should be flawless to the eye.
My 67, graded less than 2 weeks ago!!
What a stunner! I like your 67 better.
Don't forget to include me in your generous giveaway!
Problem with this example is that it is very hard to grade by images, one needs to see the both coins in hand, and preferably side by side to draw a comparison......... Just putting images of two different coins taken by two different photographers and trying to draw comparisons makes no sense.
While images can lie - some marks on a coin disappear with the light at certain angles, the NGC coin is over graded in this example. That's a fact and not an opinion.
If you cannot see the difference between these two coins I suggest you take a grading seminar and only purchase slabs after you have asked half a dozen dealers their opinion about the coin in the slab you are buying. For a start, 1 or 2 miniscule contact marks (none in PFA) can be found on a typical MS-69 coin. Usually, you'll need to look to find them. The NGC coin has at least eight that are easily seen.
Finally, we can post images of over graded, under graded, and correctly graded coins slabbed by EVERY TPGS. NGC lost this comparison.
If you read carefully my statement above, I simply stated that I won't judge any coin until I see it in hand. That comes from viewing 10,0000s (probably 100,000s by now) of coins in hand at lot viewing and at big shows. Like it or not Images lie, for the reasons I stated above. This opinion by me has nothing to do with whether I have grading skills or not and I don't get why you are even telling me what I can and cannot see. Hence drawing comparisons between images can lead to incorrect assessments. If you have a problem with my opinion, that is fine, but don't demean me by telling me I need to taking a grading seminar, yikes.
@baseball said:
IMHO, I don't think the article was good for anyone. Not PCGS. Not NGC. Not collectors. It very much had the feel of "We may go down in flames, but we're taking everyone with us."
As long as they have the world grading market domination, they are not going down in flames. But this was obviously a poorly handled way of trying to regain market share for US coins and I agree it is not good for anyone in numismatics.
Best, SH
I probably used the wrong choice of words. I don't think NGC is necessarily going down anytime soon. But Salzberg's mentality seems to be that of someone who'd rather see both parties suffer miserably, rather than both being successful if it means that PCGS will be even more successful than them. We see it many times in our lives and no more so than in a divorce where jilted spouses are concerned. But being the head of a renown entity and business like NGC, it stuns me that he would even remotely considering going public with such comments.
Mostly agree with this, Salzberg really did a bad thing for numismatics with his letter, and it seems to be an act of desperation for loosing market share to PCGS. Not the best way to try to recover that market share and will likely work in the opposite manner.
@Wabbit2313 said:
I met this guy recently and talk about arrogant by the way. Here is the lovely NGC MS-69 Morgan. I have MANY PCGS 67's that blow his 69 away! I posted one I just had graded at FUN right below the NGC coin. I invite you to click on the image and look up close. A 69 should be flawless to the eye.
My 67, graded less than 2 weeks ago!!
What a stunner! I like your 67 better.
Don't forget to include me in your generous giveaway!
Problem with this example is that it is very hard to grade by images, one needs to see the both coins in hand, and preferably side by side to draw a comparison......... Just putting images of two different coins taken by two different photographers and trying to draw comparisons makes no sense.
The comparison and point he is making is clear as day imo. The photos are good enough to show that the top coin is not a 69.
Not a chance without seeing in hand.............
Do you think all those whacks in the NGC MS69 coin are going to magically disappear in hand? Click on the image and take a look up close. I could see this is not a 69 from across the street.
I neither believer or not believe until I see in hand, that is all I am saying and that is based on seeing lotso coins in hand and spending the last 7 years imaging 1000s of coins. Images lie. Could be the P67 has lotsa whacks too, but depending on how one images it, you can hide those. Could be the N69 was so poorly imaged that is brings out things that are not really as bad as it looks. If one takes the images at face value, looks like a N65 to me. NGC graders would not put a 65 into a 69 holder (hopefully), so again, I would have to see it in hand to see why the images are showing what they show. I simply would not make a decision on a coin until I see it in hand. Just sayin'
@baseball said:
IMHO, I don't think the article was good for anyone. Not PCGS. Not NGC. Not collectors. It very much had the feel of "We may go down in flames, but we're taking everyone with us."
As long as they have the world grading market domination, they are not going down in flames. But this was obviously a poorly handled way of trying to regain market share for US coins and I agree it is not good for anyone in numismatics.
Best, SH
I probably used the wrong choice of words. I don't think NGC is necessarily going down anytime soon. But Salzberg's mentality seems to be that of someone who'd rather see both parties suffer miserably, rather than both being successful if it means that PCGS will be even more successful than them. We see it many times in our lives and no more so than in a divorce where jilted spouses are concerned. But being the head of a renown entity and business like NGC, it stuns me that he would even remotely considering going public with such comments.
Mostly agree with this, Salzberg really did a bad thing for numismatics with his letter, and it seems to be an act of desperation for loosing market share to PCGS. Not the best way to try to recover that market share and will likely work in the opposite manner.
Best, SH
Salzberg did more damage to his market share problem than he will probably ever realize when he kicked the PCGS coins off of his registry. I for one won't go out of my way to support NGC any more, and I've told them so on their blog. I have heard the same thing from people who once gave Salzberg support. He has lost me and many others.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@Wabbit2313 said:
I met this guy recently and talk about arrogant by the way. Here is the lovely NGC MS-69 Morgan. I have MANY PCGS 67's that blow his 69 away! I posted one I just had graded at FUN right below the NGC coin. I invite you to click on the image and look up close. A 69 should be flawless to the eye.
My 67, graded less than 2 weeks ago!!
What a stunner! I like your 67 better.
Don't forget to include me in your generous giveaway!
Problem with this example is that it is very hard to grade by images, one needs to see the both coins in hand, and preferably side by side to draw a comparison......... Just putting images of two different coins taken by two different photographers and trying to draw comparisons makes no sense.
While images can lie - some marks on a coin disappear with the light at certain angles, the NGC coin is over graded in this example. That's a fact and not an opinion.
If you cannot see the difference between these two coins I suggest you take a grading seminar and only purchase slabs after you have asked half a dozen dealers their opinion about the coin in the slab you are buying. For a start, 1 or 2 miniscule contact marks (none in PFA) can be found on a typical MS-69 coin. Usually, you'll need to look to find them. The NGC coin has at least eight that are easily seen.
Finally, we can post images of over graded, under graded, and correctly graded coins slabbed by EVERY TPGS. NGC lost this comparison.
If you read carefully my statement above, I simply stated that I won't judge any coin until I see it in hand. That comes from viewing 10,0000s (probably 100,000s by now) of coins in hand at lot viewing and at big shows. Like it or not Images lie, for the reasons I stated above. This opinion by me has nothing to do with whether I have grading skills or not and I don't get why you are even telling me what I can and cannot see. Hence drawing comparisons between images can lead to incorrect assessments. If you have a problem with my opinion, that is fine, but don't demean me by telling me I need to taking a grading seminar, yikes.
Your original post and that of another member shocked me. What have you learned after viewing 100K+ coins?
Obviously, coins are generally not authenticated or graded using photos! Nevertheless, many people post images and seek opinions by more qualified members such as you. Imagine your frustration if after posting an image all the replies stated: I can't tell without holding the actual coin. Why post at all? It comes across to me as: "I don't know anything; yet this is my opinion."
As for the comparison of the two slabs, I assure you that I can take a YN in basic grading 101 and show/tell HER what the characteristics of an MS-69 coin are and SHE would know using the posted image that the coin was over graded.
This proves what I have always heard/learned in grading seminars. It is not about how many coins you have seen; it's about...
I guess I expect too much from CU members. That is why I owe you a sincere apology.
@Wabbit2313 said:
I met this guy recently and talk about arrogant by the way. Here is the lovely NGC MS-69 Morgan. I have MANY PCGS 67's that blow his 69 away! I posted one I just had graded at FUN right below the NGC coin. I invite you to click on the image and look up close. A 69 should be flawless to the eye.
My 67, graded less than 2 weeks ago!!
What a stunner! I like your 67 better.
Don't forget to include me in your generous giveaway!
Problem with this example is that it is very hard to grade by images, one needs to see the both coins in hand, and preferably side by side to draw a comparison......... Just putting images of two different coins taken by two different photographers and trying to draw comparisons makes no sense.
While images can lie - some marks on a coin disappear with the light at certain angles, the NGC coin is over graded in this example. That's a fact and not an opinion.
If you cannot see the difference between these two coins I suggest you take a grading seminar and only purchase slabs after you have asked half a dozen dealers their opinion about the coin in the slab you are buying. For a start, 1 or 2 miniscule contact marks (none in PFA) can be found on a typical MS-69 coin. Usually, you'll need to look to find them. The NGC coin has at least eight that are easily seen.
Finally, we can post images of over graded, under graded, and correctly graded coins slabbed by EVERY TPGS. NGC lost this comparison.
Seems the PCGS 67 has been center punched several times on Liberty's neck. Could just be the images though, might look better in hand wink:
@Wabbit2313 said:
I met this guy recently and talk about arrogant by the way. Here is the lovely NGC MS-69 Morgan. I have MANY PCGS 67's that blow his 69 away! I posted one I just had graded at FUN right below the NGC coin. I invite you to click on the image and look up close. A 69 should be flawless to the eye.
My 67, graded less than 2 weeks ago!!
What a stunner! I like your 67 better.
Don't forget to include me in your generous giveaway!
Problem with this example is that it is very hard to grade by images, one needs to see the both coins in hand, and preferably side by side to draw a comparison......... Just putting images of two different coins taken by two different photographers and trying to draw comparisons makes no sense.
While images can lie - some marks on a coin disappear with the light at certain angles, the NGC coin is over graded in this example. That's a fact and not an opinion.
If you cannot see the difference between these two coins I suggest you take a grading seminar and only purchase slabs after you have asked half a dozen dealers their opinion about the coin in the slab you are buying. For a start, 1 or 2 miniscule contact marks (none in PFA) can be found on a typical MS-69 coin. Usually, you'll need to look to find them. The NGC coin has at least eight that are easily seen.
Finally, we can post images of over graded, under graded, and correctly graded coins slabbed by EVERY TPGS. NGC lost this comparison.
If you read carefully my statement above, I simply stated that I won't judge any coin until I see it in hand. That comes from viewing 10,0000s (probably 100,000s by now) of coins in hand at lot viewing and at big shows. Like it or not Images lie, for the reasons I stated above. This opinion by me has nothing to do with whether I have grading skills or not and I don't get why you are even telling me what I can and cannot see. Hence drawing comparisons between images can lead to incorrect assessments. If you have a problem with my opinion, that is fine, but don't demean me by telling me I need to taking a grading seminar, yikes.
Your original post and that of another member shocked me. What have you learned after viewing 100K+ coins?
Obviously, coins are generally not authenticated or graded using photos! Nevertheless, many people post images and seek opinions by more qualified members such as you. Imagine your frustration if after posting an image all the replies stated: I can't tell without holding the actual coin. Why post at all? It comes across to me as: "I don't know anything; yet this is my opinion."
As for the comparison of the two slabs, I assure you that I can take a YN in basic grading 101 and show/tell HER what the characteristics of an MS-69 coin are and SHE would know using the posted image that the coin was over graded.
This proves what I have always heard/learned in grading seminars. It is not about how many coins you have seen; it's about...
I guess I expect too much from CU members. That is why I owe you a sincere apology.
Your sarcastic apology is not appropriate behavior on these boards, nor is flaming out on me for posting an opinion. What I have learned viewing 100K of coins is that images lie and I won't make a comparison between these coins without seeing them in hand. You ever been burned by buying a coin online from an image only to find some hidden dings that were not in the image? Ever been pleasantly pleased when a coin looked like it had some problems in an image only to have it show up, view it in hand, and realize those problems were artifacts of the images? You ever spent time taking images of coins? If you had any of these experiences you may be able to identify where my opinion is coming from. For some reason, NGC graded this 69, they could have had a bad day and it may be overgraded, or it could be the images are not accurate. Both probably happen frequently. So all I am saying is that I won't try to compare these two coins until I see them in hand. So your demeaning, sarcastic statements should be left somewhere else.
My PCGS coins were registered at NGC. How those sets competed with other sets at the NGC registry was something I found interesting....but not particularly important.
My two sets at the NGC registry each dropped from a top 5 position to last place when PCGS coins were excluded. About the same time I received an email promoting the idea of crossing my coins from PCGS to NGC.
NGC's exclusion of PCGS coins from its registry and the Salzberg article will hopefully serve a useful purpose by ending the idea of including NGC coins in the PCGS registry. A second good effect of their email is it that it nudged me to unsubscribe from their future emails.
Well, from my perspective, Mark's article was plain stupid.
He did not analyze why the pops have gone up at PCGS.
First, several rolls were finally broken up of the 1912-S nickel and garnered very high grades at PCGS.
Same with the 1945-S walker. More rolls are still coming.
For example, I own a fabulous original 1936-S BU quarter roll that I do not dare submit for grading as it will crash this date/mm pricing.
Also, the PCGS pops may have also become overstated more recently by virtue of cracking out and resubmitting hoping for a atill higher grade and only getting the same grade as before.
Furthermore, Mark ignores the huge number of raw modern coins that eventually get graded by PCGS. It takes a while but eventually the pop eventually explodes, eventually depressing prices. Classic collectors always warn modern collectors of this probability. This is a well known argument between "purist classic collectors" and "upstart modern coin collectors."
The 18th and 19th century coin collectors have NOT had the same overall extreme experience as Mark expressed. Yes, there is some inflation in grading. But not a 10 fold increase in pops.
In the area I like to collect, the J-2054 zinc plated steel experimental cents of 1942 produced AT the US Mint in late 1942 the pops in ALL GRADES have not changed at all at PCGS in the past 7 YEARS!
On the other hand, the J-2060 which are the brown "plastic " cents minted at various locations using the US Mint prepared dies, the pops have certainly grown sugnificantly as the prices have RISEN to entice holders of the raw pieces to submit for grading and not surprisingly at NGC which gives them a easy path to the previously unheard of MS-67 grade.
I happen to own three PCGS PR65 J-2060 and each one of them are far nicer than the one NGC MS-67 I also own !!! (PCGS calls them PR and NGC calls them MS which is not part of this discussion).
Undoubtedly NGC is out of control in the excessive grading of these 1942 "brown plastic patterns" and has suddenly graded 3 in MS-67 when their MS-66 is nicer than all of their own 67's.
This is not just my own opinion as CAC has agreed with my thinking as all of my PCGS and my old NGC slabs up to MS-66 has received a sticker. But none of the NGC MS-67.
I must confess that I do not care about the grades these 1942 "patterns" garner but only saved them in their original slabs to protect their possible future provenance. But throwing stones from a glass house simply is stupid.
@oreville said:
For example, I own a fabulous original 1936-S BU quarter roll that I do not dare submit for grading as it will crash this date/mm pricing.
I would submit them and flip them as quickly as I could (below current auction price to move them quickly before the price drop shows in the auction records) if they receive very high grades . The prices on the larger series have already gone down and probably have farther to fall.
I own (1) of the pop 4 finest known 1936-S coins ever graded by PCGS in their (30) year history. I have no worries about an original roll of 36-S BU quarters yielding anything significant that would impact the current pop. With any luck there might be one or two MS67 coins in the roll. Highly unlikely the finest known MS67+ pop would even go up by more than a single coin. I would bet the "under" that not one finest known MS67+ coin would slab out of the roll and increase the "top pop" population. In the VERY unikely event more than one finest known coin was slabbed from that roll, I would consider buying them all at a very fair price. PLEASE slab that roll in the next 30-60 days and call me Oreville!!
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
@oreville said:
For example, I own a fabulous original 1936-S BU quarter roll that I do not dare submit for grading as it will crash this date/mm pricing.
I would submit them and flip them as quickly as I could (below current auction price to move them quickly before the price drop shows in the auction records) if they receive very high grades . The prices on the larger series have already gone down and probably have farther to fall.
Would it be better to submit and sell one at a time vs. having them graded and added to the pops at the same time?
**In the VERY unikely event more than one finest known coin was slabbed from that roll, I would consider buying them all at a very fair price. PLEASE slab that roll in the next 30-60 days and call me Oreville!! **
Knowing how tough it is just to get a MS67 grade today, and that PCGS has reviewed 2800 submissions of the 1936-s quarter to get the current number of 55 MS67's (2.0% ave. hit rate). In the last 10 yrs the hit rate has been 3.67%. So out of 40 coin roll the odds of getting a single MS67 from an original roll would be favorable. The first 1,000 submissions produced 2 MS67's. The next thousand another 18. And the next thousand so far 35. The rate since 1998 has been fairly consistent.
Oct 1998 total submissions 989, MS66 - 43, MS67 - 2
July 2007 total submissions 1923, MS66 - 229, MS67 - 20
Jan 2017 total submissions 2797, MS66 - 331, MS67 - 55
@oreville said:
For example, I own a fabulous original 1936-S BU quarter roll that I do not dare submit for grading as it will crash this date/mm pricing.
I would submit them and flip them as quickly as I could (below current auction price to move them quickly before the price drop shows in the auction records) if they receive very high grades . The prices on the larger series have already gone down and probably have farther to fall.
The best way to disperse a high grade roll is to grade them all at once. Figure their values based on the existing population and the newly graded coins. Offer them at a fixed price and do not alter the pricing structure. Do not try and hide anything. Perhaps give them to various dealers at a 10% discount but all at the same price. Do not let them undercut you. This way you won't destroy the market you are trying to sell into. DO NOT put them in auctions.
RR... My opinion on the roll yielding or not yielding a "finest known" coin relates to an MS67+ coin only. We are both in agreement that the roll could yield an MS67 coin or two. And, if that was the case, the net profit might not greatly exceed the cost of grading the (40) coin roll. MS67+ is the "money coin" and I would happily buy two or three or five more PCGS examples at the right price to "bury" in a bank vault for the next 10 or 15 years.
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
WC, we're on the same page. While the odds are pretty decent of producing an MS67 from that "random" roll, I doubt it would yield an MS67+. Though, one advantage to a full roll submission is that if there are some 66 and 67 coins, and then a coin that is clearly superior to them all, the odds increase of getting that 67+. But who knows. Oreville may have had his pick of the best original roll out of a small hoard of them.....and picked the big dog.
@Wabbit2313 said:
I met this guy recently and talk about arrogant by the way. Here is the lovely NGC MS-69 Morgan. I have MANY PCGS 67's that blow his 69 away! I posted one I just had graded at FUN right below the NGC coin. I invite you to click on the image and look up close. A 69 should be flawless to the eye.
My 67, graded less than 2 weeks ago!!
What a stunner! I like your 67 better.
Don't forget to include me in your generous giveaway!
Problem with this example is that it is very hard to grade by images, one needs to see the both coins in hand, and preferably side by side to draw a comparison......... Just putting images of two different coins taken by two different photographers and trying to draw comparisons makes no sense.
While images can lie - some marks on a coin disappear with the light at certain angles, the NGC coin is over graded in this example. That's a fact and not an opinion.
If you cannot see the difference between these two coins I suggest you take a grading seminar and only purchase slabs after you have asked half a dozen dealers their opinion about the coin in the slab you are buying. For a start, 1 or 2 miniscule contact marks (none in PFA) can be found on a typical MS-69 coin. Usually, you'll need to look to find them. The NGC coin has at least eight that are easily seen.
Finally, we can post images of over graded, under graded, and correctly graded coins slabbed by EVERY TPGS. NGC lost this comparison.
Seems the PCGS 67 has been center punched several times on Liberty's neck. Could just be the images though, might look better in hand wink:
You are absolutely correct. In the case of this coin, I believe the clean cheek got it to MS-66 and the color bumped it up to a 67 because in all honesty, when I looked at the coin and thought it was correctly graded I DID NOT EVEN NOTICE the baggy neck due to the coin's eye appeal!
@Wabbit2313 said:
I met this guy recently and talk about arrogant by the way. Here is the lovely NGC MS-69 Morgan. I have MANY PCGS 67's that blow his 69 away! I posted one I just had graded at FUN right below the NGC coin. I invite you to click on the image and look up close. A 69 should be flawless to the eye.
My 67, graded less than 2 weeks ago!!
What a stunner! I like your 67 better.
Don't forget to include me in your generous giveaway!
Problem with this example is that it is very hard to grade by images, one needs to see the both coins in hand, and preferably side by side to draw a comparison......... Just putting images of two different coins taken by two different photographers and trying to draw comparisons makes no sense.
While images can lie - some marks on a coin disappear with the light at certain angles, the NGC coin is over graded in this example. That's a fact and not an opinion.
If you cannot see the difference between these two coins I suggest you take a grading seminar and only purchase slabs after you have asked half a dozen dealers their opinion about the coin in the slab you are buying. For a start, 1 or 2 miniscule contact marks (none in PFA) can be found on a typical MS-69 coin. Usually, you'll need to look to find them. The NGC coin has at least eight that are easily seen.
Finally, we can post images of over graded, under graded, and correctly graded coins slabbed by EVERY TPGS. NGC lost this comparison.
If you read carefully my statement above, I simply stated that I won't judge any coin until I see it in hand. That comes from viewing 10,0000s (probably 100,000s by now) of coins in hand at lot viewing and at big shows. Like it or not Images lie, for the reasons I stated above. This opinion by me has nothing to do with whether I have grading skills or not and I don't get why you are even telling me what I can and cannot see. Hence drawing comparisons between images can lead to incorrect assessments. If you have a problem with my opinion, that is fine, but don't demean me by telling me I need to taking a grading seminar, yikes.
Your original post and that of another member shocked me. What have you learned after viewing 100K+ coins?
Obviously, coins are generally not authenticated or graded using photos! Nevertheless, many people post images and seek opinions by more qualified members such as you. Imagine your frustration if after posting an image all the replies stated: I can't tell without holding the actual coin. Why post at all? It comes across to me as: "I don't know anything; yet this is my opinion."
As for the comparison of the two slabs, I assure you that I can take a YN in basic grading 101 and show/tell HER what the characteristics of an MS-69 coin are and SHE would know using the posted image that the coin was over graded.
This proves what I have always heard/learned in grading seminars. It is not about how many coins you have seen; it's about...
I guess I expect too much from CU members. That is why I owe you a sincere apology.
Your sarcastic apology is not appropriate behavior on these boards, nor is flaming out on me for posting an opinion. What I have learned viewing 100K of coins is that images lie and I won't make a comparison between these coins without seeing them in hand. You ever been burned by buying a coin online from an image only to find some hidden dings that were not in the image? Ever been pleasantly pleased when a coin looked like it had some problems in an image only to have it show up, view it in hand, and realize those problems were artifacts of the images? You ever spent time taking images of coins? If you had any of these experiences you may be able to identify where my opinion is coming from. For some reason, NGC graded this 69, they could have had a bad day and it may be overgraded, or it could be the images are not accurate. Both probably happen frequently. So all I am saying is that I won't try to compare these two coins until I see them in hand. So your demeaning, sarcastic statements should be left somewhere else.
@Wabbit2313 said:
I met this guy recently and talk about arrogant by the way. Here is the lovely NGC MS-69 Morgan. I have MANY PCGS 67's that blow his 69 away! I posted one I just had graded at FUN right below the NGC coin. I invite you to click on the image and look up close. A 69 should be flawless to the eye.
My 67, graded less than 2 weeks ago!!
What a stunner! I like your 67 better.
Don't forget to include me in your generous giveaway!
Problem with this example is that it is very hard to grade by images, one needs to see the both coins in hand, and preferably side by side to draw a comparison......... Just putting images of two different coins taken by two different photographers and trying to draw comparisons makes no sense.
While images can lie - some marks on a coin disappear with the light at certain angles, the NGC coin is over graded in this example. That's a fact and not an opinion.
If you cannot see the difference between these two coins I suggest you take a grading seminar and only purchase slabs after you have asked half a dozen dealers their opinion about the coin in the slab you are buying. For a start, 1 or 2 miniscule contact marks (none in PFA) can be found on a typical MS-69 coin. Usually, you'll need to look to find them. The NGC coin has at least eight that are easily seen.
Finally, we can post images of over graded, under graded, and correctly graded coins slabbed by EVERY TPGS. NGC lost this comparison.
If you read carefully my statement above, I simply stated that I won't judge any coin until I see it in hand. That comes from viewing 10,0000s (probably 100,000s by now) of coins in hand at lot viewing and at big shows. Like it or not Images lie, for the reasons I stated above. This opinion by me has nothing to do with whether I have grading skills or not and I don't get why you are even telling me what I can and cannot see. Hence drawing comparisons between images can lead to incorrect assessments. If you have a problem with my opinion, that is fine, but don't demean me by telling me I need to taking a grading seminar, yikes.
Your original post and that of another member shocked me. What have you learned after viewing 100K+ coins?
Obviously, coins are generally not authenticated or graded using photos! Nevertheless, many people post images and seek opinions by more qualified members such as you. Imagine your frustration if after posting an image all the replies stated: I can't tell without holding the actual coin. Why post at all? It comes across to me as: "I don't know anything; yet this is my opinion."
As for the comparison of the two slabs, I assure you that I can take a YN in basic grading 101 and show/tell HER what the characteristics of an MS-69 coin are and SHE would know using the posted image that the coin was over graded.
This proves what I have always heard/learned in grading seminars. It is not about how many coins you have seen; it's about...
I guess I expect too much from CU members. That is why I owe you a sincere apology.
Your sarcastic apology is not appropriate behavior on these boards, nor is flaming out on me for posting an opinion. What I have learned viewing 100K of coins is that images lie and I won't make a comparison between these coins without seeing them in hand. You ever been burned by buying a coin online from an image only to find some hidden dings that were not in the image? Ever been pleasantly pleased when a coin looked like it had some problems in an image only to have it show up, view it in hand, and realize those problems were artifacts of the images? You ever spent time taking images of coins? If you had any of these experiences you may be able to identify where my opinion is coming from. For some reason, NGC graded this 69, they could have had a bad day and it may be overgraded, or it could be the images are not accurate. Both probably happen frequently. So all I am saying is that I won't try to compare these two coins until I see them in hand. So your demeaning, sarcastic statements should be left somewhere else.
As I wrote, I expected more from the professionals on this website. Apparently, you have not been around a group of numismatists who CHALLENGE the opinions of each other in the ways we do. I should especially like to have a recording of the chatter that goes on inside a TPGS. I've heard stories of "four eyes" and "dirty hand lens" comments.
Nevertheless, I feel I'd be better off letting the female YN sit by me when I evaluate a coin's image on the Internet.
I am no expert at grading. I joined this site to learn things AND to POST honest, and helpful advice for people who may not know very much about coins. I am a sarcastic old man who does not suffer what I consider to be nonsense very well. My apology was sincere.
Your original post indicated to me that you needed some help with your grading skills - that's all. I've learned something in every grading seminar I have taken and suggested you take a class. That said, after revealing your impressive credentials and calling me out for some innocent advice, I'll never reach the high degree of numismatic grading talent that you have developed from looking at that vast number of coins! Thank you for setting me straight.
Sounds to me like the man is feeling somewhat desperate. About something. I think I know what's really bothering him. Ripping into PCGS will not help. Being #2 isn't all that bad. It could be worse.
I am no expert at grading. I joined this site to learn things AND to POST honest, and helpful advice for people who may not know very much about coins. I am a sarcastic old man who does not suffer what I consider to be nonsense very well. My apology was sincere.
Your original post indicated to me that you needed some help with your grading skills - that's all. I've learned something in every grading seminar I have taken and suggested you take a class. That said, after revealing your impressive credentials and calling me out for some innocent advice, I'll never reach the high degree of numismatic grading talent that you have developed from looking at that vast number of coins! Thank you for setting me straight.
I am simply saying I am not going to pass final judgement on a coin until I see it in hand. Stated again which you have not acknowledged - Pictures can lie (and do) and I gave you examples and it can be full of pitfalls to come to a final conclusion based solely on an image. I have to ask a question to myself when I see these images - why did NGC give it a 69? Clearly taking the image at face value, it is hard to grade it at 69. So the alternative is that NGC graders had a bad day (that day would include probably 2 graders and a finalizer that missed it), or the images aren't telling the whole story. My experience in talking to NGC graders, whom I have met 3, is that they know their stuff which is why they are hired to grade, hard to see how they could make that kind of a mistake on a regular basis. So I sit on the side of caution with that image - love to see that in hand before decreeing its fate. Nuff said on this let's get back to the topic of what the heck is Salzburg thinking when he sent that letter out?
The article lost all credibility when he leaded off and highlighted the 1912-S pops. It's is very well known that a couple rolls were working their way into the market. It was a very specific issue with this date. I would be shocked if he didn't know that. Using that coin to show gradeflation made me ignore the rest of his article
Full disclosure, for multiple reasons, I prefer NCG over all the other TPGS. Nevertheless, I think the Willis letter was very well done. First Round: Technical knockout. PCGS wins!
Five years ago I bought a petite head, large letters 1843 cent at auction. NGC AU58. When I cracked it out for my Dansco album I discovered a big rim ding that was hidden behind the holder's solid white prong.
I complained to NGC with pictures from the auction and raw ones. They wouldn't own up to it. The only offer I got was that they'd reholder the coin in the same fashion so I could sell it.
That is not what I expect from a major TPG. I ended my relationship with NGC then.
Lance.
Comments
While the Chinese Mint contract will produce tons of profit for PCGS, the fact that they will now grade modern foreign issues ONLY raises their #'s. NGC will still have the advantage in the foreign coin market if coins from the new contract are not included. Maybe SEGS can get a contract with the US Mint to slab each Lincoln cent made. That should put SEGS over-the-top as the biggest TPGS of US issues...LOL!
All coins at $50,000 and above or getting SecurePlus level are "fingerprinted" with patented technology by PCGS. So what you are stating is already happening.
NGC does image coins already and they show up when you do a cert lookup. PCGS may do this, but it is not part of a cert lookup (unless you pay for a true view or they decide the coin is worthy of being included in CoinFacts)
Now whether they can (or would) use this to try and determine if they have seen this before is another question.
What is the big surprise? The line between an AU-58 gold twenty and a MS-61 or even 62 is NON EXISTANT 80% of the time. Long ago, commercial graders and dealers made sure that the old standard for uncirculated coins was obliterated. Now each of us (and each TPGS) needs to decide how much LOSS OF LUSTER, SURFACE FRICTION, and LOSS OF DESIGN DETAIL we are willing to allow on a coin with such things as mishandling, cabinet friction, weak strike, friction wear, and rub BEFORE we lower the coin's grade to the old AU standard. Want proof? Cover the grade of a few AU-58 and a MS-62 Liberty $20 and show them around. Stick in an AU-55 and really have some fun!
Thing is, the collectors and dealers playing with coins at that level don't need "protection" near as much as the 99.99% of us peons dealing with coins in the $1 to $49,999 range. And I would think that up to $4,999 would cover 99% of collectors. The emphasis is in the wrong place. It's like the SEC only protecting those shareholders who have at least $50K in any one company's stock. There's no easy, cost-effective solution though.
I agree with that. I think when it first came out, the threshold was $100,000. I imagine over time as they streamline their logistics that $50,000 number will come down. If the "peons" are concerned though, they can pay the extra $5 (is it $5?) for SecurePlus and get the "fingerprint" too. Let's be honest, the fingerprint for $50,000+ coins protects PCGS. The fingerprint for lower priced coins protects the "peons".
Sorry about the 13-S. A typo, which I thought I had corrected.
I'd wager the secure plus is more to protect the TPG than the submitter.
As I indicated earlier, a grader can't help but remember some of the coins he's graded, esp. if they aren't common widgets. When a $25K coin has been submitted 10 times in a year, it's a safe bet that some of the graders have seen it many times and if it's one finalizer they've seen it all 10 times. Maybe on the 25th try the submitter gets 2 graders who haven't seen it before or just coincidentally graded several like it and gives it a bump. The finalizer, who by now should know it like the back of his hand concurs [tho it makes one wonder why] with the bump.
And if Secure Plus was required on all submissions that coin would most likely not upgrade on that 25th try.
Of course grading is not an exact science and there are coins that might grade a point higher 1 out of every 25 tries, even with the most expert of graders. That is especially the case when you know that it will not always be the same graders or finalizers looking at the coin. But if you put the full grading history in front of those same graders showing them that they all graded it the same the last 24 times, they most likely will not change their mind on the 25th try.
Secure Plus technology that can identify a coin that has been in for grading before, even when resubmitted raw, could help to curb this gradeflation, but obviously not all would be happy with that. Upgrades would not be (and are not) impossible with all coins going Secure Plus... but only very deserving coins would get the bump if the grader knows the previous grade(s) assigned.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
There is little point in doing SecurePlus on a roll of BU 1884-O Morgans. SP was implemented for coins that had a certain value and would be amenable to doctoring by methods which involve moving metal and thereby resulting in a change of/in the coin's relief map type features. IIRC PCGS reserves the right to run a SP scan on a coin whether the submitter chooses the service or not.
IMO it would be easier and more efficient to photograph the coin and use that as a means of identifying if it had been submitted before.
Still many of the nicest coins end up in the PCGS holders like this one: http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=9761333
If you had your choice would you rather have the optics provided by a clear see through holder or the prong one?
ZeroHedge makes debut at White House press corps briefing
I thought my PCGS 67 had a shot at 68 but the haze in the right field might have cost me. There is NO WAY that NGC 69 should be anywhere near where it is. Does anyone here believe that NGC coin is the finest Morgan of all time? (Tied) Can anyone believe that they have the nerve to trash current PCGS grading standards? My 67 was graded a few days ago!
Do you think all those whacks in the NGC MS69 coin are going to magically disappear in hand? Click on the image and take a look up close. I could see this is not a 69 from across the street.
The graders on the expensive tiers see everything and have been there a long time. Any new graders in training for the expensive coins either have been there for a long time also grading lesser tiers or have demonstrated excellent skill. Anyway, they are on the coin IN ADDITION TO the regular graders
Interesting that value vs. pop charts of the same coins for NGC were not in the article for comparison. Seems like it would be useful to create and compare.
I think the TrueView service helps very nice world coins. I've seen an increasing number of very attractive world coin that are just not available ATS.
It's funny recently at NYINC I was interested in two World coins. Both were in NGC holders. The dealer said he was sending them to PCGS to cross which worked out perfectly as that's what I would have done anyways. I hope to hear back when the results are in. I actually don't care too much about the grade.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
If you read carefully my statement above, I simply stated that I won't judge any coin until I see it in hand. That comes from viewing 10,0000s (probably 100,000s by now) of coins in hand at lot viewing and at big shows. Like it or not Images lie, for the reasons I stated above. This opinion by me has nothing to do with whether I have grading skills or not and I don't get why you are even telling me what I can and cannot see. Hence drawing comparisons between images can lead to incorrect assessments. If you have a problem with my opinion, that is fine, but don't demean me by telling me I need to taking a grading seminar, yikes.
Mostly agree with this, Salzberg really did a bad thing for numismatics with his letter, and it seems to be an act of desperation for loosing market share to PCGS. Not the best way to try to recover that market share and will likely work in the opposite manner.
Best, SH
I neither believer or not believe until I see in hand, that is all I am saying and that is based on seeing lotso coins in hand and spending the last 7 years imaging 1000s of coins. Images lie. Could be the P67 has lotsa whacks too, but depending on how one images it, you can hide those. Could be the N69 was so poorly imaged that is brings out things that are not really as bad as it looks. If one takes the images at face value, looks like a N65 to me. NGC graders would not put a 65 into a 69 holder (hopefully), so again, I would have to see it in hand to see why the images are showing what they show. I simply would not make a decision on a coin until I see it in hand. Just sayin'
Best, SH
Salzberg did more damage to his market share problem than he will probably ever realize when he kicked the PCGS coins off of his registry. I for one won't go out of my way to support NGC any more, and I've told them so on their blog. I have heard the same thing from people who once gave Salzberg support. He has lost me and many others.
Your original post and that of another member shocked me. What have you learned after viewing 100K+ coins?
Obviously, coins are generally not authenticated or graded using photos! Nevertheless, many people post images and seek opinions by more qualified members such as you. Imagine your frustration if after posting an image all the replies stated: I can't tell without holding the actual coin. Why post at all? It comes across to me as: "I don't know anything; yet this is my opinion."
As for the comparison of the two slabs, I assure you that I can take a YN in basic grading 101 and show/tell HER what the characteristics of an MS-69 coin are and SHE would know using the posted image that the coin was over graded.
This proves what I have always heard/learned in grading seminars. It is not about how many coins you have seen; it's about...
I guess I expect too much from CU members. That is why I owe you a sincere apology.
Seems the PCGS 67 has been center punched several times on Liberty's neck. Could just be the images though, might look better in hand wink:
Your sarcastic apology is not appropriate behavior on these boards, nor is flaming out on me for posting an opinion. What I have learned viewing 100K of coins is that images lie and I won't make a comparison between these coins without seeing them in hand. You ever been burned by buying a coin online from an image only to find some hidden dings that were not in the image? Ever been pleasantly pleased when a coin looked like it had some problems in an image only to have it show up, view it in hand, and realize those problems were artifacts of the images? You ever spent time taking images of coins? If you had any of these experiences you may be able to identify where my opinion is coming from. For some reason, NGC graded this 69, they could have had a bad day and it may be overgraded, or it could be the images are not accurate. Both probably happen frequently. So all I am saying is that I won't try to compare these two coins until I see them in hand. So your demeaning, sarcastic statements should be left somewhere else.
My PCGS coins were registered at NGC. How those sets competed with other sets at the NGC registry was something I found interesting....but not particularly important.
My two sets at the NGC registry each dropped from a top 5 position to last place when PCGS coins were excluded. About the same time I received an email promoting the idea of crossing my coins from PCGS to NGC.
NGC's exclusion of PCGS coins from its registry and the Salzberg article will hopefully serve a useful purpose by ending the idea of including NGC coins in the PCGS registry. A second good effect of their email is it that it nudged me to unsubscribe from their future emails.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
Well, from my perspective, Mark's article was plain stupid.
He did not analyze why the pops have gone up at PCGS.
First, several rolls were finally broken up of the 1912-S nickel and garnered very high grades at PCGS.
Same with the 1945-S walker. More rolls are still coming.
For example, I own a fabulous original 1936-S BU quarter roll that I do not dare submit for grading as it will crash this date/mm pricing.
Also, the PCGS pops may have also become overstated more recently by virtue of cracking out and resubmitting hoping for a atill higher grade and only getting the same grade as before.
Furthermore, Mark ignores the huge number of raw modern coins that eventually get graded by PCGS. It takes a while but eventually the pop eventually explodes, eventually depressing prices. Classic collectors always warn modern collectors of this probability. This is a well known argument between "purist classic collectors" and "upstart modern coin collectors."
The 18th and 19th century coin collectors have NOT had the same overall extreme experience as Mark expressed. Yes, there is some inflation in grading. But not a 10 fold increase in pops.
In the area I like to collect, the J-2054 zinc plated steel experimental cents of 1942 produced AT the US Mint in late 1942 the pops in ALL GRADES have not changed at all at PCGS in the past 7 YEARS!
On the other hand, the J-2060 which are the brown "plastic " cents minted at various locations using the US Mint prepared dies, the pops have certainly grown sugnificantly as the prices have RISEN to entice holders of the raw pieces to submit for grading and not surprisingly at NGC which gives them a easy path to the previously unheard of MS-67 grade.
I happen to own three PCGS PR65 J-2060 and each one of them are far nicer than the one NGC MS-67 I also own !!! (PCGS calls them PR and NGC calls them MS which is not part of this discussion).
Undoubtedly NGC is out of control in the excessive grading of these 1942 "brown plastic patterns" and has suddenly graded 3 in MS-67 when their MS-66 is nicer than all of their own 67's.
This is not just my own opinion as CAC has agreed with my thinking as all of my PCGS and my old NGC slabs up to MS-66 has received a sticker. But none of the NGC MS-67.
I must confess that I do not care about the grades these 1942 "patterns" garner but only saved them in their original slabs to protect their possible future provenance. But throwing stones from a glass house simply is stupid.
I would submit them and flip them as quickly as I could (below current auction price to move them quickly before the price drop shows in the auction records) if they receive very high grades . The prices on the larger series have already gone down and probably have farther to fall.
I own (1) of the pop 4 finest known 1936-S coins ever graded by PCGS in their (30) year history. I have no worries about an original roll of 36-S BU quarters yielding anything significant that would impact the current pop. With any luck there might be one or two MS67 coins in the roll. Highly unlikely the finest known MS67+ pop would even go up by more than a single coin. I would bet the "under" that not one finest known MS67+ coin would slab out of the roll and increase the "top pop" population. In the VERY unikely event more than one finest known coin was slabbed from that roll, I would consider buying them all at a very fair price. PLEASE slab that roll in the next 30-60 days and call me Oreville!!
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin
Would it be better to submit and sell one at a time vs. having them graded and added to the pops at the same time?
**In the VERY unikely event more than one finest known coin was slabbed from that roll, I would consider buying them all at a very fair price. PLEASE slab that roll in the next 30-60 days and call me Oreville!! **
Knowing how tough it is just to get a MS67 grade today, and that PCGS has reviewed 2800 submissions of the 1936-s quarter to get the current number of 55 MS67's (2.0% ave. hit rate). In the last 10 yrs the hit rate has been 3.67%. So out of 40 coin roll the odds of getting a single MS67 from an original roll would be favorable. The first 1,000 submissions produced 2 MS67's. The next thousand another 18. And the next thousand so far 35. The rate since 1998 has been fairly consistent.
Oct 1998 total submissions 989, MS66 - 43, MS67 - 2
July 2007 total submissions 1923, MS66 - 229, MS67 - 20
Jan 2017 total submissions 2797, MS66 - 331, MS67 - 55
The best way to disperse a high grade roll is to grade them all at once. Figure their values based on the existing population and the newly graded coins. Offer them at a fixed price and do not alter the pricing structure. Do not try and hide anything. Perhaps give them to various dealers at a 10% discount but all at the same price. Do not let them undercut you. This way you won't destroy the market you are trying to sell into. DO NOT put them in auctions.
RR... My opinion on the roll yielding or not yielding a "finest known" coin relates to an MS67+ coin only. We are both in agreement that the roll could yield an MS67 coin or two. And, if that was the case, the net profit might not greatly exceed the cost of grading the (40) coin roll. MS67+ is the "money coin" and I would happily buy two or three or five more PCGS examples at the right price to "bury" in a bank vault for the next 10 or 15 years.
Wondercoin.
WC, we're on the same page. While the odds are pretty decent of producing an MS67 from that "random" roll, I doubt it would yield an MS67+. Though, one advantage to a full roll submission is that if there are some 66 and 67 coins, and then a coin that is clearly superior to them all, the odds increase of getting that 67+. But who knows. Oreville may have had his pick of the best original roll out of a small hoard of them.....and picked the big dog.
You are absolutely correct. In the case of this coin, I believe the clean cheek got it to MS-66 and the color bumped it up to a 67 because in all honesty, when I looked at the coin and thought it was correctly graded I DID NOT EVEN NOTICE the baggy neck due to the coin's eye appeal!
As I wrote, I expected more from the professionals on this website. Apparently, you have not been around a group of numismatists who CHALLENGE the opinions of each other in the ways we do. I should especially like to have a recording of the chatter that goes on inside a TPGS. I've heard stories of "four eyes" and "dirty hand lens" comments.
Nevertheless, I feel I'd be better off letting the female YN sit by me when I evaluate a coin's image on the Internet.
BTW, @spacehayduke
I am no expert at grading. I joined this site to learn things AND to POST honest, and helpful advice for people who may not know very much about coins. I am a sarcastic old man who does not suffer what I consider to be nonsense very well. My apology was sincere.
Your original post indicated to me that you needed some help with your grading skills - that's all. I've learned something in every grading seminar I have taken and suggested you take a class. That said, after revealing your impressive credentials and calling me out for some innocent advice, I'll never reach the high degree of numismatic grading talent that you have developed from looking at that vast number of coins! Thank you for setting me straight.
I didn't notice until today that PCGS (Don Willis) posted a reply to the NGC letter in its own sticky thread. FYI.
Sounds to me like the man is feeling somewhat desperate. About something. I think I know what's really bothering him. Ripping into PCGS will not help. Being #2 isn't all that bad. It could be worse.
I am simply saying I am not going to pass final judgement on a coin until I see it in hand. Stated again which you have not acknowledged - Pictures can lie (and do) and I gave you examples and it can be full of pitfalls to come to a final conclusion based solely on an image. I have to ask a question to myself when I see these images - why did NGC give it a 69? Clearly taking the image at face value, it is hard to grade it at 69. So the alternative is that NGC graders had a bad day (that day would include probably 2 graders and a finalizer that missed it), or the images aren't telling the whole story. My experience in talking to NGC graders, whom I have met 3, is that they know their stuff which is why they are hired to grade, hard to see how they could make that kind of a mistake on a regular basis. So I sit on the side of caution with that image - love to see that in hand before decreeing its fate. Nuff said on this let's get back to the topic of what the heck is Salzburg thinking when he sent that letter out?
Best, SH
The article lost all credibility when he leaded off and highlighted the 1912-S pops. It's is very well known that a couple rolls were working their way into the market. It was a very specific issue with this date. I would be shocked if he didn't know that. Using that coin to show gradeflation made me ignore the rest of his article
Let's see that roll oreville! Could the first ever MS68 be in there??
He is the head of ngc.........what do you expect?!
@spacehayduke: "Nuff said on this let's get back to the topic of what the heck is Salzburg thinking when he sent that letter out?" Best, SH
Ditto. That is exactly what I was thinking - you beat me to it! Best to you also.
Full disclosure, for multiple reasons, I prefer NCG over all the other TPGS. Nevertheless, I think the Willis letter was very well done. First Round: Technical knockout. PCGS wins!
I was just trying to make a point about Mark's article by using my 1936-S BU 25c roll as an example.
The last time i broke a roll was a mint marked lincoln cent roll from the late 1920's' that I bought in 1968. Out of 50 cents over 15 garnered MS-67RD
That was well over 10 years ago!
I miss my BU cent roll!
Five years ago I bought a petite head, large letters 1843 cent at auction. NGC AU58. When I cracked it out for my Dansco album I discovered a big rim ding that was hidden behind the holder's solid white prong.
I complained to NGC with pictures from the auction and raw ones. They wouldn't own up to it. The only offer I got was that they'd reholder the coin in the same fashion so I could sell it.
That is not what I expect from a major TPG. I ended my relationship with NGC then.
Lance.
Sorry, I meant a non-minted marked lincoln cent from the 1920's!